Please help me fix this lifelong handwriting problem

[Saaad]

On 1/5/2021 at 1:13 AM, Gomer said:

If I'm feeling calm and I take my time, my handwriting looks fair.  But, if I'm nervous or in a hurry, it starts looking ugly.  I have really worked on it and done pages and pages of loops and other figures.  But, my hand doesn't always do what I want.  So, it is what it is.  Don't feel like you are the only one.

 

You might try just doodling for practice.  Maybe you can improve your control of the pen so that your letters are more consistent.  I've read that using your arm more than your fingers helps.  I wish you luck with it.

Yeah, nervousness does play a role in the handwriting but I am sure all of us in the examination hall are somewhat nervous so that doesn't count.
 

I have plans to transition into whole arm movement in the future but not right now because last time I tried that, I felt like I drew gibberish. I read it takes months to practice that. I will surely learn that in the upcoming time after exams as it is said to give an exponential boost in speed. 

 

Also thanks for wishing me luck  Wishing you luck too! 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Saaad

[Saaad]

On 1/5/2021 at 1:36 AM, Pointyscratchy said:

 

This is seemingly quite an urgent issue for young Saad (I'm guessing he's about fifteen).He feels it very keenly.He's in a hyper competitive environment where education is an escape.He's in a large class full of madly competitive over achievers with parents that are caricatures of pushy on one side, zealous teachers on the other and exam markers who can only really judge on presentation because they are probably not familiar with the course work.He's come to us asking for help with his handwriting.Can we?

 

I don't think he needs inspiring.He has a very good grasp of his situation and he's probably in a bigger hole than we've ever been in.The fact that the rest of the world officially gave up on cursive circa 2012/2013  holds no sway in his bit of the galaxy(witness the plethora of New York times/Guardian articles  from that time laying it to rest.Keyboard skills were deemed more important than cursive and that was official.It was buried along with print newspapers and bricks and mortar stores)

 

There are books. I have some.Some are even e books  you can download, but I would doubt he has the cash for these.He seems very well motivated.I hope he finds a way through, but sometimes you have to lose a battle now to win a bigger one later.

The competitive environment is fun. The only thing holding me back is my handwriting, once I fix that, I will definitely be unstoppable. 

 

Thanks for the well wishes  

[Saaad]

On 1/5/2021 at 4:24 AM, brokenclay said:

A good downloadable resource with emphasis on italic printing for every day handwriting use rather than calligraphy: https://sites.google.com/view/briem

Thanksss!

[Saaad]

On 1/5/2021 at 4:06 PM, txomsy said:

Saaad, could you also post some samples of the handwriting that your teachers like? That would help us figure out which advice to give and avoid advising something that will downgrade your marks.

 

I will try to get my hands on that after my college re-opens. I am still a little hesitant due to the fact I may be joked about but I will still ask others.

 

For now, this is my best friends handwriting, whom, keep in my teacher consider a mischievous guy so they don't pay extra attention on him. They consider this handwriting normal (not good or best):
(Consider a little neater version of this handwriting normal because in this pic, he was taking a test and writing very fast)

 

On 1/5/2021 at 4:06 PM, txomsy said:

Sorry for the long post. Read only if you are bored to death and have nothing better to do. There are only the ramblings of a silly, verbose old person.

 

Don't be sorry, your explanations and insights are good. I don't get bored reading them. And also, older people offer the best advice 😉

 

On 1/5/2021 at 4:06 PM, txomsy said:

I gut-feel PointySratchy is mostly right but, wouldn't it be possible that the teachers really knew about the subject and were concerned about their students' future? Specially when you live in an less favorable area, you tend to feel that in order to succeed in better favored regions (or just to be able to competitively offer your works) you need to excel.

