Sailor Possibly Being Bought Out

[BaronWulfraed]

To be discontinued:

Promenade, Pro Gear Sigma; possibly Millecolore, Barcarolle, and Young Profit

https://tokyoinklings.com/episodes/e002/

 

Which would make the Barcarolle short-lived.

 

Very short lived -- I pre-ordered in January, and haven't heard anything since. (Still shows as back-ordered on nibs.com)

[mke]

>

To be discontinued:

Promenade, Pro Gear Sigma; possibly Millecolore, Barcarolle, and Young Profit

https://tokyoinkling.../episodes/e002/

 

Isn't that a guess?

[Olya]

>

To be discontinued:

Promenade, Pro Gear Sigma; possibly Millecolore, Barcarolle, and Young Profit

https://tokyoinkling.../episodes/e002/

 

Isn't that a guess?

I don't know, possibly, but stock of the Promenade is very low on Sailor's own site and Pensachi have said it's being discontinued, whether they go by the podcast or have inside knowledge I don't know, either.

https://sailorshop.jp/SHOP/11-1031.html

 

I also can't find the Young Profit anymore on their site.

Or the Millecolore or Barcarolle.

 

The Sigma is still there, not sure how good the stock is.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Olya

[inkstainedruth]

Just saw another thread where someone reviewed the new Sailor Compass (which, according to the OP, is effectively a Sailor Profit, just with translucent materials).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Olya]

Just saw another thread where someone reviewed the new Sailor Compass (which, according to the OP, is effectively a Sailor Profit, just with translucent materials).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

That pen is called "Compass" in the US and "Profit Jr" in other markets. It is effectively the same as the Professor and same as the ProColor/Shikiori (except nib+feed in this case).

 

The Young Profit is skinny and has flat ends.

https://www.thewritingdesk.co.uk/brands/sailor-pens/sailor-1911-young-somiko/

 

The best bit about this pen is (was?) that the black model came with all of Sailor's nib sizes and writes like their gold nibs, so giving you an accurate impression of the Zoom, Music, Broad etc nibs before potentially committing to more expensive Sailors (or staying with these, mine's been inked now for over 5 years non-stop and still goes perfectly).

 

Edit

 

The Compass has the same nib as the Lecoule, the Young Profit (Somiko) has the same nib as the ProColor/Shikiori pens and the Fasciner.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Olya

[RJS]

I bought my first Sailor pen here in China and it was not easy. They don't seem to advertise much and they don't have the name recognition that Pilot and Platinum have. I had to sift through pages of links to stores on Baopals (Translated Taobao with English customer service) to find someone selling them. When you walk into boutique stores selling trendy stationery, coffee table books, and anime themed gifts, Platinum and Pilot are far more likely to be seen along with Kaweco, Pelikan Twist, and Schneider. There are always pens from N9 or M&G on display as well. The online images and material provided by Sailor are not as splashy as those provided by the Chinese companies, and the brand doesn't seem to have the history here to build on nostalgia, or quality. China is still a place where the corner store usually sells fountain pens and bottled ink is everywhere. The posts in this thread that mention Sailor having problems in China seem true from what I can see.

I agree with what you say- Sailor are pretty invisible in China. I don't recall seeing their pens or inks in a physical shop, whilst Pilot and Lamy (for example) are everywhere.

[RJS]

I don't think that students in Japan use fountain pens.

That's interesting- in Changzhou, China, primary school children MUST use fountain pens in grades 3,4,5 at a minimum. I don't know how widespread this policy is, but friends have told me they all had to use a fountain pen at school. Edited October 24, 2020 by RJS

[Honeybadgers]

Hmmm. Maybe this is the reason for Sailor to raise all their prices and stuff such as switching to smaller ink bottles.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

 

dunno but it sure made me stop buying their products altogether.

 

I'm guessing it has more to do with the recession. This hobby is the first thing to go when I'm tight on cash.

[Olya]

I think anyone who follows Sailor has noticed some changes.

 

To me, the biggest change is their really slim offer of nib sizes (apart from the frankly obnoxious price hike).

It seems it's almost all MF only, steel and gold nibs, anything outside MF seems like almost an exception.

 

Anyone know anything more about this?

Is MF the cheapest to produce/most sold?

 

I find it baffling that some lines are sold with MF only, even though the same nib and feed is produced for other lines with more nib choices (eg Pro Gear Slim, PGS Mini, 1911 Standard all share the same nib & feed and yet some of these are MF only (eg Shikiori)).

[A Smug Dill]

2 hours ago, Olya said:

It seems it's almost all MF only, steel and gold nibs, anything outside MF seems like almost an exception.

 

I don't share your observation. The pared down nib options mainly apply to the dainty and/or pretty editions and colours that are not marketed overseas only — in other words, that are primarily targeted at the domestic market catering to its cultural and consumer sentiments, because the preferences and concerns of outsiders can never been deemed equal or important, if not split out as a special case — but mainly appeal to women and youngsters (or the young-at-heart) in Japan. None of the overseas-only, or (in some cases) North American exclusive, new releases — including the upcoming Blue Green Nebula — are limited to MF nibs only.

 

It also doesn't seem to apply to shop-exclusive and/or ‘collab’ editions of the gold-nibbed Profit or Professional Gear models, for which no doubt the shops and/or partners in question take the commercial risk of getting the proportional demand in the target market for each nib width/type wrong and overstocking what doesn't sell well, but the asking prices are from-significantly-to-much higher than Sailor's own independent offerings in balance. I can't imagine Wancher, for example, commissioning another collab edition with only MF nibs on offer, when in spite of being a Japanese company it seems to target its marketing quite heavily at foreign customers.

 

3 hours ago, Olya said:

Is MF the cheapest to produce/most sold?

 

I'm sure it isn't cheaper to produce than a corresponding F or M nib, but MF nibs are probably the best-selling nib width in Japan (and Southeast Asian markets) among consumers who use them for everyday writing in Japanese — and by extension, Chinese hanzi — and/or Korean as well as in English, with the sort of grid and line spacing you typically see in Japanese brands of notebooks. Furthermore, in the absence of F and M nibs as options, most users who may prefer F or M could and settle for an MF nib.

 

Gold nibs:

A salaryman isn't going to pull out a pretty Professional Gear in the Shikiori Amaoto series to write with in the conference room or even generally in the office; or use a pastel-coloured (or glittery dark blue) Sailor Professional Gear Slim Mini as a signature pen; so the demand for Broad, Zoom and Music nibs for those models would be very niche.

 

Sailor already tested the waters by trimming down the nib options for the Shikiori Setsugetsu Soraha series, to MF and EF only, which I think was to check on which side Fine nib users would fall when pushed. The sales figures from that would've been key to steering whether the Shikiori ‘Fairy Tales’ series was released with more, fewer, or the same nib options.

 

Steel nibs:

The style of steel nibs used in the Lecoule and Profit Jr. lines have always been available in MF only, as far as I'm aware; F nibs on any variant would be a rare exception. Again, those product lines are marketed as affordable, cute ‘school pens’ for teenagers and young women, more than men or serious users after workhorse pens.

 

The steel nibs with the 1911 imprint, which are found on the Procolor and Young Profit line, are a slightly different matter. While the Procolor models were rarely offered with anything other than F (and sometimes MF – the transparent Toh-Mei-Kan comes to mind) nibs, the Young Profit was available with all seven ‘standard’ nib options; but the latter product has been discontinued. I'm sure if a collab partner wants to commission a shop-exclusive Procolor variant with EF and/or Zoom nibs, Sailor will happily take payment upfront and produce as many units of those nibs as ordered, and leave the commercial risk of unsold inventory to the other party.

 

3 hours ago, Olya said:

I find it baffling that some lines are sold with MF only, even though the same nib and feed is produced for other lines with more nib choices (eg Pro Gear Slim, PGS Mini, 1911 Standard all share the same nib & feed and yet some of these are MF only (eg Shikiori)).

 

Maximising the range of product options is not nearly as important to Japanese consumers as getting handed a unit that's factory-sealed when they buy a pen that is sold as brand new. (I just ordered three Sailor pens, including one Shikiori Setsugetsu Soraha Manyo with a EF nib,  in the past three weeks from eBay sellers in Japan, and all have arrived factory-sealed; not so when I order from retailers in Europe or North America.)

