Which Ink Lines Are Overpriced?

[chromantic]

26 minutes ago, InesF said:

It was Turquoise.

Tried in 5 different pens, the lines drawn were more pale than the lines of a grid paper - almost invisible.

 

That almost sounds like Gulf Blue. I wonder if you got a mislabeled bottle.

 

Speaking of GvFC, the $32 price does seem high, even given that's for 75ml. Yet the cartridges are very reasonable, a 6-pack for $5, cheaper than many of their competitors.

[PithyProlix]

10 minutes ago, chromantic said:

 

That almost sounds like Gulf Blue. I wonder if you got a mislabeled bottle.

 

Speaking of GvFC, the $32 price does seem high, even given that's for 75ml. Yet the cartridges are very reasonable, a 6-pack for $5, cheaper than many of their competitors.

 

Also speaking of GvFC, I looked again at current prices and $32 isn't great but not out of line. BTW, I made a note of the price when Cult Pens had it on sale for £13.33 (VAT excluded) (I should have bought some then - hopefully that will come around again.)

[Dione]

1 hour ago, RJS said:

There's not going to be that much interest in foreigners signing up for a UK VAT scheme that is there just to make things simpler for Brits that import items valued between £15 and £150, unfortunately.

 

I made the comment on the bottles because I saw your message about how the price of the glass was impacting things, and thought you might be curious about how much manufacturers are likely paying for their bottles.  I'd also wager the fill cost of ink is also very low, unless Diamine use infinitely cheaper ingredients than everyone else (which I doubt!).

This is why I made my original comment. For myself as a buyer, prices of glass bottles of ink from Asia tend to be high and it isn't just the price of the ink. It's already high to start with when shipping is included and even after that they haven't included VAT so it's going to get higher before it arrives here. That's why I think they are overpriced. I can buy ink at a reasonable price in the UK or in the US so that's what I do.

[RJS]

1 hour ago, Dione said:

This is why I made my original comment. For myself as a buyer, prices of glass bottles of ink from Asia tend to be high and it isn't just the price of the ink. It's already high to start with when shipping is included and even after that they haven't included VAT so it's going to get higher before it arrives here. That's why I think they are overpriced. I can buy ink at a reasonable price in the UK or in the US so that's what I do.

If buying one bottle from Asia, yes, shipping recently has become a real pain thanks to covid and associated prices gouging. All the "free postage" Japanese sellers have taken away that offer. It would help if companies like Pilot didn't do things multiply the Japanese retail price of their ink by 4 to calculate the UK RRP.

[ParramattaPaul]

2 hours ago, IlikeInksandIcannotlie said:

You will have to exclude some Indian and Chinese inks, otherwise I'm not sure if Diamine or Noodler's ( in the US) will be in the bargain range...

A quick look at a couple of US online sellers shows Diamine selling for USD 15 to 20.for the large bottles. 

 

I thought Noodlers was American.  Was i wrong?

[IlikeInksandIcannotlie]

Indian inks sell for around half a dollar for 60 ml in the home markets, and probably the Chinese ones sell for a similar amount. And yes, Noodler's is American.

[RJS]

8 minutes ago, ParramattaPaul said:

A quick look at a couple of US online sellers shows Diamine selling for USD 15 to 20.for the large bottles. 

The 30ml bottles are only $7 USD in American stores, though that is still double the going rate in the UK.

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

8 hours ago, PithyProlix said:

Another potential consideration is buying ink because it has a low price per unit and is, thus, perceived to be a good value but some proportion of the ink never gets used, for whatever reason.

 

Consider this scenario:

You buy, say, Hero 233 Blue, which comes in a 60ml bottle, because you like the color, performance, etc. and the price is super low per unit - I've seen it, shipped, for about $0.035/ml ($2.12/60 ml bottle). You fill your pen with it - let's assume you make one fill of 1 ml and use it all - you enjoy using it, the color, etc. but then you soon buy a similarly-colored blue ink you like much better, except it is much more expensive, say a Sailor Ink Studio ink - $0.75/ml ($15.00/20 ml bottle), over 21x more expensive per unit than the Hero ink. So you've used only 1 ml of Hero 233, you put it in the back of your drawer, never to use it again, because you very much prefer the Sailor Ink Studio ink. You use up the entire bottle of the Sailor ink.