 

You are right about the success part in an unfavorable area but as I explained in my previous reply, even if the teacher's wanted me to succeed, they didn't execute their ways correctly (pardon me for saying this). I barely remember any teacher telling me I can do it or encouraging me. It was 95% study talks and other 5% was talks about importance of success and how X and Y students before us got Z marks and we need to compete etc. Infact, I scored overall 2nd in the school. But this year's result (highest 982/1100) was much less than last year's (highest 1034/1100). Mine was 975 marks. I scored 88.6%. They expected us to score at least 95%. There is a custom of writing highest achievers marks beside school's gate as to encourage them to do more. All the schools do it, and by all, I mean all. But this time, in retaliation, our school, and our school only didn't do so. For context, we had many 900+ marks achievers but they didn't write it outside. For context, all other schools put as low as 700+ marks achievers beside school's gate. This also broke my heart tbh. But that's all in the past now. I don't care anymore.

 

On 1/5/2021 at 4:06 PM, txomsy said:

''If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea.” 

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Nice quote, gonna print it and put it on my room's wall 😉

 

On 1/5/2021 at 4:06 PM, txomsy said:

Despising your professors or education has rarely been a good motivation. Understanding that life is full of challenges and taking pride in facing them (and learning to fail --and from failure), no matter what the challenge was, has, however, always helped me. YMMV.

I don't despise anyone. I do now have this exact mentality you are stating.

 

On 1/5/2021 at 4:06 PM, txomsy said:

Then there is another dimension. Some cultures have traditionally avoided images and compensated towards the writing word. In those, writing is an art to be mastered and the quality of a person has traditionally been measured to a relevant level by their writing. You should see the walls of Alhambra or Topkapi to appreciate the extent.

 

Umm but what would scientific implementation have to do with beautifully written procedure description?

On 1/5/2021 at 4:06 PM, txomsy said:

Before anyone else complains, think of how much proper live presentations -for instance- are now valued in many cultures. I wouldn't be too harsh on the teachers without knowing more.

 

But, doesn't that depend on content of the presentation and how well you answer attendees questions?

 

On 1/5/2021 at 4:06 PM, txomsy said:

I think it is better to see what the teachers demand, either by looking at their own writing or at the writing of other students that are praised by them, and then try to emulate that. Again, different cultures favor different scripts. If you are going to be judged by it, it is better to play the rules than to argue with judges your right to take judgement in your own hands your own way. Lynch's law is also widely frowned upon in most cultures.

 

I will try my best to get hands on the handwriting teacher's prefer so you friends can look into it and compare.

 

On 1/5/2021 at 4:06 PM, txomsy said:

Winning a race is about being fast. But also about running in the right direction. And comparing your position  to that of others. And thinking. And trailing the leader. And then strategy. And sprinting. And losing.

 

Yeah, I recently read 'It's a marathon not a race' and it's quite insightful. I should compose a list of mind-opening and reality-based quotes and stick them around my room so whenever I wake up, I can be in the right state of mind - achieving based mind.

 

On 1/5/2021 at 4:06 PM, txomsy said:

I had a sports teacher who always repeated "the trick is to never overdo it, just don't". When you want to cultivate a new discipline (be it muscle memory or any other), overdoing it means pain, hating it, then not progressing and, abandonment.

Yeah discipline over motivation.

 

On 1/5/2021 at 4:06 PM, txomsy said:

Look for friends. Like this forum. Having friends who also hold the values you want and provide encouragement and advice is a great asset. We are social animals. Look for good friends who hold good values. But don't dismiss those who don't. There is a place for everything in life.

 

I have been overwhelmed by happiness due to the support from this forum. I tried asking on reddit handwriting sub two times but never got replies but here people showered me with beautiful resources and info. I am very thankful. 

 

On 1/5/2021 at 4:06 PM, txomsy said:

Do not criticize your professors. Complaining about and blaming others is called "whining" and often frowned upon. Fight to be better. Your professors, most likely (or so you must think) are loving and caring for you (they care for you and your education or they wouldn't point your weaknesses). They will likely tend to be softer than needed. You should be your worst critic. Avoid those who do not criticize, adulators only seek your failure.

 

Good points, I will keep these in my mind also. As I said, you replies have useful info so never consider them boring 👍

 

On 1/5/2021 at 4:06 PM, txomsy said:

Choose your "heroes" to emulate. Once you know your goal, look at those who excelled in it and try to emulate their work. But choose wisely your leaders. Try to avoid those who advocate the easy way and blame trouble on others, those are usually scammers. You do not need to be equal to the masters, you  are human and have imagination, you can find your own way and surpass them --provided you are also capable of self-criticism to actually improve. That is what your teachers are demanding from you.

Another interesting perspective 👍

 

On 1/5/2021 at 4:06 PM, txomsy said:

We can help. With samples, we can point you to master calligraphers that match your needs so you can emulate their work. Consider that beautiful handwriting usually responds (beside the script) to uniformity and shape. Look at your work and see what defects you can see. That will also help you avoid them. Try to make letters uniform, in size, width, slant (or the lack of), separation (or joining), mind the space between words... We can help you if you provide some samples of what your teachers consider good handwriting by providing a trained eye and quicker advice. You will need that ability (humility+self-criticism) all of your life.

 

I will get you the samples soon. And once again, thanks for writing such detailed replies, I hope my replies also do justice to the time you spent writing this for me  

On 1/5/2021 at 4:06 PM, txomsy said:

Anyway, if your teachers demand from you that, any other consideration is moot: you just have to overcome the challenge to pass. Cherish the challenge.

Look at the goal, everything else is just noise 👍

[Saaad]

On 1/6/2021 at 6:42 PM, Stompie said:

Your style of writing might be greatly improved by the mere use of an Italic/Stub pen instead of what looks like a straight forward standard fountain pen or ballpoint pen. Are you allowed to use fountain pens at school?

 

I have seen it over the years, people with a fairly plain and boring handwriting style get a huge boost when they use a stub/italic pen instead. 

If you can not afford one then keep watch on the PIF thread in case someone offers one up for you. 

No, that video I made, I just quickly grabbed the gel pen. I actually mainly use a fountain pen  

[Saaad]

Also, I am sorry for the late replies. I got wet in cold rain and got a little bit ill. I hope my replies do justice to the time you guys spent writing these replies  

 

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by Saaad

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, Saaad said:

They consider this handwriting normal (not good or best):
(Consider a little neater version of this handwriting normal because in this pic, he was taking a test and writing very fast)

 

His handwriting looks more … confident, as if written by the hand of someone who is self-possessed, compared to (what you showed us of) your handwriting.

 

I suggest you work on achieving a better height balance between the ascenders and descenders. The part of the stem above the crossbar in your minuscule ‘f‘ and ‘t‘ is too tall, especially given how horizontally compressed (i.e. narrow) those minuscules look. The descenders, e.g. the ‘tails’ in your minuscule ‘g‘ and ‘y’, are sometimes even shorter than your minuscule's average x-height. Also try to maintain a more even x-height for different letters; the tops of your minuscules are bopping up and down all alone a single line of writing, when (for example) ‘a‘, ‘e‘, ‘o‘, ‘s‘ and ‘w‘ should be equally as tall. It also bears reiterating that you could improve the appearance of your handwriting by fixing the bowls on your minuscule ‘h‘ and ‘n’ so that they reach the full x-height, instead of looking flattened and stretched out sideways.

[Saaad]

4 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

His handwriting looks more … confident, as if written by the hand of someone who is self-possessed, compared to (what you showed us of) your handwriting.

 

Yeah, he's very confident. 

 

5 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

I suggest you work on achieving a better height balance between the ascenders and descenders. The part of the stem above the crossbar in your minuscule ‘f‘ and ‘t‘ is too tall, especially given how horizontally compressed (i.e. narrow) those minuscules look. The descenders, e.g. the ‘tails’ in your minuscule ‘g‘ and ‘y’, are sometimes even shorter than your minuscule's average x-height. Also try to maintain a more even x-height for different letters; the tops of your minuscules are bopping up and down all alone a single line of writing, when (for example) ‘a‘, ‘e‘, ‘o‘, ‘s‘ and ‘w‘ should be equally as tall. It also bears reiterating that you could improve the appearance of your handwriting by fixing the bowls on your minuscule ‘h‘ and ‘n’ so that they reach the full x-height, instead of looking flattened and stretched out sideways.

I will take all of this into consideration. So summarizing what you said:

I should determine a perfect x-height, then all of my lowercase letters must be equal to that comparably. Each grass letter (letters than sit in the middle line with neither ascenders or descenders) must be equal to that x-height. Then, each sky letter (letters with ascenders) and each root letter (letters with descenders) must have same length as x-height for their ascenders and descenders.

Did I understand it correctly?  

[A Smug Dill]

21 hours ago, Saaad said:

I should determine a perfect x-height,

 

That is often constrained by the ruled lines on the page.

 

General guidance — and perhaps expectation — for regular handwriting is that the ascenders and descenders should be equal in height to each other, and in turn roughly equal to the x-height; in other words, the written line (for a series of minuscules) would be divided into thirds vertically.

 

You'll also have to account for vertical spacing between two consecutive lines of writing, so that the descenders from the line above do not collide or intersect with the ascenders from the line below, if you are not only writing on every second ruled line on the page. So, 7mm ruled paper would leave you more or less aiming for an x-height of 2mm with matching ascender and descender heights, with 1mm clear space between consecutive lines; and you may have to choose pens that put down narrow enough lines to accommodate that.

 

 

If you find writing that ‘small’ to be difficult and unnatural, then given the limited amount of time available to you to practise before sitting your exams, I'd suggest you explore whether writing on every second ruled line in the answer book is an option, so that you could use an x-height of up to 4mm.

 

Edit: That doesn't appear to be a problem in your handwriting sample, though.

 

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by A Smug Dill

[BaronWulfraed]

5 hours ago, Saaad said:

 

For now, this is my best friends handwriting, whom, keep in my teacher consider a mischievous guy so they don't pay extra attention on him. They consider this handwriting normal (not good or best):
(Consider a little neater version of this handwriting normal because in this pic, he was taking a test and writing very fast)

 

 

 

That example makes me think "normal" is a rather loose term. I see mostly print letter forms, except cursive lowercase l (ell), f, and some h, capital I (eye). A strange looking "r" in "presence", and both print and cursive "t" in "static" Most letters are discrete (not-joined), yet the "ut" and "ch" pairs in "Dutch" are joined. "their" appears to have a print t with cursive&joined heir. Strange "d" in "named" and "placed" (which looks like "placool" to me) {I'm ignoring the four spelling errors -- I think the second paragraph is supposed to have "waves", not "ways"}.

 

In truth, I found the sample you  provided in your first post somewhat easier to read, though your "h" seems a touch wider than it needs to be, along with the space between your words (though the above sample also suffers from that -- I'd consider a wide space to be equivalent to the width of the letter "m"). I did notice your "under" has a narrow "u" but a wide "n". In my experience, even in print, those two letters should be the same width ("un" would look the same if you turned the paper upside down). Oh, and you appear to be using a cursive "r" while everything else is print.

 

But what do I know... My adult print form is to use small caps rather than lowercase

"SMALL CAPS"

And my cursive tends to use print capitals.

 

[arcfide]

Both your example and the example of your friend's show typical "poor form" mistakes related to proper letter form creation and a number of other things. Additionally, there isn't a generally agreed upon standard for x-height size relative to ascender and descender size, and modern alphabets tends to encourage shorter ascenders and descenders, rather than longer ones. 

 

All of that suggests to me that those technical elements are not the root cause of the issue here. Instead, what your friend's handwriting demonstrates is flow, versus yours, which shows disrupted flow. I think this means to me that you should focus on a unifying movement pattern, and then work to build a more rhythmic writing to your hand. Doing that is likely to improve your style significantly. In other words, remember that you are not trying to draw the letters, but write words rhythmically with a unified motion. Briem has excellent training for this in his handwriting improvement course, and I recommend that you study this, as Briem is probably the fastest and easiest to learn movement-based handwriting method that you can easily get a hold of right now (since it is available online).

 

I also include the following sample of example handwritings so that you can see the differences between angular, round, squat, fat, spacious, tall, skinny, and other styles of writing. I suspect that all of these forms would be considered acceptable for your teachers, simply because they are all written with a reasonable degree of confidence. However, you should find the one that allows you to write with the most confidence and develop your rhythmic flow with your hand to ensure that you can manifest that maturity in your own writing. Copying someone's writing won't give it the same oomph as you taking a motion and making it yours. 

 

I would try a number of different variations on your own writing and show it to your teachers, asking them which one they think is better. Then keep doing this through multiple refinements, trying to figure out what is the best style for you to work with. 

 

Here's the sample:

 

[Pointyscratchy]

Arcfide. Excellent.Agree with everything you say and intend using  your suggestions in my own study.

 

I did think we were overwhelming young Saaad with so many replies.He has responded brilliantly.

 

Somerset Maugham wrote a short story called The Verger.His protagonist (the verger) got the sack when his upmarket church got a snooty new vicar and because he couldn't read or write thought this didn't fit in with the very posh St Peters.

 

Unable to do anything else he opened a tobacconists shop selling pipes and what not in his front room.This led to a chain of shops.

 

He eventually sold the shops for what was considered an enormous amount of money, but met with a problem signing when he had to admit he could neither read nor write.What!! Thundered the recipient of this news, you've achieved all this! What on earth would you have done if you could read and write?

 

Oh, that's easy he replied, I'd be the verger of St Peters.

 

And that is a very round about way of saying Saad;86%, second in the public exam for your school; what on earth would you have got if they could have read your writing?

[arcfide]

Another thing to remember is that the handwriting diagnosis is only based on what his teachers are saying as far as I can tell. The teachers are of a mind, as I understand it, that his handwriting will not be workable in the exams, but I don't know if it has been proven that his handwriting is fundamentally an impediment. It is possible that it is not. It is possible that the examiners/graders actually prefer his handwriting over that of his friends, even if the teachers prefer his friends over his. I don't know if that has been confirmed or not, but that's something to watch out for as well. You want to be careful not to make something worse because you think it isn't optimal right now, unless you have a good way of moving through that value of "less good" to something you know will be better. That requires good feedback and knowledge of what the actual cause of issues might be.

 

It is very possible that the handwriting is only appearing to be a local issue, but that it really isn't a big issue, and it only seems like that because of the comments of his teachers, who may not represent the important parties. 

[Pointyscratchy]

Half his class will probably end up as doctors for Pete's sake and yet still feel like failures on some level.They are incredibly driven, it's a very different culture to ours.Do or die.

 

His teachers are even pretty damn angry that this years exams dipped under last years.That is viscerally mad.They want 90% plus, and if master penmanship pushes it to 93%, then that missing 3% becomes a major issue.He says it's the statewide custom to put the top pupils names(which would include his) up on a board near the school gates but because of the perceived disgrace of the slight exam dip this has not been enacted.

[txomsy]

Yeah, I am trying to take better care of my health so I can become a selfless hardworking who only works and doesn't worry. I am trying to make 'even if I fail, I will try again' a part of me practically rather than just you know say it.

 

Do not take it to that extreme. The point is no to let go of one self and sacrifice one's life to success.

 

It is all too easy when one's a teen to take things to the extreme.

 

The actual point is that failure -as we usually conceive it- does not exist. Things just happen. When you void them from their connotations, when you look at them objectively, they are just events. Nothing to be ashamed from.

 

What really makes a difference is how you face your life. Once you accept there is nothing good or wrong with failing or succeeding, you can decide what you do with whatever happens to you in your life. That is what makes the difference.

 

Now, I may be terribly wrong, but what I do tell all the students that work with me is that whatever happens they should always look at the advantage in it. There is always a way to look at things where they are advantageous -some way or other- to you. If you can set your feelings aside for just one moment, you may be able to find that way.

 

That is why I said there is no failure: it is just an experience you can learn from. You can learn what does not work and what does. You can learn what others expect from you. You can learn how it makes you feel. And you can learn how to overcome it and make ity work for you and your future.

 

In my experience, attitude towards life is what makes the difference. It is not self-denial. It is learning from your mistakes so you can find a way to later enjoy life, to have joy, be merry and happy, surround yourself by good friends, laugh, and why not? cry, suffer and have a full life.

 

As for your writing: if you can post some examples we'll be able to help better.

 

As for "manliness". In some cultures, it has become a "truism" (not that it is true) that round letter shapes (in the sense of circular. like this) are "feminine", that oval shaped (in the sense of slanted, like this) in the direction of writing are "manly" and express determination, and that oval shaped in the reverse direction "backwards" reflect lack of determination.

 

There is a whole corpus of (I hope nobody takes it personal, for it isn't, but that is the fact) pseudo-scientific graphological appreciations that purport to predict one's character from one's letter shapes. None of it has any scientific backing. Just witness calligraphers: they do not need to be forcefully nice people. So, I would rather look at what made you fail earlier, what got others to pass, and concentrate in mastering whatever writing style works to make you pass.

 

And when you do, for goodness sake, do celebrate! Life is not about self-denial. but about seeking joy. And, one day you'll discover, the pain you go through to get that joy is what makes that joy worth.

 

There cannot be joy without effort, only boredom.

[ParramattaPaul]

There has been a lot of very worthy advice offered here.  It has taken two forms.  The first, as requested, advice about improving one's handwriting.  The second, advice about life offered in the  spirit of friendship by those of us who have lived more decades and experienced more than young Saaad.  Many of us are parents and grandparents who have offered the advice we have and would give our own children and grandchildren.   Others have walked the same path as Saaad and offer the value gained from experience.  Others offer caring wisdom in a spirit of generosity. 

 

This is truly admirable, and deserves to by recognised.  It speaks to the good nature of all who have offered helpful advice. 

 

Saaad, you are among friends here in our little, albeit global, discussion group.

[A Smug Dill]

Looking at your handwriting sample more closely:

 

 

 

23 hours ago, Saaad said:

Yeah, I realized my younger dumb self trained my muscle memory with the bad handwriting even when practicing because I was mindlessly doing it thinking that just writing will make it better lol.

 

I used to work in Six Sigma process/quality improvement for large corporations (with thousands upon thousands of operational processes that sorta worked as-is), and the key learning is that blindly applying ‘improvement’ tactics is apt to send something to ‘hell’, more efficiently and more consistently than before, if we fail to take the time to identify and analyse current shortcomings, and specify the desired outcomes precisely and meaningfully before putting in revised practices.

[Pointyscratchy]

3 hours ago, ParramattaPaul said:

There has been a lot of very worthy advice offered here.  It has taken two forms.  The first, as requested, advice about improving one's handwriting.  The second, advice about life offered in the  spirit of friendship by those of us who have lived more decades and experienced more than young Saaad.  Many of us are parents and grandparents who have offered the advice we have and would give our own children and grandchildren.   Others have walked the same path as Saaad and offer the value gained from experience.  Others offer caring wisdom in a spirit of generosity. 

 

This is truly admirable, and deserves to by recognised.  It speaks to the good nature of all who have offered helpful advice. 

 

Saaad, you are among friends here in our little, albeit global, discussion group.

I'm nowhere near that ultruistic. I've used this thread as the basis for quite a profound magazine article,(I posit that the long lockdown walks everyone is taking were actually my idea,- and go on quite pompously to assign the next big thing cultural shift idea after the walks.)

 

That's another life lesson for Saaad. Like copying homework, if you see a better idea use it shamelessly.

[ParramattaPaul]

1 minute ago, Pointyscratchy said:

That's another life lesson for Saaad. Like copying homework, if you see a better idea use it shamelessly.

Aye.  That follows under the heading of 'Work Smart, Not Hard'.

[inkstainedruth]

9 hours ago, txomsy said:

That is why I said there is no failure: it is just an experience you can learn from. You can learn what does not work and what does. You can learn what others expect from you. You can learn how it makes you feel. And you can learn how to overcome it and make ity work for you and your future.

There's a guy I know in my other hobby, who is a jeweler and metalsmith.  He told me once that he entered an arts competition with pieces that he had deemed "failures".  And someone said to him, "Why on earth did you do that?!"  And he told me his answer was, "Because EVERY ONE of those "failed" pieces I LEARNED something from...."

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth