Problem with Pilot Heritage 91 drystarting.

[Asteris]

A friend's pen (Pilot Heritage 91 <M> tip) with a con 40 has drystarting problems. The tines are good, the feed matches with the breather hole, and the ink used is a wet ink (Waterman inspired Blue) and they are using Rhodia paper. During writing, if the tip of the nib is lifted for more than 2 seconds, the tip dries up and so in the next word to be written(or even letter) there is drystarting. While the tip touches the paper the nib is perfect: wet with no skipping. But the moment the tip leaves the paper, it immediately dries up. So what I did is I starting writing and when I stopped, I immediately checked the tip and I saw that within 1.5 - 2 sec. the ink that was on the tip was sucked in the nib. Is that normal? That doesn't happen with my Metropolitan, where the ink stays on the tip after writing, even with the driest of inks. Help would be very much appreciated.

 

 

 

 

[Claes]

Is there a gap between the nib and the ink feed?

 

Have fun!
Claes in Lund, Sweden

[Asteris]

23 minutes ago, Claes said:

Is there a gap between the nib and the ink feed?

 

Have fun!
Claes in Lund, Sweden

Not anything visible to the naked eye, oy me low mag loop. Should I try sqeezing the nib and feed together?

[Lithium466]

Hard to say on the picture but the tine gap appears very tight?

Also Waterman ink and wet in the same sentence, hum...I'd try with some Pilot ink just to see if that makes a difference.

[arcfide]

Couple of things could be involved here, so you'd need to pay careful attention to the nib, but I have experienced things just like what you are describing, and ironically, it tends to happen specifically with traditional turquoise inks like Waterman Inspired Blue, Pelikan 4001 Turquoise, or Platinum's Aqua Blue. These inks tend to have a very high surface tension, so they can put down a clean line of wet looking ink, but they can exacerbate any baby's bottom or other things that might be done to make a nib smooth. I've experienced what you describe on various nibs I have, all of which tend towards the smoother end of the spectrum, and specifically my 823 Broad nib. 

 

As for what is actually going on, there are two things I'd double check. When the ink "sucks back up" to the nib, how far back does it go? Does it leave just a little gap at the tip, or is the ink visibly retracted from the entire tip of the nib? I suspect the former, because you said there wasn't a visible tine gap at the tip of the nib. This may mean that there is either a very slight baby's bottom on the nib or the tipping is just off ever so slightly (we're talking *very* slight here). What can be happening is that a tiny gap is created at the tip when the ink dries out just a little at the nib, made possible from the high surface tension of the ink. This is just enough to cause a hard start, but only after the ink airs out a little. 

 

Without grinding the tip (probably not needed here), only a very deft adjustment of the tip is likely to fix it if you want to use that ink specifically, and even then, you might experience some issue. What I've found often works is giving the pen a tiny bit of "rest time" on the page before a stroke while I'm writing, or a little tiny bump at the beginning to get the pen started if I'm afraid of a hard start. Not ideal, of course, but perhaps best if you don't want to tweak the nib too much. 

 

What you might also consider doing is to decrease the surface tension by just a little, which can bring the turquoise inks into line with other inks, and eliminate the problem entirely. You can see if this will work for you by giving Pilot Iroshizuku or Pilot standard inks a try in the pen. Especially, Pilot Standard Blue Black would be a good test, or Kon-peki/Ku-Jaku/Asa-gao. All of those should "just work" because they have much lower surface tensions, IME. If you only have Waterman inks to try, they all have similar surface tensions, but I would expect Serenity and Mysterious Blue and Intense Black to behave just a tiny bit better in this case over what I've seen from Inspired Blue. For whatever reason, I've seen turquoise inks be more susceptible to this sort of thing. 

[Asteris]

11 hours ago, Lithium466 said:

Hard to say on the picture but the tine gap appears very tight?

Also Waterman ink and wet in the same sentence, hum...I'd try with some Pilot ink just to see if that makes a difference.

Tried Parker quink Blue (permanet) the results are much better. 