 

In the name of cost-cutting through rationalising product variety and reducing inventory, Sailor isn't going to make and keep factory-sealed units with Broad and Music nibs for authorised retailers to order once in a while when the niche end-customer asks for one.

[inkstainedruth]

On 3/8/2021 at 7:33 PM, A Smug Dill said:

I don't share your observation. The pared down nib options mainly apply to the dainty and/or pretty editions and colours that are not marketed overseas only — in other words, that are primarily targeted at the domestic market catering to its cultural and consumer sentiments, because the preferences and concerns of outsiders can never been deemed equal or important, if not split out as a special case — but mainly appeal to women and youngsters (or the young-at-heart) in Japan. None of the overseas-only, or (in some cases) North American exclusive, new releases — including the upcoming Blue Green Nebula — are limited to MF nibs only.

 

Agreed.  I've bought three Sailor Pens in the past couple of years, the Purple Cosmos Pro-Gear Slim (which was an LE color) and two of the North American Exclusive 1911S pens (Loch Ness Monster and Wicked Witch of the West).

All three of those had nearly the full range of nib widths except -- ironically -- the Pro-Gear Slim, which did NOT have MF as an option at Cult Pens at the time I was ordering; and that was late in the run for those (about the time that the next year's special color, the red one, was first being advertised).  The two 1911S pens I got from Anderson Pens a couple of months ago; the Wicked Witch pen I got with a music nib, just to try one [the same way I got a zoom nib on the Pro-Gear Slim]; yes, the Loch Ness Monster has a MF nib on it, but I'm finding I like it a lot.  And both of the 1911S pens have the special "ion plated nibs".  

I'll admit that so far those have been the only Sailor pens that have really caught my eye -- and I waffled a lot on the Purple Cosmos because it was so much more expensive than the "standard" Pro-Gear Slim colors ; didn't really notice whether the non-SE/LE colors came in the full range of nib widths or not, and most of the other lines haven't particularly interested me.

Now could be that the full range of nibs might not be available on the "normal" colors, or on other Sailor models -- I haven't really looked.  And of course haven't really investigated other vendors besides ones that I had relatively easy access to (and/or were known entities to me where I'd ordered from in the past).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Olya]

On 3/9/2021 at 1:33 AM, A Smug Dill said:

 

I don't share your observation. The pared down nib options mainly apply to the dainty and/or pretty editions and colours that are not marketed overseas only — in other words, that are primarily targeted at the domestic market catering to its cultural and consumer sentiments, because the preferences and concerns of outsiders can never been deemed equal or important, if not split out as a special case — but mainly appeal to women and youngsters (or the young-at-heart) in Japan. None of the overseas-only, or (in some cases) North American exclusive, new releases — including the upcoming Blue Green Nebula — are limited to MF nibs only.

 

It also doesn't seem to apply to shop-exclusive and/or ‘collab’ editions of the gold-nibbed Profit or Professional Gear models, for which no doubt the shops and/or partners in question take the commercial risk of getting the proportional demand in the target market for each nib width/type wrong and overstocking what doesn't sell well, but the asking prices are from-significantly-to-much higher than Sailor's own independent offerings in balance. I can't imagine Wancher, for example, commissioning another collab edition with only MF nibs on offer, when in spite of being a Japanese company it seems to target its marketing quite heavily at foreign customers.

 

 

I'm sure it isn't cheaper to produce than a corresponding F or M nib, but MF nibs are probably the best-selling nib width in Japan (and Southeast Asian markets) among consumers who use them for everyday writing in Japanese — and by extension, Chinese hanzi — and/or Korean as well as in English, with the sort of grid and line spacing you typically see in Japanese brands of notebooks. Furthermore, in the absence of F and M nibs as options, most users who may prefer F or M could and settle for an MF nib.

 

Gold nibs:

A salaryman isn't going to pull out a pretty Professional Gear in the Shikiori Amaoto series to write with in the conference room or even generally in the office; or use a pastel-coloured (or glittery dark blue) Sailor Professional Gear Slim Mini as a signature pen; so the demand for Broad, Zoom and Music nibs for those models would be very niche.

 

Sailor already tested the waters by trimming down the nib options for the Shikiori Setsugetsu Soraha series, to MF and EF only, which I think was to check on which side Fine nib users would fall when pushed. The sales figures from that would've been key to steering whether the Shikiori ‘Fairy Tales’ series was released with more, fewer, or the same nib options.