 

The ink you don't use (or gift to someone, etc.) is worth nothing. So, the bottle of Hero 233 Blue is now effectively $2.12/ml - almost 3x more 'expensive' than the Sailor ink. And we are not even considering the value of the enjoyment you get from the Sailor ink because it is difficult to quantify. 

So, in this scenario, which of the two inks is 'overpriced'? Hero? Sailor? Both? Neither?

I still think it's the sailor ink that is overpriced. Because in your scenario there was nothing wrong with the Hero ink, you just chose not to use it, in favour of using another ink in its place. That is not the fault of the ink.  On a side note: wow... $2.12 for a bottle of ink... just... wow... $11 for a bottle of waterman, or for a bottle of quink is about as cheap as it gets here for an individual bottle. A bottle of Noodler's or Diamine is cheaper on a per ml basis

 

3 hours ago, IlikeInksandIcannotlie said:

Thank you for pointing that out. I did not think that the subject would be so controversial in the first place, else I might not have started the thread.

YW. It's not particularly controversial IMO, some people just like to stir the pot.

 

1 hour ago, ParramattaPaul said:

A quick look at a couple of US online sellers shows Diamine selling for USD 15 to 20.for the large bottles. 

 

I thought Noodlers was American.  Was i wrong?

Noodler's is very much American.

 

55 minutes ago, IlikeInksandIcannotlie said:

Indian inks sell for around half a dollar for 60 ml in the home markets, and probably the Chinese ones sell for a similar amount. And yes, Noodler's is American.

$0.50 for 60ml... wow... you don't even buy the glass for that price in North America... (https://www.bottlestore.com/4oz-flint-sample-round-glass-jar-48-400-neck.html) I am very jealous. The cheapest two inks in North America are diamine and noodler's (to the best of my knowledge) on a per ml basis. 

[A Smug Dill]

4 hours ago, vtgt said:

It ignores the attitude and nuances in buyer activity. One has to wonder why we browse this buyer forum if we're going to ignore buyers.

 

The demand side of the equation is not a single like-minded collective. Individual buyer sentiment means very little, and is no basis for judging whether a product is overpriced in the market, unless that sentiment happens to align with what turns out to be the consensus (as opposed to presuming that it is representative of the majority view, without first having been proven to be so). We're not ignoring buyers, but simply giving the individual buyer's view ‘due respect’ and frame it as one voice out of many thousands or millions, and carrying commensurately little weight in market dynamics.

 

Personally I like to encourage the consumer base to be as diverse in values and assessment strategies as possible. Being inclusive is to dilute the relative importance of every faction; but luckily, the supply side often only need to focus on enticing and securing the custom of a subset of a niche in order to make its revenue and sales targets, and that is a valid basis for pricing, instead of trying to please ‘everyone’ or just more consumers. At high prices and profit margins, manufacturers don't need so many loyal customers, although catering to a small core group as a revenue source is a riskier strategy than having broader market appeal.

[ENewton]

9 hours ago, PithyProlix said:

Another potential consideration is buying ink because it has a low price per unit and is, thus, perceived to be a good value but some proportion of the ink never gets used, for whatever reason.

 

Consider this scenario:

You buy, say, Hero 233 Blue, which comes in a 60ml bottle, because you like the color, performance, etc. and the price is super low per unit - I've seen it, shipped, for about $0.035/ml ($2.12/60 ml bottle). You fill your pen with it - let's assume you make one fill of 1 ml and use it all - you enjoy using it, the color, etc. but then you soon buy a similarly-colored blue ink you like much better, except it is much more expensive, say a Sailor Ink Studio ink - $0.75/ml ($15.00/20 ml bottle), over 21x more expensive per unit than the Hero ink. So you've used only 1 ml of Hero 233, you put it in the back of your drawer, never to use it again, because you very much prefer the Sailor Ink Studio ink. You use up the entire bottle of the Sailor ink.

 

The ink you don't use (or gift to someone, etc.) is worth nothing. So, the bottle of Hero 233 Blue is now effectively $2.12/ml - almost 3x more 'expensive' than the Sailor ink. And we are not even considering the value of the enjoyment you get from the Sailor ink because it is difficult to quantify. 

So, in this scenario, which of the two inks is 'overpriced'? Hero? Sailor? Both? Neither?

 

On a similar note, for years I looked for the perfect purple for me but resisted the lure of Sailor Kobe Suma Purple, because the price was so much higher than that of any of my other inks.  But finally I splurged and realized that, had I bought Suma Purple in the first place, I would have saved the money I had spent on other bottles that, collectively, cost me more than Suma Purple.  

 

 

[PithyProlix]

1 hour ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

I still think it's the sailor ink that is overpriced. Because in your scenario there was nothing wrong with the Hero ink, you just chose not to use it, in favour of using another ink in its place. That is not the fault of the ink.  

 

I understand your point (and tend to agree with you wrt Sailor Ink Studio) but there are different notions of a product's value. Value can be a function of a product's quality and/or it can be a function of the benefit a particular consumer gets from the product. People who buy and love Sailor Ink Studio Ink are not necessarily making poor decisions.

[A Smug Dill]

2 minutes ago, PithyProlix said:

Value can be a function of a product's quality and/or it can be a function of the benefit a particular consumer gets from the product.

 

Moreover, value is not logically the same thing as bang-for-buck. If I can get (a subjectively assessed nominal value) $30 value from either writing with a 50ml bottle of ink that cost me $5 or one that cost me $20, it does not follow that I was getting poor value and/or ripped off buying the $20 bottle. As I said before, it's not a question of optimisation — how I can either minimise my spend or maximise my margin — when looking at whether I'm getting my money's worth (from having paid the asking price) from a particular purchase.

[sgphototn]

14 hours ago, RJS said:

I dislike the argument that items cannot be overpriced if someone is willing to buy them. Let's look at moisturisers, for example, a £5 tub and a £100 tub. The £5 tub costs the manufacturer 25p to fill, and the ingredients are decent and do a good job. The £100 tub is made in the same factory and contains the same ingredients, plus some weird extras that are little more than snake oil, that bring the cost to fill up to 90p. The £100 tub gets a fancy luxury brand name on it, and people are happy to buy it.

Perhaps that £100 tub was made of 'precious resin' while the £5 tub was made of ordinary plastic. 😄

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

14 minutes ago, PithyProlix said:

 

I understand your point (and tend to agree with you wrt Sailor Ink Studio) but there are different notions of a product's value. Value can be a function of a product's quality and/or it can be a function of the benefit a particular consumer gets from the product. People who buy and love Sailor Ink Studio Ink are not necessarily making poor decisions.

 

7 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Moreover, value is not logically the same thing as bang-for-buck. If I can get (a subjectively assessed nominal value) $30 value from either writing with a 50ml bottle of ink that cost me $5 or one that cost me $20, it does not follow that I was getting poor value and/or ripped off buying the $20 bottle. As I said before, it's not a question of optimisation — how I can either minimise my spend or maximise my margin — when looking at whether I'm getting my money's worth (from having paid the asking price) from a particular purchase.

I understand both your points, but in the initial example, the sailor ink is still the "overpriced" ink for the simple fact that the hero ink was under utilized does not mean it was not appropriately priced, it simply means the user failed to take advantage of that.

 

From the point of view of "what usefulness did the user get for their money" then yes, the hero was a waste, but from an objective POV, the hero ink was a good value that the user simply failed to capitalize on.

 

The original premise was that the hero ink was fine, but that the user found one they liked better. That is no fault of the hero ink, since it was "fine". I dunno if I'm making sense to anyone here except myself...   

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

3 minutes ago, sgphototn said:

Perhaps that £100 tub was made of 'precious resin' while the £5 tub was made of ordinary plastic. 😄

🤪😆

and we're back to "marketing" and "branding"  

hahaha

[JakobS]

For me the inks I find most unusable, are the the ones I find overpriced. I don't mean that they aren't the exact hue I hope for, or don't have some unique feature like shimmer, sheen, or shading that I might of hoped to squeeze out of it, but functionally do not flow from the pen, or are basically paint. The only brand that has provided me with inks like this is Noodlers. Eternal Brown, Polar Brown, and La Couleur Royale all smell like paint, and only La Couleur Royale has any flow to it. If I wanted to write with paint, 3oz is a few dollars, so Noodlers is at least 6x more expensive than what I see as a comparative product. Then to add on the inconsistencies of ink color between bottles of the same named colors of ink that is now sold as a "feature", is rising to beyond the pale of receiving any value for the money........

