Which Ink Lines Are Overpriced?

[Dione]

Because many ink bottles are made from glass the pricing structure has to reflect the distance it needs to travel as well as the bottle and it's contents as shipping has become really expensive for items like this. Therefore inks that seem to be overpriced to me are those from Japan, China and South Korea as well as those that start at a higher price per ml such as Caran d'ache and Montblanc Elixirs because they are "premium inks".

[gyasko]

2 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

Yet another subjective question in search of an objective answer.

 

An ink priced higher than a particular individual is prepared to pay does not make it overpriced.  There are many people happily spending disposable income on all the brands mentioned so far in this tread.  Proving that these inks are not overpriced.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why the rush to shut down consumer discussion of pricing?   Why treat the market, products or pricing with religious reverence unless you represent a firm hawking overpriced inks or have some ideological commitment to the infallibility of the market and commodities?

 

And to be perfectly pedantic, a given individual not wanting to pay the price for a ink doesn't exclude the possibility that the ink is priced above what the market will bear.  Moreover, neither does the presence of a product on the market today and/or some sales indicate that the people making it have a viable pricing scheme which will allow them to continue to bring the product to market.

 

Tiresome, right?  

 

So what's overpriced?

 

I tend to agree with the idea that MB LE & Sailor-made inks are overpriced.  The colors and properties don't excite me enough for the price to be worth it.  I also find the contrived production limits, tenuous connections to seasons or historical figures and hokey commemorative aspects offputting.  Give me a break, it's just ink.

 

Noodlers -- I don't want it at any price.  Maybe if Nathan would give me a few hundred a fill.  Maybe then.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Karmachanic]

25 minutes ago, gyasko said:

I tend to agree with the idea that MB LE & Sailor-made inks are overpriced. 

 

25 minutes ago, gyasko said:

Noodlers -- I don't want it at any price.

 

At the same time there are millions who buy MB LE and Sailor inks and love them.  Which shows they are  overpriced in your, and others opinion, but not in the opinion of the purchasers. To reiterate; it's subjective.

 

Noodlers has many fans, but you are not amongst them.  Subjective. One man's meat and so forth.

 

 

[Karmachanic]

53 minutes ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

And for the record; I think it unlikely that a Jinhao is as "functionally identical" to your 600L pen as an "Hermes" airtag is to a regular airtag, since they are the EXACT same product minus the engraving. If so, frankly, I would be having a word with the maker of the 600L pen. But that's me, and this is your money to do with as you please. 

Enjoy your pen.

 

Thank you. I'm sure I will.

Function and quality are not the same thing.  A £10 fountain pen functions the same way as a £600 pen does.  They are however, qualitatively different.

[inkstainedruth]

I seem to recall a thread a few years ago where someone priced out ink at the "per ml" price.  Some inks, when you looked at the overall costs, seemed more expensive.  But less so if you calculated what the capacity of the bottle was.

All the more reason to get samples first whenever possible.  If you don't like an ink, you're only out a few bucks.  If you do like it enough to get a full bottle, you've now got a refillable travel size container without having to buy a pack of sample vials and labels (and IME, the "return address label" size blank labels don't stick to the plastic vials all that well -- I have to generally put Scotch tape over them so they stay on) -- so you have to factor in the cost of a packet or box of the labels as well (and maybe also the tape).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Sailor Kenshin]

7 hours ago, lapis said:

Hieronymus (company in Switzerland; manufacturer unknown). Existent since around 2014. AFAIK, the most expensive (normally-sold) inks in the world.

 

Examples, please?  I never heard of this brand.

[Karmachanic]

3 minutes ago, Sailor Kenshin said:

 

Examples, please?  I never heard of this brand.

 

Look in Ink Reviews

[Arkanabar]

6 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

Yet another subjective question in search of an objective answer.

 

An ink priced higher than a particular individual is prepared to pay does not make it overpriced.  There are many people happily spending disposable income on all the brands mentioned so far in this tread.  Proving that these inks are not overpriced.