 

Steel nibs:

The style of steel nibs used in the Lecoule and Profit Jr. lines have always been available in MF only, as far as I'm aware; F nibs on any variant would be a rare exception. Again, those product lines are marketed as affordable, cute ‘school pens’ for teenagers and young women, more than men or serious users after workhorse pens.

 

The steel nibs with the 1911 imprint, which are found on the Procolor and Young Profit line, are a slightly different matter. While the Procolor models were rarely offered with anything other than F (and sometimes MF – the transparent Toh-Mei-Kan comes to mind) nibs, the Young Profit was available with all seven ‘standard’ nib options; but the latter product has been discontinued. I'm sure if a collab partner wants to commission a shop-exclusive Procolor variant with EF and/or Zoom nibs, Sailor will happily take payment upfront and produce as many units of those nibs as ordered, and leave the commercial risk of unsold inventory to the other party.

 

 

Maximising the range of product options is not nearly as important to Japanese consumers as getting handed a unit that's factory-sealed when they buy a pen that is sold as brand new. (I just ordered three Sailor pens, including one Shikiori Setsugetsu Soraha Manyo with a EF nib,  in the past three weeks from eBay sellers in Japan, and all have arrived factory-sealed; not so when I order from retailers in Europe or North America.)

 

In the name of cost-cutting through rationalising product variety and reducing inventory, Sailor isn't going to make and keep factory-sealed units with Broad and Music nibs for authorised retailers to order once in a while when the niche end-customer asks for one.

Thank you for the detailed response, you have said some things I have thought as well.

 

My bafflement over the limit on MF comes mainly due to the new PGS Shikiori line (granted, the old line was MF only as well, but those were only 4 pens, now they've scrapped a good number of PGS, 1911S and the whole Promenade line, added PGS Shikiori models, but not expanded nib choice), which is available worldwide, as well as the cheaper steel nibbed Shikiori line, because they scrapped the Young Profit which offered all nib sizes on a steel nib, the Shikiori Steel line shares the YP nib & feed, but is only available in F, so anyone who wantes to try any nib size aside from F or MF has to go for the gold nib, but even the gold nib offer isn't what it used to be....

 

I don't really count SE/LE offers, those are usually done on commission anyway and isn't most of the time up to Sailor, plus the North American market is a limited scope.

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, Olya said:

My bafflement over the limit on MF comes mainly due to the new PGS Shikiori line (granted, the old line was MF only as well,

 

Do you mean the Shikiori Setsugetsu Soraha series? Those models didn't invariably come factory-fitted with MF nibs.

 

 

I have the Manyō with an EF nib (model 11-1224-102), which I ordered from an eBay seller in Japan only last month. As I mentioned before, I think Sailor was testing the waters by only offering the EF and MF nibs on models in that range, and the sales figures must have suggested to the company that it could get away with offering the MF nib only for future gold-nibbed Shikiori series.

 

[Mr.Rene]

The topic hire is Sailor Possibly Being Bought Out...

and now we are talking about Sailor pens line and material...Extreme mental dispersion AMAZING!!

[Olya]

1 hour ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Do you mean the Shikiori Setsugetsu Soraha series? Those models didn't invariably come factory-fitted with MF nibs.

 

 

I have the Manyō with an EF nib (model 11-1224-102), which I ordered from an eBay seller in Japan only last month. As I mentioned before, I think Sailor was testing the waters by only offering the EF and MF nibs on models in that range, and the sales figures must have suggested to the company that it could get away with offering the MF nib only for future gold-nibbed Shikiori series.

 

Oh wow I only ever saw those offered as MF!!

Though MF is a good nib size I get along well with, seems just a shame the way it's become (I esp. begrudge the loss of the full steel line up which could've been offered in the Shikiori ProColor line...)

 

1 hour ago, Mr.Rene said:

The topic hire is Sailor Possibly Being Bought Out...

and now we are talking about Sailor pens line and material...Extreme mental dispersion AMAZING!!

Yes, but the changes have been brought on with the buy out 😁

And it seemed like too-short a topic to create an extra thread for!

