Battle Of The Holy Grails

[jar]

Really?? I dunno I find it quite attractive though it is not functional or dependable at all.

And that sums it up. I carry pens in a shirt pocket so a clip that is neither functional nor dependable is a deal killer.

[ink-syringe]

My Visconti collection is...zero. Hate that Bridge clip.

 

 

 

The one brand I never have to worry I am going to lust after and lose my mind over. Most of the designs do nothing for me, and then there are the QC issues, & the prices. Yowl. Visconti is everything I don't want a pen to be.

 

But admittedly I like mid-century pen designs best. I have yet to see a Visconti i think is more beautiful or desirable than, say, an Aurora 88P or a Pelikan 400nn Tortoise or Montblanc 254 (to say in Europe) or even a Lamy 27n.

Edited November 16, 2016 by ink-syringe

[ItwasLuck]

 

 

 

The one brand I never have to worry I am going to lust after and lose my mind over. Most of the designs do nothing for me, and then there are the QC issues, & the prices. Yowl. Visconti is everything I don't want a pen to be.

 

But admittedly I like mid-century pen designs best. I have yet to see a Visconti i think is more beautiful or desirable than, say, an Aurora 88P or a Pelikan 400nn Tortoise or Montblanc 254 (to say in Europe) or even a Lamy 27n.

 

Woah, not sure if I ever heard someone say something like that about Visconti , usually I hear people say the opposite (apart from price, yes they are expensive!). But I'm glad to hear differing opinions! =)

I love Viscontis, I don't think that comes as a surprise, but I agree in recent years Visconti has had severe Q/C issues mainly regarding their Pd nibs and some of their acryloid LEs being stained even when brand new! This includes recent models such as the HS Crystal and London Fogs. Also issues with some models not having enough "swirls" on them. That is quite poor for a company that is the 2nd most recognized high end luxury brand for modern FPs, 2nd only to MB of course, and for a company that sells their pens for double they should be selling them for.

But thankfully Visconti pens in the past have always had top notch Q/C, this is pre-Pd error of course. If I were to buy another Visconti, it would only because of the looks and I would definitely have to try out the nibs myself in person. I think it will be a while till my next Visconti purchase considering I only love Visconti's OMD LE's and I prefer my 18K Visconti nibs, the Pd nibs are way too wet for extensive writing on a daily basis (at least for my writing needs).

 

Those are some beautiful pens but I think it's unfair to speak about desirability when comparing vintage pens to modern pens. Vintage pens, are invariably always going to be more sought after because they are no longer produced. Visconti try to mimick this with their stupid releases of 1000/1000 LE models every now and then, what's the point of labelling it LE when it's not really LE. Of course they didn't do this before, I mean the Australis only has 150 pens and are extremely hard to find, same with the Kakadu with even less 100/100 (I have the last produced one too). But hey, no FP company is perfect and I guess Visconti are really trying to compete with MB's recognition via their use of the term "Dream touch" but it seems to me ever since they started using Palladium nibs, their pens have been plagued with various Q/C issues. Anyways, apart from my disliking of the Lamy 27N, I would love to get my hands on a Aurora 88P or MB 254! They won't replace my Visconti Kakadu+Pilot 823 combo as my daily writers but would be nice to have them and use every now and then.

Edited November 16, 2016 by ItwasLuck

[zaddick]

ItWasLuck - you are mislead if you think Visconti QC issues only started a few years ago. There have been QC issues for a long time but I agree there was a big uptick with the Pd nibs and swirl pens. Many of the old "squaring the circle" pens had facets that did not line up and thr older power filler pens were prone to burping. People just don't talk about the issues as much because they no longer make pens with these issues.

 

I used to have a lot more Visconti pens than I do today because of those issues.

 

My father also used to buy Maserati cars. Apparently being a fool for a pretty Italian with issues runs in the family.

[ItwasLuck]

ItWasLuck - you are mislead if you think Visconti QC issues only started a few years ago. There have been QC issues for a long time but I agree there was a big uptick with the Pd nibs and swirl pens. Many of the old "squaring the circle" pens had facets that did not line up and thr older power filler pens were prone to burping. People just don't talk about the issues as much because they no longer make pens with these issues.