About what I was about to say -- that in matters of taste, there are no absolutes.  Now, I favor relatively inexpensive inks -- the Essentials include two Noodler's, two Diamines, a Pelikan, Pilot Blue-Black, and one Iroshizuku, which I only use to write billets-doux to the lady who gave it to me.  I suppose if I found an ink appealing enough, I'd probably pay up to $0.60/mL for it.  I don't get a whole lot of value out of a bottle.  I regard the color and performance of the ink as the primary determinants of value.

[Bill P]

ALL Sailor Inks ,Bung Box ( produced by Sailor), Montblanc, Colorverse, Ferris Wheel,  Iroshizuku,,,WAY OVERPRICED.

 

I simply refuse to purchase any of them....I find their prices to be outrageous.

 

There are so many reasonably priced inks, that are equally, or better, than the over priced inks.

 

To each his own.

 

 

[lapis]

40 minutes ago, Sailor Kenshin said:

 

Examples, please?  I never heard of this brand.

Or look at their own site here. Seeing as I haven't looked at that it for ages now, it's noteworthy that this is the second time in the last couple of years that they have reduced their prices. I mentioned their first price drop a good year or two ago here in the forum but I forget where. Maybe you should wait a few more years and then pay even less. It's also funny that they still have no retailer(s) here in Germany. I have the feeling that nobody wants to sell their inks here, but you never know....

PS: Nonetheless, what I bought was their two greys -- very good inks, I must say.

[RJS]

2 hours ago, Dione said:

Because ink bottles are made from glass the pricing structure has to reflect the distance it needs to travel as well as the contents in the bottle as shipping has become really expensive for items like this.

As I've mentioned on this site before, one of my close friends has spent a good chunk of his career importing glass bottles into Europe from Asia, because even with shipping it is much cheaper- if you buy a simple bottle design in bulk it's very cheap, and isn't going to be a significant driver of product cost. I can ask him tomorrow when I see him how much bottles currently cost imported into the UK, to save me hazarding a guess.

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

1 hour ago, Karmachanic said:

 

 

At the same time there are millions who buy MB LE and Sailor inks and love them.  Which shows they are  overpriced in your, and others opinion, but not in the opinion of the purchasers. To reiterate; it's subjective.

 

Noodlers has many fans, but you are not amongst them.  Subjective. One man's meat and so forth.

 

 

Here I will point out that that is exactly what the OP was asking when they said:

"Which inks are overpriced, in your opinion?" (emphasis mine)

So at no point did I consider this a "subjective question in search of an objective answer." as you stated.

Opinion was part of the conversation from the word go.

Most people recognize that opinion is hardly, if ever, objective.

If you didn't want to be part of this conversation; 

If you thought the conversation was dumb because it asked for people's opinions on something you consider to be mere economics;

I doubt anyone was forcing you to post on it.

 

1 hour ago, Karmachanic said:

 

Thank you. I'm sure I will.

Function and quality are not the same thing.  A £10 fountain pen functions the same way as a £600 pen does.  They are however, qualitatively different.

I suggest you investigate Apple AirTags a bit. You would find that when I say they are functionally the same, they are actually also physically identical (excepting the engraving) So, they are also qualitatively exactly the same. In short: they are the exact same product, made by the same robots in the same factory of the same materials; but one has "Hermes" laser etched on it, and costs 10X as much as the one that doesn't.

It's 100% branding.

And yet, they sell.

But they are, in a sense, overpriced: The exact same item can be had for 1/10 the cost. It's a 10X premium in order to show off that someone has a lot of money, and (IMO) questionable decision making skills WRT to how to spend that money. It is the very definition of conspicuous consumption. Just like anyone with a "Supreme" tshirt or hoody. 

 

You made the analogy that compared a 10L pen with a 600L pen. Not me.

I was making a statement WRT to consumer culture and the prestige/cachet that goes with spending a great deal of money on everyday items. 

I consider Ferris Wheel Press and MB LE inks to be exploiting the same general principle.

 

[Barkingpig]

54 minutes ago, lapis said:

Or look at their own site here. Seeing as I haven't looked at that it for ages now, it's noteworthy that this is the second time in the last couple of years that they have reduced their prices. I mentioned their first price drop a good year or two ago here in the forum but I forget where. Maybe you should wait a few more years and then pay even less. It's also funny that they still have no retailer(s) here in Germany. I have the feeling that nobody wants to sell their inks here, but you never know....

