Please help me fix this lifelong handwriting problem

[Inky.Fingers]

[Pointyscratchy]

I do feel we're beating this one to death, but there is something else I'd like to say to Saaad. These sorts of things are where our ideas come from.By that I mean this annoys you, it bothers you.It's quite easy for you to turn that into something else if you know how.If you have the toolbox.It can give you something other people don't have.Here's my example:

 

Story idea.The teacher who valued good handwriting (Ttwvgh).

 

Ttwygh was having a blazing row with the principle.An ex pupil was coming back to make the yearly inspirational speech and give out the prizes. Ttwygh’s problem with this was that this pupil had never scored above 80% while 90% was quite commonplace, and the two had argued constantly over the legibility of his handwriting.The pupil stating his intention to join the army where he did do not need good handwriting.To add to his insolence one infamous day their had appeared on the blackboard;

“To achieve the towering ambition of provincial school teacher good handwriting is foremost. For almost anything else it is not.” Albert Einstein.

 

He had scrubbed the chalked quote away furiously.No one admitted to it even when he had kept the whole class in.To make matters worse the quote had been invented and Einstein had never said any such thing. Ttwvgh knew in his own mind who had written this -for one thing the handwriting was awful- and the memory still stung.

 

The Principle however was insistent.This particular pupil had joined the army, then transferred to the air force as a pilot, and then become part of a multinational joint space exploration force eventually bevoming one of it’s astronauts.He had literally gone to the stars, what better exemplar?

Ttwvgh sat rigidly livid with anger during the Prize address, and then upon being mentioned by name his face burned. But it was not what he was expecting.The pupil thanked him by singling him out for particular praise, said that handwriting was very important but it had taken him a long time to realise this.

Ttwvgh said that he had always known that this pupil would succeed, he may have been harder on him than some others because of this, but now he couldn’t be prouder.

 

Cue thunderous applause and school cheers.

[Saaad]

On 1/9/2021 at 7:39 AM, A Smug Dill said:

General guidance — and perhaps expectation — for regular handwriting is that the ascenders and descenders should be equal in height to each other, and in turn roughly equal to the x-height;

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, this will give my handwriting a harmonious look. 

 

On 1/9/2021 at 7:39 AM, A Smug Dill said:

If you find writing that ‘small’ to be difficult and unnatural, then given the limited amount of time available to you to practise before sitting your exams, I'd suggest you explore whether writing on every second ruled line in the answer book is an option, so that you could use an x-height of up to 4mm.

 

Got it. 

 

 

[Saaad]

On 1/9/2021 at 10:40 AM, BaronWulfraed said:

In truth, I found the sample you  provided in your first post somewhat easier to read, though your "h" seems a touch wider than it needs to be, along with the space between your words (though the above sample also suffers from that -- I'd consider a wide space to be equivalent to the width of the letter "m"). I did notice your "under" has a narrow "u" but a wide "n". In my experience, even in print, those two letters should be the same width ("un" would look the same if you turned the paper upside down). Oh, and you appear to be using a cursive "r" while everything else is print.

 

Oh, each to his own I guess 😅 people consider his better, I think this pic wasn't his best piece. I am eagerly waiting for colleges to open so I can get some good handwriting samples

[Saaad]

On 1/9/2021 at 2:33 PM, arcfide said:

Both your example and the example of your friend's show typical "poor form" mistakes related to proper letter form creation and a number of other things. Additionally, there isn't a generally agreed upon standard for x-height size relative to ascender and descender size, and modern alphabets tends to encourage shorter ascenders and descenders, rather than longer ones. 

 

Even though there isn't an agreed convention, would have smaller letters make writing faster? 

On 1/9/2021 at 2:33 PM, arcfide said:

All of that suggests to me that those technical elements are not the root cause of the issue here. Instead, what your friend's handwriting demonstrates is flow, versus yours, which shows disrupted flow. I think this means to me that you should focus on a unifying movement pattern, and then work to build a more rhythmic writing to your hand. Doing that is likely to improve your style significantly. In other words, remember that you are not trying to draw the letters, but write words rhythmically with a unified motion. Briem has excellent training for this in his handwriting improvement course, and I recommend that you study this, as Briem is probably the fastest and easiest to learn movement-based handwriting method that you can easily get a hold of right now (since it is available online).

Yeah, after all these helpful replies from everyone, I now have a much better and in-depth analysis of my handwriting in my brain. I have been compiling the ideas from here into a list.