 

I used to have a lot more Visconti pens than I do today because of those issues.

 

My father also used to buy Maserati cars. Apparently being a fool for a pretty Italian with issues runs in the family.

Oh yes Italians with their Q/C issues, i had a old 07 quattroporte that would always have electrical issues. Ended up selling it few years later haha. But yes Visconti had Q/C issues back then but their nibs were never horrible the way they are now and yes some of their pens didn't line up properly. Mine lines up perfectly and if I ever buy another Visconti I'll make sure the seller checks these things before sending them out to me or if I'm at a brick and mortar shop I'll check myself.

Lot of people complain about Visconti and their Q/C problems when there is a simple solution, just go try the pen out yourself before buying.

Anyways I think we can all agree that Visconti needs to work on their Q/C issues especially nowadays. Simply unacceptable for a company that is considered 2nd to MB.

Edited November 17, 2016 by ItwasLuck

[jar]

Simply unacceptable for a company that is considered 2nd to MB.

Who in their right mind considers Visconti as second to Montblanc? Or even first among Italian makers?

[ItwasLuck]

Who in their right mind considers Visconti as second to Montblanc? Or even first among Italian makers?

 

Maybe I should be more specific. In terms of volume of pens costing over 500 dollars sold on a yearly basis, Montblanc sell the the most, and Visconti is 2nd in that regard. So you'll have to ignore companies like OMAS that don't function as a company in 2016...

Edited November 17, 2016 by ItwasLuck

[jar]

 

Maybe I should be more specific. In terms of volume of pens costing over 500 dollars sold on a yearly basis, Montblanc sell the the most, and Visconti is 2nd in that regard. So you'll have to ignore companies like OMAS that don't function as a company in 2016...

I'd love to see the source for that. I'd still be very surprised considering there are companies like Ferrari da Varese and Aurora and Pilot and Sailor and Platinum and Caran d'Ache and Dunhill and Cartier and ...

[ItwasLuck]

I'd love to see the source for that. I'd still be very surprised considering there are companies like Ferrari da Varese and Aurora and Pilot and Sailor and Platinum and Caran d'Ache and Dunhill and Cartier and ...

 

Agreed, Aurora should have been 2nd but suprisingly it's Visconti. I'll definitely edit this post when I have the source for you. =) Pilot's 823 wouldn't count BTW or else that would have easily beat Visconti lol, and Maki-e pens in general are sold in very low volumes.

[FOUR X FOUR]

Thank God we have different tastes. I think Visconti makes one helluva pen. The bridge clip looks gorgeous and I've always found it to be very functional.

[katanankes]

 

Agreed, Aurora should have been 2nd but suprisingly it's Visconti. I'll definitely edit this post when I have the source for you. =) Pilot's 823 wouldn't count BTW or else that would have easily beat Visconti lol, and Maki-e pens in general are sold in very low volumes.

 

I think I know the source... it is Visconti's founder Dante Del Vecchio interviewed by Brian Goulet in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moAMDurCPRk.

 

Of course it is a biased source, but it says that Visconti is number 2 in North America in the luxury pen market.

 

Time ago I looked up the income statements of Italian pen companies, I remember Visconti had revenues for around 5 million dollars, mostly outside Italy. Aurora had bigger revenues, but mostly in Italy.

 

I have no idea what to make of this statement. Maybe if we look at only the number of pens sold valued above 500 or 600 usd, it may be that Visconti is a distant second after MB.

[ItwasLuck]

 

I think I know the source... it is Visconti's founder Dante Del Vecchio interviewed by Brian Goulet in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moAMDurCPRk.

 

Of course it is a biased source, but it says that Visconti is number 2 in North America in the luxury pen market.

 

Time ago I looked up the income statements of Italian pen companies, I remember Visconti had revenues for around 5 million dollars, mostly outside Italy. Aurora had bigger revenues, but mostly in Italy.

 

I have no idea what to make of this statement. Maybe if we look at only the number of pens sold valued above 500 or 600 usd, it may be that Visconti is a distant second after MB.

 

It was actually a source from a fountain pen shop in NYC, I was curious as to what was their best selling pens and of course, MB was first, so I asked about the second where I got the answer Visconti. I did come across a source showing sales of pens in 2013-14 divided by brand, I just can't seem to find it.

And yes, in terms of number of pens sold valued over 500 dollars on a yearly basis, Visconti is second to MB, a very distance second, but second nonetheless.

Edited November 19, 2016 by ItwasLuck

[FriendAmos]

 

It was actually a source from a fountain pen shop in NYC, I was curious as to what was their best selling pens and of course, MB was first, so I asked about the second where I got the answer Visconti. I did come across a source showing sales of pens in 2013-14 divided by brand, I just can't seem to find it.

And yes, in terms of number of pens sold valued over 500 dollars on a yearly basis, Visconti is second to MB, a very distance second, but second nonetheless.

 

It appears that the shop gave you information on their sales. I would not generalize from that. It is an "interesting" question, and perhaps we can get an answer with reliable data (e.g. of the 2013-2014 type that you mention).

[ItwasLuck]

 

It appears that the shop gave you information on their sales. I would not generalize from that. It is an "interesting" question, and perhaps we can get an answer with reliable data (e.g. of the 2013-2014 type that you mention).

 

Definitely, the shop gave me information on their sales, this is not a good indicator on overall, global sales however, they were speaking of their other retailer shops as well throughout the country. I'll definitely look for the 2013-14 data that I mentioned earlier, God everything was labelled so nicely per brand even. Have to find it!

[youstruckgold]

Grail pens are very personal and this post is about you not me; so here is my 2 cents worth.

 

I have had all of your proposals except the Pelikan; so I can't comment on the 1000 (I have an 800; but that's still a smaller pen).

 

Of the pens you mention, it really depends what it is that you like in a pen. The 149 tends to be the pen that every Quillophyle needs to have in their collection. I know MB's "precious resin" can get villified; they are often dismissed as more "luxury item" than fountainpen; and sometime the mere holding of a MB149 for size and familiarity alone can make its owner seem a little conspicuous; but don't let that put you off. The 149 is a quality pen and, with a good nib (and my 90th anniversary rose gold has a stunner) they are well balanced and a joy to write with.

 

The Viscontis are very different pens. Most non-quillos will not know what they are. Each represents a different feel so, again, it depends on what nurtures your inner quill. The Divina (especially the full size) is a beautiful pen (the Blue is my favourite - but the red is cool too). This is a stand out pen, so, again, if being obvious is not your thing, the Divina may be a bit much (even the black is a stand out as the silver streams sparkle in the light). The Homosapiens is a more subtle pen (presuming you are talking the original lava iteration and not the crystal, florentine hills, London fog etc). My preference on the lava is the bronze; but it works in most of its iterations. The lava is a talking point and feels good in the hand. This pen contrasts with the previous two as it says "I know what I have and I don't need to shout about it".

 

Your only challenge with the Viscontis are: 1. nib quality control (good nibs are great; but I have sent many off to nibmeisters to have them fixed); 2. filling system - the power filler holds heaps of ink; but are a challenge to clean unless you remove the nib unit.

 

Which leads me to the KOP. Again there are a lot of choices here; in colour, material and nibs. WIth the Sailor you can be subtle (although it's a big pen), showy (with a bright colour or celluloid) and extremely expressive (so very many nib choices!). I have a couple of KOPs and they are magnificent pens. For me, the basic resin model is nice; but not different enough to class it as a grail pen in the competition you have here. Start moving to celluloid however (or try a Classic Pens LB5) and you have an extraordinary and expressive fountain pen that you'll have, use and love for a lifetime. My only warning is the filling system. Such a beautiful pen, and still cartridge converter (and not a huge capacity either). KOP's converter is certainly one of the nicest looking out there (except Nakaya's gold fish converters) but for such a large and premium priced pen, the lack of a piston filler is a disappointment.