[Asteris]

8 hours ago, arcfide said:

Couple of things could be involved here, so you'd need to pay careful attention to the nib, but I have experienced things just like what you are describing, and ironically, it tends to happen specifically with traditional turquoise inks like Waterman Inspired Blue, Pelikan 4001 Turquoise, or Platinum's Aqua Blue. These inks tend to have a very high surface tension, so they can put down a clean line of wet looking ink, but they can exacerbate any baby's bottom or other things that might be done to make a nib smooth. I've experienced what you describe on various nibs I have, all of which tend towards the smoother end of the spectrum, and specifically my 823 Broad nib. 

 

As for what is actually going on, there are two things I'd double check. When the ink "sucks back up" to the nib, how far back does it go? Does it leave just a little gap at the tip, or is the ink visibly retracted from the entire tip of the nib? I suspect the former, because you said there wasn't a visible tine gap at the tip of the nib. This may mean that there is either a very slight baby's bottom on the nib or the tipping is just off ever so slightly (we're talking *very* slight here). What can be happening is that a tiny gap is created at the tip when the ink dries out just a little at the nib, made possible from the high surface tension of the ink. This is just enough to cause a hard start, but only after the ink airs out a little. 

 

Without grinding the tip (probably not needed here), only a very deft adjustment of the tip is likely to fix it if you want to use that ink specifically, and even then, you might experience some issue. What I've found often works is giving the pen a tiny bit of "rest time" on the page before a stroke while I'm writing, or a little tiny bump at the beginning to get the pen started if I'm afraid of a hard start. Not ideal, of course, but perhaps best if you don't want to tweak the nib too much. 

 

What you might also consider doing is to decrease the surface tension by just a little, which can bring the turquoise inks into line with other inks, and eliminate the problem entirely. You can see if this will work for you by giving Pilot Iroshizuku or Pilot standard inks a try in the pen. Especially, Pilot Standard Blue Black would be a good test, or Kon-peki/Ku-Jaku/Asa-gao. All of those should "just work" because they have much lower surface tensions, IME. If you only have Waterman inks to try, they all have similar surface tensions, but I would expect Serenity and Mysterious Blue and Intense Black to behave just a tiny bit better in this case over what I've seen from Inspired Blue. For whatever reason, I've seen turquoise inks be more susceptible to this sort of thing. 

Thanks for your detailed answer. I switched to my daily Parker quink Blue (pemanent) and the results are better. When the inks gets sucked in, there is ink between the tines all the way to the tip, but there is no ink on the tip "cheeks" themselves. So on the first stroke. The first have when the tines don't open doesn't have ink. On the second part of the stroke, when the tines have opened just slightly, there is ink. I am uploading a drawing to better explain this.

As you can see, on my metro the channel and the tip have ink on them after writing.

On the Heritage 91, after writing the channel has ink but the ink ink on the tip itself gets sucked back to the channel.

[Doc Dan]

How long has this issue been happening? I had a Pilot Custom 74 w/ medium nib that would dry start, even after changing the nib. I changed ink to Pilot regular black. It is cheap. Then, I scribbled around on the page a lot. After a bit, the hard starting stopped and the pen works wonderfully, now. This is not advice, but merely my experience. 

 

 

[Asteris]

3 minutes ago, Doc Dan said:

How long has this issue been happening? I had a Pilot Custom 74 w/ medium nib that would dry start, even after changing the nib. I changed ink to Pilot regular black. It is cheap. Then, I scribbled around on the page a lot. After a bit, the hard starting stopped and the pen works wonderfully, now. This is not advice, but merely my experience. 

 

 

The pen has been cleaned and I put Parker quink Blue and the results have improved a lot. Maybe because it is a solid gold nib, it change after enough writing?

[Lithium466]

It could be a case of "baby bottom", that could eventually wear out, or with use the tines will become a bit softer and/or spread out and so the ink flow will increase just enough for the pen not to hard start...

 

Short of trying with some Pilot ink (or something with lower surface tension), I'd try widening the tines gap just a bit. Next step would be to polish the tip just a touch.

[arcfide]

Thanks for the diagram. I suspect that the highly polished nature of the tipping and the very dry nature of Turquoise inks is causing the issues here, coupled with the way that Pilot grinds their nibs. Generally, after a little rest time, depending on how dry the ink is, there may be no ink sitting around on the "cheeks" of the tipping. This usually isn't an issue, since the tine gap provides a means for the ink to go directly from the channel to the page, and once that connection is made, the ink almost instantly spreads to the rest of the nib tipping. However, if the way the nib is ground prevents that ink from making initial contact even ever so slightly, you can get a dry first stroke. I am convinced that there is a tiny bit of micro anti-polishing that you achieve when writing on papers that tends to make this issue "go away" after a little break in period if the nib is right on the edge of working right, so it is possible that your pen will work better with these inks after doing some writing over time. 

 

By playing with the tine gap, assuming that there isn't a very serious baby's bottom situation going on (doesn't sound like it), it is possible to improve reliability in this dimension, but my experience is that it is a very delicate balance to retain both a wet writing nib and also avoid dry starts. 

 

My recommendation would be to use it and write with it extensively for a little while, especially on any rougher paper that you may have (cotton, toothy, etc.) to see if you can introduce some buffing to the tipping that might encourage better ink adhesion and improve the way that the ink interfaces with the tipping at the end of the pen. After that, you might be able to see if there is something with the tip alignment, tine spacing, and so forth, but for a problem this subtle, I'd say that's a pretty advanced and subtle adjustment to expect someone to make. 

[Asteris]

7 minutes ago, arcfide said:

Thanks for the diagram. I suspect that the highly polished nature of the tipping and the very dry nature of Turquoise inks is causing the issues here, coupled with the way that Pilot grinds their nibs. Generally, after a little rest time, depending on how dry the ink is, there may be no ink sitting around on the "cheeks" of the tipping. This usually isn't an issue, since the tine gap provides a means for the ink to go directly from the channel to the page, and once that connection is made, the ink almost instantly spreads to the rest of the nib tipping. However, if the way the nib is ground prevents that ink from making initial contact even ever so slightly, you can get a dry first stroke. I am convinced that there is a tiny bit of micro anti-polishing that you achieve when writing on papers that tends to make this issue "go away" after a little break in period if the nib is right on the edge of working right, so it is possible that your pen will work better with these inks after doing some writing over time. 

 

By playing with the tine gap, assuming that there isn't a very serious baby's bottom situation going on (doesn't sound like it), it is possible to improve reliability in this dimension, but my experience is that it is a very delicate balance to retain both a wet writing nib and also avoid dry starts. 

 

My recommendation would be to use it and write with it extensively for a little while, especially on any rougher paper that you may have (cotton, toothy, etc.) to see if you can introduce some buffing to the tipping that might encourage better ink adhesion and improve the way that the ink interfaces with the tipping at the end of the pen. After that, you might be able to see if there is something with the tip alignment, tine spacing, and so forth, but for a problem this subtle, I'd say that's a pretty advanced and subtle adjustment to expect someone to make. 

Thank for your answer. I'm thankfully that you found my diagramm helpfull. I also don't believe that there is any problem with the tines or the feed, since the drystarting only appears in the specific situations aforementioned. Once the converter gets empty, I will switch it with the black namiki ink cartridge that came with the pen. At the mean time I will use the rougher paper that I have. Then I will update this topic feed with the results.

[Claes]

>rougher paper

 

How rough? Like ordinary office copier paper?

 

Have fun!
Claes in Lund, Sweden

 

[Asteris]

2 hours ago, Lithium466 said:

It could be a case of "baby bottom", that could eventually wear out, or with use the tines will become a bit softer and/or spread out and so the ink flow will increase just enough for the pen not to hard start...

 

Short of trying with some Pilot ink (or something with lower surface tension), I'd try widening the tines gap just a bit. Next step would be to polish the tip just a touch.

Isn't baby bottom associated with scratchiness?

[Lithium466]

Not necessarily, it usually comes with overpolishing the "inside" sides of the nib tines.
 

[senzen]

I would do a thorough cleaning: at least flushing with a drop of dishwashing liquid in a cup of water, with a bulb syringe; these are easy to disassemble, you could also just take a soapy brush to the feed. Or you could use a dedicated pen flush like diluted Rapido Eze. I would also refrain from messing with the nib until then...

 

My one 91 seems to dry a bit quicker than other pens, if not at Safari or Sonent speeds, with a con-50.

[Asteris]

UPDATE: I've cleaned the pen and put the Pilot black ink cartridge that came with the pen. Sadly there is still the same problem, BUT there are also changes. The hardstarting area of the letter is smaller, the time it takes for the ink to get sucked pack to ink channel of the nib is double compared to using the other inks(so it stays on the tip "cheeks" longer) and the "resting" technic that @arcfideproposed works better.