PS: Nonetheless, what I bought was their two greys -- very good inks, I must say.

And I bought their Brown 1 & Green 1 when I first saw them.  The cost was great but shipping more so that I paid total cost of three bottles of ink only to receive two.  I wanted to try them & have been very happy each time I have used either the green or brown.  I especially enjoy the brown because it is a very "cool brown" & is without the reddish cast that so many browns have.

 

And I consider cost when purchase of any ink or pen; if they hadn't been as pricy as they were I would have bought more than 2 bottles.  I have often bought three or four colors from an ink brand to try them & in this case merely settled for two.  I also appreciate their Holiday greeting card each year. Their cards retail on their site @ 21 Euro each so that is a nice appreciation for my small order of two bottles of ink several years ago.  

 

 

[RJS]

37 minutes ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

Here I will point out that that is exactly what the OP was asking when they said:

"Which inks are overpriced, in your opinion?" (emphasis mine)

So at no point did I consider this a "subjective question in search of an objective answer." as you stated.

Opinion was part of the conversation from the word go.

Most people recognize that opinion is hardly, if ever, objective.

If you didn't want to be part of this conversation; 

If you thought the conversation was dumb because it asked for people's opinions on something you consider to be mere economics;

I doubt anyone was forcing you to post on it.

 

I suggest you investigate Apple AirTags a bit. You would find that when I say they are functionally the same, they are actually also physically identical (excepting the engraving) So, they are also qualitatively exactly the same. In short: they are the exact same product, made by the same robots in the same factory of the same materials; but one has "Hermes" laser etched on it, and costs 10X as much as the one that doesn't.

It's 100% branding.

And yet, they sell.

But they are, in a sense, overpriced: The exact same item can be had for 1/10 the cost. It's a 10X premium in order to show off that someone has a lot of money, and (IMO) questionable decision making skills WRT to how to spend that money. It is the very definition of conspicuous consumption. Just like anyone with a "Supreme" tshirt or hoody. 

 

You made the analogy that compared a 10L pen with a 600L pen. Not me.

I was making a statement WRT to consumer culture and the prestige/cachet that goes with spending a great deal of money on everyday items. 

I consider Ferris Wheel Press and MB LE inks to be exploiting the same general principle.

 

A good post. I dislike the argument that items cannot be overpriced if someone is willing to buy them. Let's look at moisturisers, for example, a £5 tub and a £100 tub. The £5 tub costs the manufacturer 25p to fill, and the ingredients are decent and do a good job. The £100 tub is made in the same factory and contains the same ingredients, plus some weird extras that are little more than snake oil, that bring the cost to fill up to 90p. The £100 tub gets a fancy luxury brand name on it, and people are happy to buy it. The principal active ingredients are all the same. It's much like ink- Diamine vs Bungubox. I don't know how anyone (sane) could argue that Bungubox is 20x better to justify the 20x price disparity.

 

Edit: For what it's worth, I have bought inks I consider overpriced, and probably will again. If I can afford it and it brings me pleasure I see no harm in it, but I know they're an awful value proposition. I also continue to drink wine in restaurants, but I'm not deluding myself into thinking it isn't overpriced.

[oraxia]

I feel a little silly saying so, but I think the only ink I've ever truly considered overpriced is inkjet ink 😂 Otherwise, they're just inks I'm not personally inclined to purchase or inks I might get later (and probably as a sample) 😅 I really need to get myself into journaling or something similar so I can properly make my way through my current collection, LOL!

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

1 hour ago, RJS said:

 

Edit: For what it's worth, I have bought inks I consider overpriced, and probably will again. If I can afford it and it brings me pleasure I see no harm in it, but I know they're an awful value proposition. I also continue to drink wine in restaurants, but I'm not deluding myself into thinking it isn't overpriced.

as have I!