 

Finally Nakaya. Again you have many choices here so your inner grail has many possibilities (and your inner wallet, many options to become your th-inner wallet). It is hard not to love Urushi. It feels warm in your hands, it can evolve with use (similar in concept to the developing patina on brass and copper pens, but this time with subtle variations in colour). Some of the patterns are extremely beautiful; the stoppers can be wonderful and even the converters can be works of art. Again, I have a few Nakayas and I am fond of them. Nevertheless, I do not use them as often as I might as the nibs have never really excited me. They're not bad; just not extraordinary; and the nib is, in the end, the heart of the pen. I am also reluctant to take my Nakaya's to work or out into the big, bad world. So, yet again, your grail-style will dictate what is most important to you. If you want a different pen that is beautiful to look at and hold, the Nakaya is a great example.

 

So there you have it. Everything ultimately depends on what it is about these pens most appeals to you. In the end I can give you this one piece of advice: a grail, by definition, is unobtainable. Therefore if we are talking wishes unlikely to come true, then each of these pens are worthy Grails. If however, by "Grail" you just mean a fountain pen that will make you spend more money than you would prefer but it's not that out of reach; then be warned - the grail purchased remains the grail unrealised as it will lead your mind to new grails, new thoughts and an overwhelming need to win tatts!

[ItwasLuck]

Grail pens are very personal and this post is about you not me; so here is my 2 cents worth.

 

I have had all of your proposals except the Pelikan; so I can't comment on the 1000 (I have an 800; but that's still a smaller pen).

 

Of the pens you mention, it really depends what it is that you like in a pen. The 149 tends to be the pen that every Quillophyle needs to have in their collection. I know MB's "precious resin" can get villified; they are often dismissed as more "luxury item" than fountainpen; and sometime the mere holding of a MB149 for size and familiarity alone can make its owner seem a little conspicuous; but don't let that put you off. The 149 is a quality pen and, with a good nib (and my 90th anniversary rose gold has a stunner) they are well balanced and a joy to write with.

 

The Viscontis are very different pens. Most non-quillos will not know what they are. Each represents a different feel so, again, it depends on what nurtures your inner quill. The Divina (especially the full size) is a beautiful pen (the Blue is my favourite - but the red is cool too). This is a stand out pen, so, again, if being obvious is not your thing, the Divina may be a bit much (even the black is a stand out as the silver streams sparkle in the light). The Homosapiens is a more subtle pen (presuming you are talking the original lava iteration and not the crystal, florentine hills, London fog etc). My preference on the lava is the bronze; but it works in most of its iterations. The lava is a talking point and feels good in the hand. This pen contrasts with the previous two as it says "I know what I have and I don't need to shout about it".

 

Your only challenge with the Viscontis are: 1. nib quality control (good nibs are great; but I have sent many off to nibmeisters to have them fixed); 2. filling system - the power filler holds heaps of ink; but are a challenge to clean unless you remove the nib unit.

 

Which leads me to the KOP. Again there are a lot of choices here; in colour, material and nibs. WIth the Sailor you can be subtle (although it's a big pen), showy (with a bright colour or celluloid) and extremely expressive (so very many nib choices!). I have a couple of KOPs and they are magnificent pens. For me, the basic resin model is nice; but not different enough to class it as a grail pen in the competition you have here. Start moving to celluloid however (or try a Classic Pens LB5) and you have an extraordinary and expressive fountain pen that you'll have, use and love for a lifetime. My only warning is the filling system. Such a beautiful pen, and still cartridge converter (and not a huge capacity either). KOP's converter is certainly one of the nicest looking out there (except Nakaya's gold fish converters) but for such a large and premium priced pen, the lack of a piston filler is a disappointment.