On 1/9/2021 at 2:33 PM, arcfide said:

I also include the following sample of example handwritings so that you can see the differences between angular, round, squat, fat, spacious, tall, skinny, and other styles of writing. I suspect that all of these forms would be considered acceptable for your teachers, simply because they are all written with a reasonable degree of confidence. However, you should find the one that allows you to write with the most confidence and develop your rhythmic flow with your hand to ensure that you can manifest that maturity in your own writing. Copying someone's writing won't give it the same oomph as you taking a motion and making it yours. 

 

I would try a number of different variations on your own writing and show it to your teachers, asking them which one they think is better. Then keep doing this through multiple refinements, trying to figure out what is the best style for you to work with. 

 

Here's the sample:

I will try emulating the styles and figure out my own as I go. Thankssss a ton for the pic too, you guys keep on giving!

[Saaad]

On 1/9/2021 at 4:12 PM, Pointyscratchy said:

I did think we were overwhelming young Saaad with so many replies.

I wasn't overwhelmed by the amount of replies and their lengths but rather I was overwhelmed with feelings of happiness. No one even IRL has approached me in such in-depth explanations to try and help me. I am extremely thankful!

 

On 1/9/2021 at 4:12 PM, Pointyscratchy said:

He has responded brilliantly.

Thanks. This makes me feel a little bit at ease because I was feeling  like I am not being able to do justice to the amount of time people are putting in for me 😅

 

On 1/9/2021 at 4:12 PM, Pointyscratchy said:

And that is a very round about way of saying Saad;86%, second in the public exam for your school; what on earth would you have got if they could have read your writing?

Ty for the compliment, I guess 93-4% 😅

 

 

[Saaad]

On 1/9/2021 at 5:52 PM, arcfide said:

Another thing to remember is that the handwriting diagnosis is only based on what his teachers are saying as far as I can tell. The teachers are of a mind, as I understand it, that his handwriting will not be workable in the exams, but I don't know if it has been proven that his handwriting is fundamentally an impediment. It is possible that it is not. It is possible that the examiners/graders actually prefer his handwriting over that of his friends, even if the teachers prefer his friends over his. I don't know if that has been confirmed or not, but that's something to watch out for as well. You want to be careful not to make something worse because you think it isn't optimal right now, unless you have a good way of moving through that value of "less good" to something you know will be better. That requires good feedback and knowledge of what the actual cause of issues might be.

 

It is very possible that the handwriting is only appearing to be a local issue, but that it really isn't a big issue, and it only seems like that because of the comments of his teachers, who may not represent the important parties.

That was on my family's mind as well but the thing is I still have to fix it and match it to their standards because the exams grade marking authorities are those people we never meet or see so their isn't any way to verify any claims about my handwriting. The best bet is to emulate my handwriting to the level of the person who got more marks than me. I have seen the handwritings of some classmates who got more marks than me. And, honestly speaking, those were legible like mine but more beautiful. So, I am sure, I am on the right track trying to make it beautiful 😅

 

On 1/9/2021 at 5:52 PM, arcfide said:

It is very possible that the handwriting is only appearing to be a local issue, but that it really isn't a big issue, and it only seems like that because of the comments of his teachers, who may not represent the important parties. 

Have no way of verifying it than to sit through exams (without fixing handwriting) which a risk.

[Saaad]

On 1/9/2021 at 7:21 PM, Pointyscratchy said:

Half his class will probably end up as doctors for Pete's sake and yet still feel like failures on some level.They are incredibly driven, it's a very different culture to ours.Do or die.

 

I hope they don't feel that way 😅 About the culture, I think it's not that different, any human will be driven if they have to one day support their family. Do or die, that's only my personal preference. I am not sure what my classmates feel.

 

On 1/9/2021 at 7:21 PM, Pointyscratchy said:

His teachers are even pretty damn angry that this years exams dipped under last years.That is viscerally mad.They want 90% plus, and if master penmanship pushes it to 93%, then that missing 3% becomes a major issue.He says it's the statewide custom to put the top pupils names(which would include his) up on a board near the school gates but because of the perceived disgrace of the slight exam dip this has not been enacted.

Yeah, this is the only heartbreaking thing that happened but It's now only the past and I won't let it affect me anymore. 

[Saaad]

On 1/10/2021 at 12:50 AM, ParramattaPaul said:

The second, advice about life offered in the  spirit of friendship by those of us who have lived more decades and experienced more than young Saaad.  Many of us are parents and grandparents who have offered the advice we have and would give our own children and grandchildren.   Others have walked the same path as Saaad and offer the value gained from experience.  Others offer caring wisdom in a spirit of generosity. 

Yes, this turned into more than just a post for me. I am so happy I don't have words to explain the feeling. I feel very accepted. Everyone jumped right into trying to help me, and it speaks very deeply to me. Each reply is carefully written by everyone. Sometimes, I feel like I am not doing their replies justice (I hope I am). Each reply here has changed my ideas and given me something that people around me never bothered to. I have noted everything I can practically and mentally apply. And I hope one day I can forward the generosity everyone showed me to someone just in need like me. 😃

On 1/10/2021 at 12:50 AM, ParramattaPaul said:

This is truly admirable, and deserves to by recognised.  It speaks to the good nature of all who have offered helpful advice. 

 

I will prepare a special written gift when I achieve my desired handwriting to thank all of those who were involved 😃
 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Saaad

[Saaad]

On 1/10/2021 at 12:07 AM, txomsy said:

The actual point is that failure -as we usually conceive it- does not exist. Things just happen. When you void them from their connotations, when you look at them objectively, they are just events. Nothing to be ashamed from.

 

What really makes a difference is how you face your life. Once you accept there is nothing good or wrong with failing or succeeding, you can decide what you do with whatever happens to you in your life. That is what makes the difference.

That's a deep way of looking at things. Indeed, if we look at it objectively, things just happen. They are just a series of events leading upto that specific event. Using this idea, we can also work better (this will remove extra negative emotions over perceived failure). It's a lit bit hard as we are social animals but with time I assume a person can used to this method. 

On 1/10/2021 at 12:07 AM, txomsy said:

Now, I may be terribly wrong, but what I do tell all the students that work with me is that whatever happens they should always look at the advantage in it. There is always a way to look at things where they are advantageous -some way or other- to you. If you can set your feelings aside for just one moment, you may be able to find that way.

The advantage in this for me was wanting to improve my handwriting and ways. If I had just gotten by with that, I wouldn't have had to try and change my views and mentality. And I am sure the mentality I have right now will help me succeed more than that of the past. If I only had gotten by with my handwriting and passed with better marks, I am sure I wouldn't be as caring as I am right now (regarding life and living it properly). 

 

I don't think you are wrong. One thing I have definitely learnt is that 'work gets done when you do it' and sulking (and as you said whining) in sadness of failure certainly doesn't help with that so this method is definitely correct. Just get the positive point in the event, move on, do more, don't let a thing sit rent free in one's headspace for long. 

On 1/10/2021 at 12:07 AM, txomsy said:

That is why I said there is no failure: it is just an experience you can learn from. You can learn what does not work and what does. You can learn what others expect from you. You can learn how it makes you feel. And you can learn how to overcome it and make ity work for you and your future.

 

Yeah and in fact, at this point I feel like some form of failure is required for greater success. A person doesn't properly 'care' if they get everything easily. Failure teaches how to be humble and think sharply and carefully. It also teaches value. 

 

On 1/10/2021 at 12:07 AM, txomsy said:

As for your writing: if you can post some examples we'll be able to help better.

 

As soon as college opens I will get handwriting samples 👍

 

On 1/10/2021 at 12:07 AM, txomsy said:

As for "manliness". In some cultures, it has become a "truism" (not that it is true) that round letter shapes (in the sense of circular. like this) are "feminine", that oval shaped (in the sense of slanted, like this) in the direction of writing are "manly" and express determination, and that oval shaped in the reverse direction "backwards" reflect lack of determination.

 

Oh wow.

 

On 1/10/2021 at 12:07 AM, txomsy said:

Just witness calligraphers: they do not need to be forcefully nice people. So, I would rather look at what made you fail earlier, what got others to pass, and concentrate in mastering whatever writing style works to make you pass.

 

On 1/10/2021 at 12:07 AM, txomsy said:

And when you do, for goodness sake, do celebrate! Life is not about self-denial. but about seeking joy. And, one day you'll discover, the pain you go through to get that joy is what makes that joy worth.

 

There cannot be joy without effort, only boredom.

True words of wisdom 😄👍

[Saaad]

On 1/10/2021 at 4:13 AM, A Smug Dill said:

Looking at your handwriting sample more closely:

 

Thanks for another useful reply. I will put all your corrections into practice 😃

 

On 1/10/2021 at 4:13 AM, A Smug Dill said:

I used to work in Six Sigma process/quality improvement for large corporations (with thousands upon thousands of operational processes that sorta worked as-is), and the key learning is that blindly applying ‘improvement’ tactics is apt to send something to ‘hell’, more efficiently and more consistently than before, if we fail to take the time to identify and analyse current shortcomings, and specify the desired outcomes precisely and meaningfully before putting in revised practices.

Yeah, learned this lesson the hard way but at least I am happy I learned it on time 😅

[Saaad]

On 1/10/2021 at 5:21 AM, Pointyscratchy said:

That's another life lesson for Saaad. Like copying homework, if you see a better idea use it shamelessly.

haha I already do this 👍

[Saaad]

On 1/10/2021 at 5:21 AM, Pointyscratchy said:

I'm nowhere near that ultruistic. I've used this thread as the basis for quite a profound magazine article

Right? This thread literally is like a gold mine to me. I come back time to time to read replies so I don't miss a point. 

[Saaad]

On 1/10/2021 at 9:25 AM, Inky.Fingers said:

I will get this done today 👍

[Saaad]

23 hours ago, Pointyscratchy said:

I do feel we're beating this one to death, but there is something else I'd like to say to Saaad. These sorts of things are where our ideas come from.By that I mean this annoys you, it bothers you.It's quite easy for you to turn that into something else if you know how.If you have the toolbox.It can give you something other people don't have.Here's my example:

 

Story idea.The teacher who valued good handwriting (Ttwvgh).

 

Ttwygh was having a blazing row with the principle.An ex pupil was coming back to make the yearly inspirational speech and give out the prizes. Ttwygh’s problem with this was that this pupil had never scored above 80% while 90% was quite commonplace, and the two had argued constantly over the legibility of his handwriting.The pupil stating his intention to join the army where he did do not need good handwriting.To add to his insolence one infamous day their had appeared on the blackboard;

“To achieve the towering ambition of provincial school teacher good handwriting is foremost. For almost anything else it is not.” Albert Einstein.

 

He had scrubbed the chalked quote away furiously.No one admitted to it even when he had kept the whole class in.To make matters worse the quote had been invented and Einstein had never said any such thing. Ttwvgh knew in his own mind who had written this -for one thing the handwriting was awful- and the memory still stung.

 

The Principle however was insistent.This particular pupil had joined the army, then transferred to the air force as a pilot, and then become part of a multinational joint space exploration force eventually bevoming one of it’s astronauts.He had literally gone to the stars, what better exemplar?

Ttwvgh sat rigidly livid with anger during the Prize address, and then upon being mentioned by name his face burned. But it was not what he was expecting.The pupil thanked him by singling him out for particular praise, said that handwriting was very important but it had taken him a long time to realise this.

Ttwvgh said that he had always known that this pupil would succeed, he may have been harder on him than some others because of this, but now he couldn’t be prouder.

 

Cue thunderous applause and school cheers.

That's a good story, the lesson is to draw motivation and keep on trying and never whine 👍

[Saaad]

I would like to thank each one you for replying. I am currently at a loss of words 😅 I will definitely keep trying and finally improve my handwriting. Once that happens, I will make everyone who replied a special handwritten gift (can't send, will be a photo 😅)

 

I had a question, does this combo seem good?

Handwriting Practice:

 

- Do inky finger's provided exercises

- write all alphabets on a page trying to make my desired outcome

- write 3 pages keeping in mind every advise and try to find my own unique style

 

Is there something I should add?

 

About books, I am currently keeping them a second priority because tbh this thread itself is a good book to follow 👍

[Aum]

Hi!

Your handwriting is legible so you are much better than most people, so stop worrying about it. Good handwriting needs practice and patience, like everything else. From your sample image, i feel that you are not following the strokes properly. Remember, consistency in handwriting comes with practice, so try to write a few pages everyday. You can try the attached template. Good Luck!

[BaronWulfraed]

6 hours ago, Aum said:

 

Borrowing your template for comments to the OP.

 

Remember my comment about the width of lowercase n and u? Look at those in the template (they are stacked above each other on the last two lines). Also note that the h is similar to the n with a taller | and the m is basically two n connected. All the lowercase with loops (abcdegopq) have the same size circle. In this template, the lowercase letters are half the line height (ignoring ascender and descender strokes) -- the so-called "x-height"

.