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

wow... $11 for a bottle of waterman, or for a bottle of quink is about as cheap as it gets here for an individual bottle.

 

I just had a look on Amazon.ca, and must say I'm surprised. On Prime Day just past, I ordered three bottles of Waterman Tender Purple for A$6.40 apiece delivered. (Never mind that Australia Post completely buggered up the delivery of the order that was a gift to a family friend, and so now I have to take issue with Amazon Australia and follow up.)

 

Some of us recently bought 30ml bottles of Herbin Cacao du Brésil ink for A$5 (or even as low as A$4.50, with additional discount) apiece recently from Milligram Outlet. (There was no avoiding the per-order shipping charges, though, even for within-Australia delivery.) Or 50ml bottles of Jacques Herbin Noir Abyssal for A$5 apiece; I bought seven in one go, even though I have never used the ink before, and quite frankly was never interested in it before. Eight 50ml bottles of Robert Oster Sydney Lavender ink at A$5 apiece, as well.

 

That should hardly be the basis for any assessment on my part as to whether inks that would cost me more than $5/50ml is overpriced, though, just because I ‘scored’ bargains once upon a time.

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

45 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

I just had a look on Amazon.ca, and must say I'm surprised. On Prime Day just past, I ordered three bottles of Waterman Tender Purple for A$6.40 apiece delivered. (Never mind that Australia Post completely buggered up the delivery of the order that was a gift to a family friend, and so now I have to take issue with Amazon Australia and follow up.)

 

Some of us recently bought 30ml bottles of Herbin Cacao du Brésil ink for A$5 (or even as low as A$4.50, with additional discount) apiece recently from Milligram Outlet. (There was no avoiding the per-order shipping charges, though, even for within-Australia delivery.) Or 50ml bottles of Jacques Herbin Noir Abyssal for A$5 apiece; I bought seven in one go, even though I have never used the ink before, and quite frankly was never interested in it before. Eight 50ml bottles of Robert Oster Sydney Lavender ink at A$5 apiece, as well.

 

That should hardly be the basis for any assessment on my part as to whether inks that would cost me more than $5/50ml is overpriced, though, just because I ‘scored’ bargains once upon a time.

I dunno what amazon charges for ink off the top of my head.

As a policy I try and avoid giving amazon money if at all reasonably possible.

I quoted the prices from my usual purveyor of all things FP: wonderpens.ca

I've also dealt with a local store in town and with Stylo.ca, all three have similar enough prices that the price has no real effect on who I purchase from. I choose who to purchase from based mostly on availability. 

 

I will note that some sellers on amazon.ca purposely jack prices outrageously:

compare these two listings, who I can only assume with such a weird name are the same seller:

https://www.amazon.ca/Version-Vacumatic-Double-Fountain-window/dp/B07RKVYV94/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=czxwyst&qid=1625067737&sr=8-3

https://www.amazon.com/czxwyst-Steel-Vacumatic-Fountain-window/dp/B07CT11T15/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=wing+sung+601&qid=1625067753&sr=8-3

same product, twice the price. and no, the US to CAD exchange is not .5 not even close.

 

As I stated in the lathe buying thread:

Welcome to Canada, now empty your wallet and bend over.

 

[Aether]

Considering the price of ink you have factor out the cost of shipping.   These are separate costs.  I still believe that an industry average price can be calculated, i.e. on average ink for fountain pens costs 20c per 1ml, and go from there.

 

Utility cost, or value to the consumer, is also a separate cost and should only be applied in personal decision-making and not in establishing average price of ink. 

[inkstainedruth]

10 hours ago, InesF said:

It was Turquoise.

Tried in 5 different pens, the lines drawn were more pale than the lines of a grid paper - almost invisible.

So you're saying it would make a great non-repro blue?  

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth