Please help me fix this lifelong handwriting problem

[Saaad]

22 minutes ago, Inky.Fingers said:

You can start by watching italic lessons on youtube.  https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLy6-FkXJFXKwoLdEF0eATKJ80vE3IICGY

 

To get you started ...do this...

I will do it after my online classes finish

[arcfide]

@Saaad

 

Based on what you have said above, it sounds to me like the main issue is likely to be the "perceived maturity" of your script. In other words, your handwriting is judged on the basis of how mature it looks, not on legibility. In addition to this, I would also suggest that creating a more "masculine hand" is likely to aid in this, because many "feminine hands" will still have a very youthful appearance that is informal and casual. Just like the Baskerville font face adds a degree of formal gravitas to ones writing over something like Times or Comic Sans, creating a slightly more staid, somber, grave, and noble looking hand is likely the way to go. 

 

With that in mind, and keeping in mind that you are looking to stick with print (probably the right choice in the short term), I agree with the general recommendations here to stick with Italic hands. That will get you the biggest bang for the buck, and help you move things forward easiest. But I would also make a few specific recommendations on how to build up your Italic hand, as there are a lot of different ways you can write Italic, and in this case, I think you're likely to want to take it in the direction I mentioned above, simply from an "advertising and marketing" point of view. Here are some specific ideas:

• Focus on the slanted parallelogram as your core letter box
• Use a slightly more aggressive slanting, at least 10 degrees off vertical, definitely at least 5 degrees
• Compress your letters and go for a much more "skinny" letter rather than the very boxy shape they have now, this will give them a more classically Italic look leaning towards Chancery, and likely help "mature" them
• Give yourself more counter spacing (see Lloyd Reynold's Italic videos on Youtube for more details about counter spacing)
• Introduce sharper curvatures and faster corners with more angularity, this will lend a more aggressive bent to your letters
• Stick to the core Italic letter forms, and avoid too many unique stylings in the core letter shapes for now
• Do let yourself introduce some flourishing or energy into your ascenders and descenders, though, this can help aid in the "mature" look.
• Focus on letting your wrist do a lot of the work and developing a rhythmic "up and down" zigzag pattern to your movement of the pen. Emphasizing the downstrokes in your movement and keeping them parallel and consistent on the slant will help to grant more maturity to the letters and also help improve your speed

Among the good Italic books that are out there I can recommend Getty Dubay Write Now as well as Briem's Italic program at briem.net. Lloyd Reynold's Youtube lectures are great as well. 

 

I would also recommend that you look at the letters from the original Arrighi Italic manual just to get some inspiration in "feel" if not an exact copy. 

[txomsy]

I agree on the maturity looks.

 

How to improve? I'll try to explain with my feeble abilities, which sadly means a lot of words.

 

Once, when I was returning home by train (on a long trip when trains were slow and people talked) I happened to sit by an Statistics university professor. At some point he mentioned "I always tell my students that Statistics is the most important matter in their curriculum for, if they don't pass it, they won't graduate".

 

I think the intent is pretty clear. You may argue back and forth about the utility of some subject. I may agree or not with you or your professors. But all of that is secondary. For whichever reason, they have set you a goal; they want you to demonstrate you have what it takes to achieve that goal, and they will not let you pass until you do.

 

So, the first thing is to change your approach. As long as you despise the goal, you will fail. And that is a fact of life, one of the main lessons your teachers should impress into you. Whether it is handwriting or math or religion, is secondary.

 

Most "primitive" societies have passage rituals, which often involve some "difficult" task to demonstrate you are an adult. That is because being an adult, or a professional, implies often having to do things you do not like, and doing them well, not despising something because you personally do not see the point. When you are working, your boss will ask you to do things and, to be efficient, he cannot explain in detail to each worker how to do something nor why. So, if you do not see the point, it is meaningless, you'll still have to do it and do it well.

 

So, the most important thing to become an adult, a professional or to graduate is to demonstrate you can overcome the difficulties no matter how much you like them or whether you understand why it should be done.

 

Then, the problem becomes a different one. It is not about whether it makes sense, or whether your grades are tied to your handwriting. That (having to deal with the unknown, non-understandable) is a fact of life and will always be so (until the last day when you'll have to face Death without understanding why or what for, or how). It's just one challenge to overcome, and the best way about this business is to learn to take pride in your achievements, not to get angry about having to do things you do not understand or like.

 

Now it should be easy: forget about whether it makes sense or not to you, it is only one more challenge to overcome and you are a person who fights life, injustice and gets pride in showing off the quality of your work and the artful craft you can produce. You got a goal and you are going to show the world how great, unstoppable you are. You are the hero of your story and are going to win this war. And you should be grateful to your teachers for setting you goals that take you out of your comfort zone, for helping you get better (even if you do not know what for).

 

In due time it will not be achievement of the goal that will make you happy, it will be the quest itself, the effort, and knowing and being proud that you are a person who looks life straight in the face and does not cower at difficulties. And that pride in yourself will be the best lesson your teachers will have taught you.

 

In a few words:

 

Do not dread challenges, enjoy them and try to give always the best you can. Then nothing will stop you (but Death).

 

Whine, complain, delay and argue everything. Then, few will want to stand by you.

 

Once you get over the anger and angst about having to do something, and embrace the challenge as a proof of your worth, any small improvement will make you happier. Then it will be all downhill.

[Pointyscratchy]

Yes I could read your writing, which is a good thing.

Criticisms.

there are three types of letter, one that sticks up called ascenders such as l k f t d . Descenders with a stick going down j q y p and  then just simple letters that don't do either, e a u o s c

 

Your simple letters are fine, allthough they should be more angular.Think of a right leaning oval, possible a little flat on top.

 

your sticks are your worse bit.

 

There are a lot of scripts on the internet but the one most people could read is the simplest, they call this italic script.

 

There is a thing called "Muscle memory" which means  your hand is trained to do something.The exercise for this is to draw lots of ovals over and over, to write words like minimum over and and over minimum minimum minimum and other words with lots of a's in.

 

You need your hand to roll naturally so that it feels good.

 

Having said all that my handwriting is useless, so don't listen to me.Have you thought about putting a high denomination bank note in with your answer paper?

 

Your story by the way wasn't bad.

 

[BaronWulfraed]

I won't even attempt to evaluate the hand...

 

When my family PCS'd from Germany to Alabama, I ended up going from a school system that was still using printed format to one that had transitioned to cursive halfway through the previous year.

 

The instructors basically tossed the cursive workbook at me and gave me /two weeks/ to convert from print to cursive -- on my own time.

 

I managed, but it is the ugliest cursive around. I tend to use print capitals, some words tail off into squigly lines (especially my signature, which has three cursive capitals [a rare sitituation] being chased by snakes or worms!)

[inkstainedruth]

BaronWulfraed, that still sounds better than the scrawl my husband calls a "signature" (and even his print writing is so atrocious that I have to ask him stuff like "Is that a lowercase S or a lowercase G?").  He got in trouble signing a contract at one place he worked because the company attorneys fussed so much -- in the same document his signature looks three different ways at three different points!  (Of course my response was: "And they were too cheap to hire a notary public?")

My handwriting is moderately legible, but how upright or slanted the letters are when I'm writing in my morning pages journal depend on how awake I am on any given day; of course it probably LOOKS as if I have multiple personality disorder....   And I find that I tend to not do full loops for case descenders, and don't really do "true" cursive (joining the letters) partly because of two many years printing (I still print for writing checks and addressing envelopes).  And I will write a capital I three different ways (sometimes in the same paragraph -- I'll do a line (like a capital I in this font), a capital I with the top and bottom cross bars, and a script I all on the same page...). 

Athough I did break myself of the habit I got into in middle school of making rings instead of dots over lowercase I and J (half the girls in my class did it to -- it wasn't just me doing that; although I can proudly say that I NEVER made them into hearts ).  

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

[Gomer]

To the OP,

 

Some of us will just never be calligraphers or brain surgeons.  Me, for instance.  We lack the fine motor control in our hands and arms.  I took violin lessons for five years before I figured out I couldn't make my fingers move as needed to make decent music.

 

If I'm feeling calm and I take my time, my handwriting looks fair.  But, if I'm nervous or in a hurry, it starts looking ugly.  I have really worked on it and done pages and pages of loops and other figures.  But, my hand doesn't always do what I want.  So, it is what it is.  Don't feel like you are the only one.

 

You might try just doodling for practice.  Maybe you can improve your control of the pen so that your letters are more consistent.  I've read that using your arm more than your fingers helps.  I wish you luck with it.

[Pointyscratchy]

 

This is seemingly quite an urgent issue for young Saad (I'm guessing he's about fifteen).He feels it very keenly.He's in a hyper competitive environment where education is an escape.He's in a large class full of madly competitive over achievers with parents that are caricatures of pushy on one side, zealous teachers on the other and exam markers who can only really judge on presentation because they are probably not familiar with the course work.He's come to us asking for help with his handwriting.Can we?

 

I don't think he needs inspiring.He has a very good grasp of his situation and he's probably in a bigger hole than we've ever been in.The fact that the rest of the world officially gave up on cursive circa 2012/2013  holds no sway in his bit of the galaxy(witness the plethora of New York times/Guardian articles  from that time laying it to rest.Keyboard skills were deemed more important than cursive and that was official.It was buried along with print newspapers and bricks and mortar stores)

 

There are books. I have some.Some are even e books  you can download, but I would doubt he has the cash for these.He seems very well motivated.I hope he finds a way through, but sometimes you have to lose a battle now to win a bigger one later.

[Gomer]

@Pointyscratchy Good points, but what kind of specific help can we give?

[ParramattaPaul]

52 minutes ago, Gomer said:

@Pointyscratchy Good points, but what kind of specific help can we give?

Quite a lot of helpful advice has been offered already.

[brokenclay]

A good downloadable resource with emphasis on italic printing for every day handwriting use rather than calligraphy: https://sites.google.com/view/briem

[Inky.Fingers]

@BrokenClay that is a fabulous link.  I wished I had it when I started my italic 5 yrs ago.

[txomsy]

Saaad, could you also post some samples of the handwriting that your teachers like? That would help us figure out which advice to give and avoid advising something that will downgrade your marks.

 

Sorry for the long post. Read only if you are bored to death and have nothing better to do. There are only the ramblings of a silly, verbose old person.

 

I gut-feel PointySratchy is mostly right but, wouldn't it be possible that the teachers really knew about the subject and were concerned about their students' future? Specially when you live in an less favorable area, you tend to feel that in order to succeed in better favored regions (or just to be able to competitively offer your works) you need to excel.

 

From that point of view, if I were one of those teachers I would certainly pay attention to contents, but also to design. I mean, not just technical aspects, but also to how works are expressed and displayed.

 

I do not think that asserting that form is useless versus content does anyone who must pass a favor. Unless one is self-motivated, getting anything done may become terribly uphill.

 

“If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea.” 

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

 

Despising your professors or education has rarely been a good motivation. Understanding that life is full of challenges and taking pride in facing them (and learning to fail --and from failure), no matter what the challenge was, has, however, always helped me. YMMV.

 

Then there is another dimension. Some cultures have traditionally avoided images and compensated towards the writing word. In those, writing is an art to be mastered and the quality of a person has traditionally been measured to a relevant level by their writing. You should see the walls of Alhambra or Topkapi to appreciate the extent.

 

Before anyone else complains, think of how much proper live presentations -for instance- are now valued in many cultures. I wouldn't be too harsh on the teachers without knowing more.

 

As for more practical advice... Italic? maybe. Cursive? maybe. Printing? maybe. Arabic calligraphy? maybe. Chinese calligraphy? maybe... One's choice may not be acceptable to others.

 

I think it is better to see what the teachers demand, either by looking at their own writing or at the writing of other students that are praised by them, and then try to emulate that. Again, different cultures favor different scripts. If you are going to be judged by it, it is better to play the rules than to argue with judges your right to take judgement in your own hands your own way. Lynch's law is also widely frowned upon in most cultures.

 

Whatever the script, look for samples and try to emulate them.

 

Winning a race is about being fast. But also about running in the right direction. And comparing your position  to that of others. And thinking. And trailing the leader. And then strategy. And sprinting. And losing.

 

I had a sports teacher who always repeated "the trick is to never overdo it, just don't". When you want to cultivate a new discipline (be it muscle memory or any other), overdoing it means pain, hating it, then not progressing and, abandonment.

 

Start first slowly with a few slow lines, aiming for quality, then stop, do something else and try another few slow lines,... until you can do a page. Then do one a day. Then, as you feel the urge, do more. As you improve, positive feedback will provide you your reward and you will want to do more. And so on. Then you will be chained to success for the rest of your life.

 

Look for friends. Like this forum. Having friends who also hold the values you want and provide encouragement and advice is a great asset. We are social animals. Look for good friends who hold good values. But don't dismiss those who don't. There is a place for everything in life.

 

Do not criticize your professors. Complaining about and blaming others is called "whining" and often frowned upon. Fight to be better. Your professors, most likely (or so you must think) are loving and caring for you (they care for you and your education or they wouldn't point your weaknesses). They will likely tend to be softer than needed. You should be your worst critic. Avoid those who do not criticize, adulators only seek your failure.

 

Choose your "heroes" to emulate. Once you know your goal, look at those who excelled in it and try to emulate their work. But choose wisely your leaders. Try to avoid those who advocate the easy way and blame trouble on others, those are usually scammers. You do not need to be equal to the masters, you  are human and have imagination, you can find your own way and surpass them --provided you are also capable of self-criticism to actually improve. That is what your teachers are demanding from you.

 

We can help. With samples, we can point you to master calligraphers that match your needs so you can emulate their work. Consider that beautiful handwriting usually responds (beside the script) to uniformity and shape. Look at your work and see what defects you can see. That will also help you avoid them. Try to make letters uniform, in size, width, slant (or the lack of), separation (or joining), mind the space between words... We can help you if you provide some samples of what your teachers consider good handwriting by providing a trained eye and quicker advice. You will need that ability (humility+self-criticism) all of your life.

 

To all who say content is all important: Not in my experience. As important as knowledge, has been in my experience (and I do have a highly specialized technical job) the ability to present it properly, to do "beautiful/elegant" developments/demonstrations, the ability to compare your work to others' work, striving (not necessarily succeeding) to make yours better and the ability to improve continuously. But that is just me.

 

Anyway, if your teachers demand from you that, any other consideration is moot: you just have to overcome the challenge to pass. Cherish the challenge.

[Inky.Fingers]

Writing position.  This works for both lefty and righty. 

 

Practice for under-writing positions.

Tri-pod hold.

Gliding nails .

Anchoring at the fleshy part of the arm.

 

 

 

 

(If you don't have a large writing surface, substitute the arm-flesh part with the side of the palm.

 

Drills are to be done as exactly as possible.  Slow intentional practice is better then fast and furious.  Training your muscle to dance with the pen, and not forcing.

[ParramattaPaul]

Your comment, '... if you don't have a large writing surface...', has explained for the first time why I use the side of my hand instead of my arm as the pivot/rest when I write.  It is the result of being left handed and having to use/share desks built for right handers and a right handed world. In a shared desk, paired as I was with a right handed desk mate I would be seated on the left so we wouldn't bump elbows as we wrote. This meant that my writing arm was hanging off the desk.

 

It was worse when we had the little personal desks with barely enough space for a notebook. 

[arcfide]

11 hours ago, ParramattaPaul said:

It was worse when we had the little personal desks with barely enough space for a notebook. 

 

The old Palmer, Spencerian, and Zaner-Bloser manuals include three desk positions that were in common use at the time, and each designed to accommodate a different degree of space and type of book. The right oblique position for right handed writers would enable them to write in a large ledger that could not be slanted or rotated off the desk, and still retain a significant amount of arm on the desk for stability. The same positions could likely be adapted to the left handed writer to accommodate smaller desk sizes while increasing the amount of forearm that is used, at least if you want to retain the traditional American muscle movements in penmanship. These differ from those muscle movements prescribed for Italic penmanship. 

[Stompie]

Your style of writing might be greatly improved by the mere use of an Italic/Stub pen instead of what looks like a straight forward standard fountain pen or ballpoint pen. Are you allowed to use fountain pens at school?

 

I have seen it over the years, people with a fairly plain and boring handwriting style get a huge boost when they use a stub/italic pen instead. 

If you can not afford one then keep watch on the PIF thread in case someone offers one up for you. 

[Saaad]

On 1/4/2021 at 3:02 PM, arcfide said:

Based on what you have said above, it sounds to me like the main issue is likely to be the "perceived maturity" of your script. In other words, your handwriting is judged on the basis of how mature it looks, not on legibility.

After reading your reply I pondered about this. This might be part of the issue. 

 

On 1/4/2021 at 3:02 PM, arcfide said:

In addition to this, I would also suggest that creating a more "masculine hand" is likely to aid in this, because many "feminine hands" will still have a very youthful appearance that is informal and casual. Just like the Baskerville font face adds a degree of formal gravitas to ones writing over something like Times or Comic Sans, creating a slightly more staid, somber, grave, and noble looking hand is likely the way to go. 

 

 

On 1/4/2021 at 3:02 PM, arcfide said:

Focus on the slanted parallelogram as your core letter box

 

On 1/4/2021 at 3:02 PM, arcfide said:

Compress your letters and go for a much more "skinny" letter rather than the very boxy shape they have now, this will give them a more classically Italic look leaning towards Chancery, and likely help "mature" them

 

On 1/4/2021 at 3:02 PM, arcfide said:

Introduce sharper curvatures and faster corners with more angularity, this will lend a more aggressive bent to your letters

I didn't understand these parts.
 

 

On 1/4/2021 at 3:02 PM, arcfide said:

Among the good Italic books that are out there I can recommend Getty Dubay Write Now as well as Briem's Italic program at briem.net. Lloyd Reynold's Youtube lectures are great as well. 

 

I would also recommend that you look at the letters from the original Arrighi Italic manual just to get some inspiration in "feel" if not an exact copy. 

I will look into it after replying to others  

[Saaad]

On 1/4/2021 at 4:59 PM, txomsy said:

I think the intent is pretty clear. You may argue back and forth about the utility of some subject. I may agree or not with you or your professors. But all of that is secondary. For whichever reason, they have set you a goal; they want you to demonstrate you have what it takes to achieve that goal, and they will not let you pass until you do.

Yeah. You are right. I have realized, success in our country is most likely do or die. It's very competitive here. We have very talented people here. 

 

On 1/4/2021 at 4:59 PM, txomsy said:

So, the first thing is to change your approach. As long as you despise the goal, you will fail. And that is a fact of life, one of the main lessons your teachers should impress into you. Whether it is handwriting or math or religion, is secondary.

I don't despise the goal. I just used to (as of some days ago) despise the fact that the things they make us focus on, and our educational system is outdated. But I don't think like this anymore. If I keep trying, I will eventually find some way. For me, my previous mentality (not days ago, but rather 1 year ago) was, 'Everything's outdated, how will I succeed?'. There was even a whole year where I was severely anxious. I used to think why isn't anyone caring about their future. Eventually after ups and downs, I realized that, no one cares if I am sick or anxious, one just gotta do what they gotta do. And, that one day, eventually, if I keep trying, I will get true success. Now, my mentality is like, 'if I fall daily, I will get up daily'.

On 1/4/2021 at 4:59 PM, txomsy said:

Most "primitive" societies have passage rituals, which often involve some "difficult" task to demonstrate you are an adult. That is because being an adult, or a professional, implies often having to do things you do not like, and doing them well, not despising something because you personally do not see the point. When you are working, your boss will ask you to do things and, to be efficient, he cannot explain in detail to each worker how to do something nor why. So, if you do not see the point, it is meaningless, you'll still have to do it and do it well.

I have someone in my family I look upto and they are the definition of a hardworking adult. They work almost all day. You explanation made me think of them and I believe whatever you say to be correct.

 

 

On 1/4/2021 at 4:59 PM, txomsy said:

So, the most important thing to become an adult, a professional or to graduate is to demonstrate you can overcome the difficulties no matter how much you like them or whether you understand why it should be done.

 

Yeah, I am trying to take better care of my health so I can become a selfless hardworking who only works and doesn't worry. I am trying to make 'even if I fail, I will try again' a part of me practically rather than just you know say it.

 

On 1/4/2021 at 4:59 PM, txomsy said:

hen, the problem becomes a different one. It is not about whether it makes sense, or whether your grades are tied to your handwriting. That (having to deal with the unknown, non-understandable) is a fact of life and will always be so (until the last day when you'll have to face Death without understanding why or what for, or how). It's just one challenge to overcome, and the best way about this business is to learn to take pride in your achievements, not to get angry about having to do things you do not understand or like.

 

Now it should be easy: forget about whether it makes sense or not to you, it is only one more challenge to overcome and you are a person who fights life, injustice and gets pride in showing off the quality of your work and the artful craft you can produce. You got a goal and you are going to show the world how great, unstoppable you are. You are the hero of your story and are going to win this war. And you should be grateful to your teachers for setting you goals that take you out of your comfort zone, for helping you get better (even if you do not know what for).

I have developed a very simple yet very effective rule that helped me basically combat my anxiety to the fullest. It is 'work gets done when you do it'. It's very simple yet insanely effective. Sometimes people who suffer from anxiety tend to lose a sense of what actually happens in reality. Fear of failure renders one to not try. But if we look at it, reality says if you try, you will do it. So that one simple rule really helped everytime I got that fear of failure. 

And about my teachers, I guess personal feelings aside, those goals do tend to take someone out of their comfort zone. The reason I used the words personal feelings is that there was this specific period where I was depressed to the point of suicidal thoughts (due to parents divorce issues). And now as you may realized, teachers guilt tripping me into feeling I don't try as hard didn't go well with that mental state. I started despising my own existence thinking I am worthless and can't succeed. As I said I am from Pakistan, and I am from a middle class family, and the fact that most people consider mental illness a sign of weakness, no one really realized what I was going through. I have been called lazy, a 'less' of a man. No teachers realized either. I fell in a pit, but as I realized the only person who can help me is only me, I pulled myself out. Self-dependence is true freedom. How to explain it? I got tired of being tired ig. So, the whole reason to writing this wasn't self pity (I hate that), it was just meant to serve as a look at my perspective. I don't hate my teachers and some specific people but I don't love them as well. 
 

On 1/4/2021 at 4:59 PM, txomsy said:

In due time it will not be achievement of the goal that will make you happy, it will be the quest itself, the effort, and knowing and being proud that you are a person who looks life straight in the face and does not cower at difficulties. And that pride in yourself will be the best lesson.

 

 

On 1/4/2021 at 4:59 PM, txomsy said:

Do not dread challenges, enjoy them and try to give always the best you can. Then nothing will stop you (but Death).

 

Whine, complain, delay and argue everything. Then, few will want to stand by you.

 

Once you get over the anger and angst about having to do something, and embrace the challenge as a proof of your worth, any small improvement will make you happier. Then it will be all downhill.

That's wonderfully written I will keep this in mind. Thanks  

[Saaad]

On 1/4/2021 at 8:02 PM, Pointyscratchy said:

Your simple letters are fine, allthough they should be more angular.Think of a right leaning oval, possible a little flat on top.

I didn't get this.

 

 

On 1/4/2021 at 8:02 PM, Pointyscratchy said:

There is a thing called "Muscle memory" which means  your hand is trained to do something.The exercise for this is to draw lots of ovals over and over, to write words like minimum over and and over minimum minimum minimum and other words with lots of a's in.

Yeah, I realized my younger dumb self trained my muscle memory with the bad handwriting even when practicing because I was mindlessly doing it thinking that just writing will make it better lol.

 

Quote

Having said all that my handwriting is useless, so don't listen to me.Have you thought about putting a high denomination bank note in with your answer paper?

Haha, never would do that.
 

Quote

Your story by the way wasn't bad.

Thanks  

Edited January 8, 2021 by Saaad