[Tinjapan]

On 6/29/2020 at 7:08 AM, essayfaire said:

They have lots of company in hiding behind size changes rather than raising price per unit - look at ice cream not-quite-pint sizes and ceral boxes. That always irks me, as it implies companies think their customers are too unintelligent to notice the implicit price increase.

That is called “shrinkflation” and has been going here in Japan across the economy for a number of years now.

[bluebellrose]

On 10/24/2020 at 1:35 AM, RJS said:

I agree with what you say- Sailor are pretty invisible in China. I don't recall seeing their pens or inks in a physical shop, whilst Pilot and Lamy (for example) are everywhere.

Don't forget they fired retailers in the past. Goulet only recently got them back. Trying to be exclusive and firing retailers really hurt their bottom line.  Their fault really.

Lately I heard from my local b and m that Sailor reached out to them so I dunno if I heard wrong. They hadnt ever had Sailor before. And now they are selling it. Previously my area had only 1 official dealer selling sailor. Now it looks like they finally realized the error of trying to be exclusive and are now aiming to be everywhere. I'm now seeing them everywhere Lamy and Platinum are.

[RJS]

9 hours ago, bluebellrose said:

Don't forget they fired retailers in the past. Goulet only recently got them back. Trying to be exclusive and firing retailers really hurt their bottom line.  Their fault really.

Lately I heard from my local b and m that Sailor reached out to them so I dunno if I heard wrong. They hadnt ever had Sailor before. And now they are selling it. Previously my area had only 1 official dealer selling sailor. Now it looks like they finally realized the error of trying to be exclusive and are now aiming to be everywhere. I'm now seeing them everywhere Lamy and Platinum are.

I wonder why they disassociated themselves with certain retailers? Were they upset that companies were importing their pens and inks through secondary channels and undercutting the abhorrent Westerner tax that Sailor and Pilot (and weirdly, Lamy) all have? Such practices also allowed their full range to reach western countries, while they sometimes only want to release certain things outside of Asia.

[bluebellrose]

I dunno. Sailor seems to reaching out directly instead of via their distributor.

 

Although Platinum literally changed distributors overnight to Lamy's operators behind the scene overnight in Canada because LuxuryBrands didn't have them at the supposedly official authorized retailer. Now they are everywhere where Lamy is.

 

Sailor is trying to change and that's a good thing. They also seemed to have gotten one of my b and m to stock stainer inks now. They didnt before. Sell the stainer ink, upsell a bottle of doyou.  Now I can get Platinum carbon black or the Sailor equivalent easily

[kimpossible]

1 hour ago, bluebellrose said:

I dunno. Sailor seems to reaching out directly instead of via their distributor.

 

Although Platinum literally changed distributors overnight to Lamy's operators behind the scene overnight in Canada because LuxuryBrands didn't have them at the supposedly official authorized retailer. Now they are everywhere where Lamy is.

 

Sailor is trying to change and that's a good thing. They also seemed to have gotten one of my b and m to stock stainer inks now. They didnt before. Sell the stainer ink, upsell a bottle of doyou.  Now I can get Platinum carbon black or the Sailor equivalent easily

    I think the biggest limitation that Sailor has is its lack of volumeseller products. I'm sure they sell enough fountainpens to barely keep the company going but they aren't yielding  a significant amount of profit to grow into a bigger business(Maybe that just isn't their goal. I don't know). On the other hand, one of their key competitors, Pilot, has a big name in the stationary industry. One doesn't have to be a fountain pen user to know of the existence of Pilot. They make all kind of stuff ranging from rollerballs, ballpoints, and art pens, including the renown G2. I think Pilot makes majority of its profits from its common stationary lineups and invest that revenue to fund their fountain pen division(I might be just making things up here haha). So my point is, Sailor lacks that "common lineup" for normal people outside of the fountain pen world. 

    In many ways, I think the stationary market is very similar to that of the auto industry( I won't ramble about why I think so here...). If anyone here is a car enthusiast, Sailor is more like Mazda, making a small batch of vehicles for a relatively small market(Coincidentally they're both from the city of Hiroshima). Pilot, on the other hand, is more like Toyota, or any of the Japanese auto big three(Toyota, Honda, and Nissan) who has more capital and presence out of that niche market.