Any opinions?

[arcfide]

One other thing to check, is whether the alignment you have to the paper with that nib is just a tiny bit rotated. It's very common for people who are right handed to rotate the nib just a little inward, which, if you have a highly polished nib, can keep the slit away from the paper more than might be expected. A thing I do to check is to find when the nib has "dried out", and before wetting it again, I test very gentle touches to the paper at very meticulous angles, rotating by about 5 degrees each touch to see how wide the writing angle is. Some nibs are sensitive to first touch angle, and you need to be right on the sweet spot to get ink to flow quickly. You can also confirm some things by examining the nib with a loupe at that point and see how much of a "dip" appears at the tine slit when the pen is at your writing angle. Pens with high first stroke reliability will appear to have a smooth, almost flat surface at the tip of the nib, whereas on nibs that have a touch of baby's bottom or that are highly polished, you will see a very tiny valley or hill at the slit. 

 

If you are using very smooth paper, this can exacerbate this problem, so you can also try using a rougher paper. 

 

To answer your other question about baby's bottom, it is actually the opposite of what you thought: nibs with baby's bottom tend to be overly smooth, not scratchy. This is because the inside of the tines are overly rounded out, which makes the pen extremely smooth at a wider range of rotations, but also causes the ink to "suck back in" from where the tip contacts the paper. Too much of that and you get hard starts. 

 

For reliability, I wouldn't worry about ink on the "cheeks", as all inks will recede from the surface of the tipping in time, and that's not what will make the pen reliable or not on the first stroke. You should focus on the nib slit and ink meniscus. 

 

At this point, you'll want to specifically diagnose your issue, and I recommend you look at this to learn how to do that:

 

workshop_notes (richardspens.com)

 

 

[Asteris]

22 hours ago, arcfide said:

One other thing to check, is whether the alignment you have to the paper with that nib is just a tiny bit rotated. It's very common for people who are right handed to rotate the nib just a little inward, which, if you have a highly polished nib, can keep the slit away from the paper more than might be expected. A thing I do to check is to find when the nib has "dried out", and before wetting it again, I test very gentle touches to the paper at very meticulous angles, rotating by about 5 degrees each touch to see how wide the writing angle is. Some nibs are sensitive to first touch angle, and you need to be right on the sweet spot to get ink to flow quickly. You can also confirm some things by examining the nib with a loupe at that point and see how much of a "dip" appears at the tine slit when the pen is at your writing angle. Pens with high first stroke reliability will appear to have a smooth, almost flat surface at the tip of the nib, whereas on nibs that have a touch of baby's bottom or that are highly polished, you will see a very tiny valley or hill at the slit. 

 

If you are using very smooth paper, this can exacerbate this problem, so you can also try using a rougher paper. 

 

To answer your other question about baby's bottom, it is actually the opposite of what you thought: nibs with baby's bottom tend to be overly smooth, not scratchy. This is because the inside of the tines are overly rounded out, which makes the pen extremely smooth at a wider range of rotations, but also causes the ink to "suck back in" from where the tip contacts the paper. Too much of that and you get hard starts. 

 

For reliability, I wouldn't worry about ink on the "cheeks", as all inks will recede from the surface of the tipping in time, and that's not what will make the pen reliable or not on the first stroke. You should focus on the nib slit and ink meniscus. 

 

At this point, you'll want to specifically diagnose your issue, and I recommend you look at this to learn how to do that:

 

workshop_notes (richardspens.com)

 

 

Well while I do have my pen at an angle, my paper is also at the same angle so is counters it. Now for the baby bottom or the best starting angle. I will get back at you later.

[arcfide]

8 hours ago, Asteris said:

Well while I do have my pen at an angle, my paper is also at the same angle so is counters it.

 

What I mean by angle here is the rotation of the pen along the axis that is parallel to the slit of the nib. You can't really rotate your paper to counter such rotation unless you are literally rotating your desk/notebook in a way that rotates the notebook off of level (which you could do if you were sitting the notebook on your lap, I guess, or had a table that tilted). How shallow or deep the pen angle is held can have some effect, but only in that you need to make sure that the tipping is aligned for that angle. Likewise, the overall orientation of the body along the z-axis of the paper isn't a concern.