Which Ink Lines Are Overpriced?

[samasry]

As a person who resides in the United States, I  can testify that during your 20s-40s  or even 50s you are in the process of building your life, and you need to finance your kids' college funds  in the tune  of 30K-100K per year per kid, finance your own retirement (millions required),  as most of us have no pension, finance our own  future health care costs, many 10s of thousands of property taxes per year, ...etc.

 

A person in the US middle class who has  to save for all these back breaking costs, that are certain to get worse in their future,  will judge an $80 dollar bottle of ink as overpriced, subjectively and from their vantage point seemingly objectively as well.  Same for 25c or 1$ per one sheet of paper, ...etc.

 

When we try to communicate some of these thoughts in a forum like this one, where true ink/paper  believers think that  any mention of cost or price or value is a mortal sin; usually we get into those endless debates, where I have noticed many times that the true believers think   there is a personal  attack on their judgement, how smart or wise they are.

 

 

I think both sides need to try to understand the other side's position and just agree to disagree. 

As  someone else put it  in a more succinct way,  "To each his own"

 

 

[PithyProlix]

Another potential consideration is buying ink because it has a low price per unit and is, thus, perceived to be a good value but some proportion of the ink never gets used, for whatever reason.

 

Consider this scenario:

You buy, say, Hero 233 Blue, which comes in a 60ml bottle, because you like the color, performance, etc. and the price is super low per unit - I've seen it, shipped, for about $0.035/ml ($2.12/60 ml bottle). You fill your pen with it - let's assume you make one fill of 1 ml and use it all - you enjoy using it, the color, etc. but then you soon buy a similarly-colored blue ink you like much better, except it is much more expensive, say a Sailor Ink Studio ink - $0.75/ml ($15.00/20 ml bottle), over 21x more expensive per unit than the Hero ink. So you've used only 1 ml of Hero 233, you put it in the back of your drawer, never to use it again, because you very much prefer the Sailor Ink Studio ink. You use up the entire bottle of the Sailor ink.

 

The ink you don't use (or gift to someone, etc.) is worth nothing. So, the bottle of Hero 233 Blue is now effectively $2.12/ml - almost 3x more 'expensive' than the Sailor ink. And we are not even considering the value of the enjoyment you get from the Sailor ink because it is difficult to quantify. 

So, in this scenario, which of the two inks is 'overpriced'? Hero? Sailor? Both? Neither?

Edited June 30, 2021 by PithyProlix
added the proportion per unit price of the Sailor ink versus the Hero ink to emphasize the difference.

[ParramattaPaul]

36 minutes ago, samasry said:

... When we try to communicate some of these thoughts in a forum like this one, where true ink/paper  believers think that  any mention of cost or price or value is a mortal sin; usually we get into those endless debates, where I have noticed many times that the true believers think   there is a personal  attack on their judgement or how smart or wise they are.

 

 

I think both sides need to try to understand the other side's position and just agree to disagree. 

As  someone else put it  in a more succinct way,  "To each his own"

 

 

I fully agree.  After all, the thoughts expressed are simply opinions, and as such are equal in value to each other.  They are not personal attacks.

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, samasry said:

When we try to communicate some of these thoughts in a forum like this one, where true ink/paper  believers think that  any mention of cost or price or value is a mortal sin; usually we get into those endless debates, where I have noticed many times that the true believers think   there is a personal  attack on their judgement or how smart or wise they are.

 

As far as I'm concerned, it isn't about (regarding it as) questioning or criticising one's judgment, nous, or… faithfulness, for lack of a better word, to talk about price and/or bang-for-buck. However, one's cost of living, overall quality of life, ability to afford on one's income (and/or after one's other financial commitments) the ‘better’ things in life or even expenses specifically in relation to fountain pen use (including paper and ink consumption) collectively are not part of ‘the hobby’ or the highly compartmentalised concerns of a fountain pen hobbyist/enthusiast. I'm sure they loom large on the individual's mind as a person, just as COVID and/or my family matters are important concerns to me, and may have an impact on (subjective affordability and) one's enjoyment of the hobby, but they are irrelevant to fellow forum members in the way they relate to each other as hobbyists (in a ‘pure‘ sense), not as friends, neighbours, comrades or ‘people’. If I sprain my finger and can't hold a pen for a while, it has nothing to do with anyone else's engagement in the hobby, irrespective of whether someone empathises or sympathises.

 

So, to me discussion of one's finances or health, etc. even if where it could impede the person's own enjoyment of the hobby, is irrelevant and boring to one's peers. My bout of debilitating tendonitis is nothing to you as a fellow fountain pen user and enthusiast, and I don't expect either sympathy or suggestions of solutions from afar (if I'm not consulting my GP and/or physiotherapist clinically for such advice first). I'd rather talk about what's ready for one to buy and use when one is prepared to spend the money — due a change in circumstances, be it getting a raise, winning the lottery, kids becoming self-sufficient adults, etc. or just a change in outlook on life, as the case may be — and physically well enough. If a product is about to be discontinued, and had to be secured now or never, that's more interesting generally to the community than whether the price of something (not discontinued or ‘limited edition’) is just what it is for all to see.

 

So, the flip side (of what you wrote) is, “Who (other than you) cares? Let's focus on the objective and technical, that everyone can see, try and/or validate for themselves — since we're discussing with fellow hobbyists globally — and let them work out individually the applicability and/or affordability for themselves,” should not be a mortal sin either; it's only an expression reasonable disinterest. There's nothing wrong with trying to steer the discussion back towards that instead of individual concerns.

 

Lack of caring for someone else's circumstances or predicament as a person, and expression thereof, may not be kind or compassionate, but it isn't a personal attack or disrespectful of a fellow hobbyist with common interest in the same geeky pursuit.

[samasry]

30 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

As far as I'm concerned, it isn't about (regarding it as) questioning or criticising one's judgment, nous, or… faithfulness, for lack of a better word, to talk about price and/or bang-for-buck. However, one's cost of living, overall quality of life, ability to afford on one's income (and/or after one's other financial commitments) the ‘better’ things in life or even expenses specifically in relation to fountain pen use (including paper and ink consumption) collectively are not part of ‘the hobby’ or the highly compartmentalised concerns of a fountain pen hobbyist/enthusiast. I'm sure they loom large on the individual's mind as a person, just as COVID and/or my family matters are important concerns to me, and may have an impact on (subjective affordability and) one's enjoyment of the hobby, but they are irrelevant to fellow forum members in the way they relate to each other as hobbyists (in a ‘pure‘ sense), not as friends, neighbours, comrades or ‘people’. If I sprain my finger and can't hold a pen for a while, it has nothing to do with anyone else's engagement in the hobby, irrespective of whether someone empathises or sympathises.

 

So, to me discussion of one's finances or health, etc. even if where it could impede the person's own enjoyment of the hobby, is irrelevant and boring to one's peers. My bout of debilitating tendonitis is nothing to you as a fellow fountain pen user and enthusiast, and I don't expect either sympathy or suggestions of solutions from afar (if I'm not consulting my GP and/or physiotherapist clinically for such advice first). I'd rather talk about what's ready for one to buy and use when one is prepared to spend the money — due a change in circumstances, be it getting a raise, winning the lottery, kids becoming self-sufficient adults, etc. or just a change in outlook on life, as the case may be — and physically well enough. If a product is about to be discontinued, and had to be secured now or never, that's more interesting generally to the community than whether the price of something (not discontinued or ‘limited edition’) is just what it is for all to see.

 

So, the flip side (of what you wrote) is, “Who (other than you) cares? Let's focus on the objective and technical, that everyone can see, try and/or validate for themselves — since we're discussing with fellow hobbyists globally — and let them work out individually the applicability and/or affordability for themselves,” should not be a mortal sin either; it's only an expression reasonable disinterest. There's nothing wrong with trying to steer the discussion back towards that instead of individual concerns.

 

Lack of caring for someone else's circumstances or predicament as a person, and expression thereof, may not be kind or compassionate, but it isn't a personal attack or disrespectful of a fellow hobbyist with common interest in the same geeky pursuit.

 

TL, DNR

 

If you are writing this for me, u  need to move on with your life.  I never read anything you write;  it is pure waste of time.

 

If you are writing for your fans,  then  knock yourself out. 

 

 

[vtgt]

I can safely say Sailor inks, since I have a few samples but none of their ink bottles. If the bottles had been cheaper, I might have chanced the whole bottle instead. Their loss. 20ml is almost only a sample size. I prefer the way Herbin does its sample type sizes, 4 euro for 10ml.

[IlikeInksandIcannotlie]

Seems like I've opened a can of worms here.

[Dione]

10 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

 

Look in Ink Reviews

I looked and see a few Hieronymus inks are mentioned but none have any images so search elsewhere if you want to see the colors. Their web-site shows images of each one.

[Dione]

9 hours ago, RJS said:

As I've mentioned on this site before, one of my close friends has spent a good chunk of his career importing glass bottles into Europe from Asia, because even with shipping it is much cheaper- if you buy a simple bottle design in bulk it's very cheap, and isn't going to be a significant driver of product cost. I can ask him tomorrow when I see him how much bottles currently cost imported into the UK, to save me hazarding a guess.

It isn't just the shipping or bottles like it isn't just the ink. Nor do I need to buy bottles in bulk. If you can find an ink seller in Asia who has registered to pay UK VAT in accordance with the new rules then sells and ships these brands cheaply I would love to know.

[vtgt]

17 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

The ink brands that disappear fron the marketplace.

This literal-minded response only approaches from one side of the transaction, that of the seller. It ignores the attitude and nuances in buyer activity. One has to wonder why we browse this buyer forum if we're going to ignore buyers.

 

A manufacturer can price an ink at many times the cost of it yet make enough money to sustain the line, but this can still be unsatisfactory to buyers who buy said ink far less often and other manufacturers can start imitating it.

 

As a buyer I'd prefer to see less committal, lower bottle costs at the expense of some economy of scale. Noodler's for instance are set on economy of scale and their bottles are just far bigger than I need, maybe 1000 pages of ink in them. I'd prefer bottles 1/3 the size for 1/2 the price. Worse economy per ml but I might have bought twice as many. That's the buyer side talking. Whether the one-man band of Noodler's could take the strain of filling twice as many bottles to the brim is another matter.

[RJS]

15 minutes ago, Dione said:

It isn't just the shipping or bottles like it isn't just the ink. Nor do I need to buy bottles in bulk. If you can find an ink seller in Asia who has registered to pay UK VAT in accordance with the new rules then sells and ships these brands cheaply I would love to know.

There's not going to be that much interest in foreigners signing up for a UK VAT scheme that is there just to make things simpler for Brits that import items valued between £15 and £150, unfortunately.

 

I made the comment on the bottles because I saw your message about how the price of the glass was impacting things, and thought you might be curious about how much manufacturers are likely paying for their bottles.  I'd also wager the fill cost of ink is also very low, unless Diamine use infinitely cheaper ingredients than everyone else (which I doubt!).

[InesF]

1 hour ago, IlikeInksandIcannotlie said:

Seems like I've opened a can of worms here.

😁

 

Now, that the can is open and the question escaped: the answers tell a lot so far.

 

For me, there is no pre-set limit of a price per bottle or price per mL. I bought one of those Colorverse inks and I'm excited about its behaviour with a fine nib - great, simply great! I bought the other day a Graf von Faber-Castell ink for almost the same price and I was so disappointed about it that I emptied the bottle into the sink after only a few tests - a total waste of money. And I can give similar reports about inks in the 4€ per bottle range.

 

An ink (or any other thing) that fails to do what it is intended or expected to do is always overpriced, spending 1€ is already too much.

 

So far my 2 ¢

[RJS]

11 minutes ago, vtgt said:

This literal-minded response only approaches from one side of the transaction, that of the seller. It ignores the attitude and nuances in buyer activity. One has to wonder why we browse this buyer forum if we're going to ignore buyers.

 

A manufacturer can price an ink at many times the cost of it yet make enough money to sustain the line, but this can still be unsatisfactory to buyers who buy said ink far less often and other manufacturers can start imitating it.

 

As a buyer I'd prefer to see less committal, lower bottle costs at the expense of some economy of scale. Noodler's for instance are set on economy of scale and their bottles are just far bigger than I need, maybe 1000 pages of ink in them. I'd prefer bottles 1/3 the size for 1/2 the price. Worse economy per ml but I might have bought twice as many. That's the buyer side talking. Whether the one-man band of Noodler's could take the strain of filling twice as many bottles to the brim is another matter.

Spot on. 👍

[IlikeInksandIcannotlie]

37 minutes ago, InesF said:

I bought the other day a Graf von Faber-Castell ink for almost the same price and I was so disappointed about it that I emptied the bottle into the sink after only a few tests

Huh, may I ask which ink that was?

 

[IlikeInksandIcannotlie]

17 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

Platinum Mixable Ink in 60ml bottles aren't overpriced at ¥1200+tax in Japan, but they may well be overpriced elsewhere.

Yeah, their price is almost double here, and the Platinum Classic Inks also cost almost 75 percent over the base price, which I find somewhat ridiculous. Others may not, and I recognize that.

[IlikeInksandIcannotlie]

9 hours ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

Here I will point out that that is exactly what the OP was asking when they said:

"Which inks are overpriced, in your opinion?" (emphasis mine)

So at no point did I consider this a "subjective question in search of an objective answer." as you stated.

Opinion was part of the conversation from the word go.

Most people recognize that opinion is hardly, if ever, objective.

Thank you for pointing that out. I did not think that the subject would be so controversial in the first place, else I might not have started the thread.

[InesF]

18 minutes ago, IlikeInksandIcannotlie said:

Huh, may I ask which ink that was?

 

It was Turquoise.

Tried in 5 different pens, the lines drawn were more pale than the lines of a grid paper - almost invisible.

[Aether]

It should be possible to arrive at an average cost for regular production ink.  Then, ceteris paribus,  if a price is above the average it is overpriced, if under then a bargain price.   Completely ignoring inks that have extra special properties built in.  Some of the LE/SE inks are just regular inks (by the look of it) that are made in low quantity to jack up price.  Much like many LE/SE pens.  Again, ignoring deliberate market manipulation, there could be a price index for ink.

[IlikeInksandIcannotlie]

4 minutes ago, Aether said:

It should be possible to arrive at an average cost for regular production ink.  Then, ceteris paribus,  if a price is above the average it is overpriced, if under then a bargain price.   Completely ignoring inks that have extra special properties built in.  Some of the LE/SE inks are just regular inks (by the look of it) that are made in low quantity to jack up price.  Much like many LE/SE pens.  Again, ignoring deliberate market manipulation, there could be a price index for ink.

You will have to exclude some Indian and Chinese inks, otherwise I'm not sure if Diamine or Noodler's ( in the US) will be in the bargain range...

[IlikeInksandIcannotlie]

19 minutes ago, InesF said:

It was Turquoise.

Tried in 5 different pens, the lines drawn were more pale than the lines of a grid paper - almost invisible.

Not one of their better inks, that.