 

Finally Nakaya. Again you have many choices here so your inner grail has many possibilities (and your inner wallet, many options to become your th-inner wallet). It is hard not to love Urushi. It feels warm in your hands, it can evolve with use (similar in concept to the developing patina on brass and copper pens, but this time with subtle variations in colour). Some of the patterns are extremely beautiful; the stoppers can be wonderful and even the converters can be works of art. Again, I have a few Nakayas and I am fond of them. Nevertheless, I do not use them as often as I might as the nibs have never really excited me. They're not bad; just not extraordinary; and the nib is, in the end, the heart of the pen. I am also reluctant to take my Nakaya's to work or out into the big, bad world. So, yet again, your grail-style will dictate what is most important to you. If you want a different pen that is beautiful to look at and hold, the Nakaya is a great example.

 

So there you have it. Everything ultimately depends on what it is about these pens most appeals to you. In the end I can give you this one piece of advice: a grail, by definition, is unobtainable. Therefore if we are talking wishes unlikely to come true, then each of these pens are worthy Grails. If however, by "Grail" you just mean a fountain pen that will make you spend more money than you would prefer but it's not that out of reach; then be warned - the grail purchased remains the grail unrealised as it will lead your mind to new grails, new thoughts and an overwhelming need to win tatts!

 

Wow, found your post to be very much in line with my own personal preferences which is quite rare because of the magnitude of pen companies being discussed! =D

Would really love to hear your opinion on Visconti's OMD and OMD LE's however. I have quite a similar opinion about the HS and the Divina however I do find recent HS LE's quite interesting due to their increased ink capacity (2.97ml as compared to 1.5ml). Looks like I caught the Visconti-bug ;(, if they keep releasing LE pens with high ink capacities, I'll be forced to buy them all argh!

 

Would just like to note something about cleaning Visconti's 'Double Reservoir Power Fillers' though, as long as you have the nib removal tool (unfortunately it is specific to Visconti =/) you can quite easily flush the pens after removing the nib/feed unit.

Edited November 21, 2016 by ItwasLuck

[eyesa]

While I haven't owned or even tried most of these pens (my hands and wallet are below standard,) I will say Grail pens are what the name implies: a chimera. With a few years of experience (and my share of mid-sized, mid-level pens) my thoughts on grail pens have morphed as much as spring clouds. There is no perfect pen, only an approximation. As my experience and use has changed, so have my desires. I want a workhorse that's also pretty; a pen that can and does travel the world (albeit, in a secure pen sleeve around my neck.)

And a pen that makes me want to write, and write with it EVERY time. Since I have a scant handful of go-to inks (but have tried many more), I want enough pens of similar quality, to pick up and use at will.

Of course others will disagree and love the art of the chase. For my personality, largely utilitarian and practical but with a large dose of aesthetic, I've found MY pen(s) and stop there. Like any love, does that mean I stop looking? No. But I'm savvy enough to know my own inclinations, so can admire without possessing.
Love this thread! Thanks to all who've posted!

Edited December 1, 2016 by eyesa

[Aditkamath26]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

[fb1949]

Hi,

 

Among all the grail pens you have here listed, I wil retain only one : MB 149.

 

BUT ONLY :

 

- MB 149 in celluloid from the 50ies with semi-flex to flex nibs AND TELESCOPIC PISTON SYSTEM. It holds a tad more than 3 ml of ink, i. e. enough to forget about refilling at all l ends !

 

- or at least 60ies resin 149 with same semi-flex to flex nibs AND LARGE DIAMETER TANK & ELASTOMERE SEAL holding around 2,4 ml of ink.

 

All the rest, modern 149, Pel M 1000 and so on (not talking about C/C equiped items) are genuine jokes considering large ink capacity ! Wrtiting with a grail pen does not mean travelling around with your bottle ok ink !

 

IMHO.

[mulrich]

An old thread and debate but fun none-the-less. And I think the question would be better posed as "which of these flagship pens is the best" instead of grail pens since everyone's definition of 'grail' is different. And even deciding between the flagships is a personal preference.

 

For me, each of the pens have pros and cons. I love Sailor nibs, especially their speciality nibs. Visconti's hook-safe cap is my favorite capping system and they come in interesting materials. Nakaya offers very unique finishes that adapt to the user over time. The 149 is a solid overall performer.