I have likely made dumber purchases than you have! I own 2 bottles of Parker "51" ink, and a bottle of superchrome. None of which can be safely used in any pen except a "51" aero-metric that has had a plastic breather tube installed. (so I put it in a twsbi eco and a wing sung 601 as I recall)

But at no point did I fool myself into thinking I was getting a good deal. I but I was dead set on satisfying my curiosity WRT the colours of those inks.

 

[NumberSix]

2 minutes ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

as have I!

I have likely made dumber purchases than you have! I own 2 bottles of Parker "51" ink, and a bottle of superchrome. None of which can be safely used in any pen except a "51" aero-metric that has had a plastic breather tube installed. (so I put it in a twsbi eco and a wing sung 601 as I recall)

But at no point did I fool myself into thinking I was getting a good deal. I but I was dead set on satisfying my curiosity WRT the colours of those inks.

 

“51” India Black is a very nice Ink, though. And so are the various Superchrome inks.

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

1 minute ago, NumberSix said:

“51” India Black is a very nice Ink, though. And so are the various Superchrome inks.

I thought the greens were ok. My Tunis was in rough shape, and I haven't gotten around to trying Superchrome BB yet.

I'm not really into Black inks, some kinda personal hang up with them. Probably the whole "thou shalt only sign in BLUE!" that was so drilled into me over the course of my life. 

 

 

 

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, RJS said:

I dislike the argument that items cannot be overpriced if someone is willing to buy them.

 

It depends on the basis on which ‘overpriced’ is assessed, from the perspective and in the opinion of the individual commenter.

 

From the viewpoint of an uninvolved observer, if the demand for a good equals or exceeds supply of it at a given price, then it is not overpriced, irrespective of the supply side's profit margins and the reason for the high demand (e.g. people need it for protection from harm in response to some event or development), morals or ethics.

 

For the business manager who wants to maximise profit for the manufacturer, distributor or retailer, then the proof of the pudding is in the tasting; a price that reduces overall profit when a lower price has proven to return better results for the business make that product overpriced.

 

For the consumer who goes strictly by personal assessment of value, being able to derive (a subjectively assessed) value to the tune of $100 from the ownership and/or use of a product that is priced at $90 is not overpriced, even if a $9 item could do almost just as well. The consumer may yet make rational (or even irrational, based on personal likes, brand loyalty, or just some sort of gut reaction to some aspect of the product, etc.) decisions as to which of many not-overpriced products to ultimately purchase, if only one is required; but an uncompetitive product with a high price is not implicitly overpriced, and the pricing only disadvantages the supply side and not the consumer who can be content with something else.

 

For the idealist who has no skin in the game himself, a profit margin of >x% on the expected marginal cost of production (or, more inclusively, supply including distribution, logistics and warehousing, etc.) based on a ‘teardown’ of ingredients or components may be considered overpricing, even when there is no rational or commonly agreed basis why a business' profit margin should be limited to no more than x% when it can identify and fulfil a need in the target market.

 

It isn't an optimisation problem of how the consumer can get best bang-for-buck. There is no implicit goal of providing near-equal access to products to consumers far and wide and in different personal circumstances, and it's not about sharing or spreading the benefit derivable from ‘good stuff’ that is currently in the market or can be produced with a broader base of consumers and/or hobbyists. It's not about fairness, justice, personal morals as the basis of judging whether some other party is greedy or profiteering.

 

But, I agree, in no case a singular “someone is willing to buy them” is not proof that something is not overpriced, unless the supply side only has one (unit/lot) to sell and only wants to sell one.

[RJS]

36 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

From the viewpoint of an uninvolved observer, if the demand for a good equals or exceeds supply of it at a given price, then it is not overpriced, irrespective of the supply side's profit margins and the reason for the high demand (e.g. people need it for protection from harm in response to some event or development), morals or ethics.

As you later acknowledge, while someone might try to say that nothing that sells is theoretically overpriced, that flies in the face of common dictionary definitions and general usage of the word. 

 

"If you say that something is overpriced, you mean that you think it costs much more than it should."

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/overpriced

 

Even multi-millionaires will make daily judgements on value of items. No one wants to feel they're being ripped off, even when the £29 pint of beer in Dubai (that they charged to the company) tasted really good...