Inks That Eat Sacs

[Honeybadgers]

You forgot --

Quantum

Existing above absolute Zero

and cats. Cats are responsible for most things.

 

If you flick that lever and your pen meows, throw the pen away.

[inkstainedruth]

You forgot --

Quantum

Existing above absolute Zero

and cats. Cats are responsible for most things.

 

But of course they'll deny everything. And then trip you on the way to the kitchen. And then again on the way out of the kitchen if you have a piece of chicken....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainefruth

[Vintagepens]

"Barrier layer"?
Our silicone sacs are just silicone, injection molded. There's no "barrier layer".

 

David Nishumura sells silicone sacs, but they have a gas permeability issue... You have to store the pen with the nib UP. Too bad he didn't have them made with the barrier layer on the outside.

[Vintagepens]

"Pli-glass" was Parker's fancy name for PVC, or vinyl. Entirely different material from acrylic (Plexiglass).
Agreed about the hazards of storing pens filled with water. Leaks, excessive humidity in the storage area, mold -- all are legitimate worries.

 

And those Ply-glass sacs are really sturdy (given that they're effectively a form of plexiglass) -- pretty much to a man my 51 Aeros just needed a good flushing out when I got them.

I can't say about latex or rubber sacs. I don't store the pens with water in them for the same reason I don't store the out-of rotation 51s with water in them (evaporation/leaks).

Also I worry about stuff growing in them, even though I'm flushing with distilled water, not tap water.

[Uncial]

I have two cats.

One does not care about pens.

The other one is clearly irritated by pens and flicks them off surfaces and then looks at me right after she's done it. I suspect that during the night she takes the sac pens apart and puts tiny little claw holes in them just for fun.

[Ron Z]

"Barrier layer"?

Our silicone sacs are just silicone, injection molded. There's no "barrier layer".

 

 

Come on David. We've talked about this, and the possible methods to avoid the gas permeability issue.

[Intensity]

Seems like the olden days had good nibs and feeds, yes, but the ease of disassembly and cleaning is dramatically improved with modern pens. I've just looked up sac replacement procedure for my Wahl Skylines, and it's a bit of a nightmare to do myself, if I ever end up needing to replace their sacs. Why couldn't have they simply been threaded for easy servicing... Normally I associate decades past with higher quality workmanship out of neatly fitting parts that can be disassembled, rather than glued (shellacked) together like some modern electronics).

Edited June 18, 2018 by Intensity

[Vintagepens]

You wrote, "Too bad he didn't have them made with the barrier layer on the outside."

That implies that there is a barrier layer, but on the inside. Perhaps you intended to write, "Too bad he didn't have them made with a barrier layer on the outside". That's another matter entirely.

In fact, adding an outer layer or coating is not trivial. It's not easy to get anything to stick to silicone other than silicone. And if that layer is anything other than silicone, it will surely not age in so benign a fashion as silicone -- though it may still prove less reactive than aging latex or PVC.

 

 

Come on David. We've talked about this, and the possible methods to avoid the gas permeability issue.

[Ron Z]

You wrote, "Too bad he didn't have them made with the barrier layer on the outside."

That implies that there is a barrier layer, but on the inside. Perhaps you intended to write, "Too bad he didn't have them made with a barrier layer on the outside". That's another matter entirely.

In fact, adding an outer layer or coating is not trivial. It's not easy to get anything to stick to silicone other than silicone. And if that layer is anything other than silicone, it will surely not age in so benign a fashion as silicone -- though it may still prove less reactive than aging latex or PVC.

 

 

 

I will grant the difference in wording. I also grant that a barrier layer wherever it may be, may make the cost of the sacs prohibitive.

 

As it stands now each of the options comes with its own problems. I have used the silicone sacs, but had to stop on clients pens because I can not tell them, dictate to them if you will, how they must store their pens. But the problem of the interaction of inks and sacs in vintage may I am afraid, have an impact on the collecting and or use of vintage pens because people want to use the ink of their choice, so they avoid vintage pens with sacs. There are other reasons why I don't use the "boutique" inks, but that's another whole discussion.

[ErrantSmudge]

But the problem of the interaction of inks and sacs in vintage may I am afraid, have an impact on the collecting and or use of vintage pens because people want to use the ink of their choice, so they avoid vintage pens with sacs.

 

That's me. I avoid using "boutique" inks in my vintage pens, but I like using boutique inks. That, along with the fussiness of sac pens in general (difficult to fill fully, very hard to clean) means I'm less likely to buy vintage in the future.

Edited June 18, 2018 by ErrantSmudge

[Intensity]

I wish the term "boutique inks" would be changed to something more appropriate and less derogatory. Montblanc inks are the definition of boutique inks nowadays, but they are supposed to be fairly safe for vintage pens. Sailor and Pilot are major ink AND pen manufacturers but have some high concentration inks, and some even with shimmer. Is J Herbin a "boutique" brand? It's an unnecessarily confusing misnomer.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Intensity

[Ron Z]

Sorry, I think it fits and is not at all confusing. I use it to describe inks that are made by a small manufacturer who is not a pen manufacturer. I suspect (or would hope!) that MB is a bit more rigorous in their testing, at least with their own pens, than the small ink manufacturers here in the USA can be.

 

I understand people wanting to use the wide range of colors, and respect the fact that many people are drawn to fountain pens because they can choose any color they want, not just the few colors available from said pen manufacturers. But never the less I choose not use the inks in my pens, vintage or modern, because I do not trust them.

[white_lotus]

Sorry but the issue is not about a couple of ink makers in the US anymore. It's a global phenomena of ink manufacturers making more saturated inks to meet the demand of the vast majority of fountain pen users, who do not have pens with sacs but with cartridge-converters that can easily handle these saturated inks.

 

Sacs of all kinds are a relic of a bygone era. They've gone the way of the dodo. The only reason I have sac pens that I use are my modern Edison Beaumont pneumatics. But I'll continue to use inks that I really like in my other pens including Gate City, Edison Draw Fillers, Pelikan, and a number of CC pens.

 

Montblanc makes good inks, Aurora makes good inks. So I'll use those in my Beaumont pneumatics. I can live with that. But thousands upon thousands of FP users are using so-called "boutique" or "bespoke" inks in their regular CC pens without issue every day. To tell people to avoid them is just bad advice, imo.

[Ron Z]

Sacs of all kinds are a relic of a bygone era. They've gone the way of the dodo.

 

Really? Then explain the steady flow of pens through my shop and others to be restored with new sacs, and the fact that every well qualified pen restorer has a weeks long backlog. Up to 6 months is not uncommon. I can name many modern pens, including Conway Stewart, Delta and others that have a sac in them.

 

But its not just sac pens.

 

Shall I post a picture of the vintage Pelikan damaged by Noodlers? The seller told me that is what went into the pen. I don't know if it was BSB or not. The inside of the barrel crazed. I thought I might be able to polish it out, but the damage is too deep. <shrug> I got some good parts out of it. I've also seen the damage to modern Pelikans that Richard mentions in his article about ink. Not the same pen he talks about BTW. I've seen Noodlers pens melted by BSB.

 

 

 

To tell people to avoid them is just bad advice, imo.

 

We have to disagree there. Don't take just my word for it. Read Richard Binder's article on inks.

 

Look, I've always said that if you want to use one of the inks in question in a modern pen that's made with acrylic or is a C/C pen, go ahead. But not in celluloid pens like Pelikans or Vacumatics or Sheaffer Plunger fillers where the ink is held directly in the barrel.

 

If you can restore/repair your own pens, go ahead and use the inks in a sac pen. It is only a couple of bucks and maybe half an hour cleaning out the goo. But there are an awful lot of people for whom that is impossible. They haven't the mechanical ability. I'm not criticizing - we all have different strengths. I hate trying to balance a check book. Fortunately my wife does it quite well!

[Fuzzy_Bear]

Yes. Read Richards site. Then do more investigating. Lamy admitted to having a bad batch of feeds that did not play well. Have heard of only problems of melting, damaged parts on his site, no others. The Pelikan he shows, from another repairer, the owner admits to mixing inks.

 

He says PR are known for mold. So was J.Herbin, the oldest ink maker.

 

KWZ iron galls are known to damage some TWSBI Eco's. KWZ spent a lot of time verifying this.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Fuzzy_Bear

[JakobS]

Yes. Read Richards site. Then do more investigating. Lamy admitted to having a bad batch of feeds that did not play well. Have heard of only problems of melting, damaged parts on his site, no others. The Pelikan he shows, from another repairer, the owner admits to mixing inks.

 

He says PR are known for mold. So was J.Herbin, the oldest ink maker.

 

KWZ iron galls are known to damage some TWSBI Eco's. KWZ spent a lot of time verifying this.

It wasnt KWZ iron gall specifically, but a component in a variety of their inks, that was removed just before a lot of the scratching of the ECO barrels was discovered. Its not an issue for any of their inks made since late 2016 If I remember correctly. It was due to this chemical reacting to the coating TWSBI used to reduce the scratching of the barrel from the piston.

 

As far as their iron gall or many standard inks in sac pens, I have yet to see any sac deterioration over two years, and a few pens have a steady diet of them, especially with their iron gall inks.

Edited June 19, 2018 by JakobS

[Ron Z]

Have heard of only problems of melting, damaged parts on his site, no others. The Pelikan he shows, from another repairer, the owner admits to mixing inks.

 

I don't have time to write a lot on my blog, but I've both heard about it, and have seen it, including a Pelikan barrel damaged by saturated ink. I don't think I have it around anymore, but I had a red 800 barrel come through that had damage similar to what Richard shows, and was heavily scored inside. Its rather obvious when the dye saturated inks have been used.

 

Look, we're trying to save people and their pens from trouble, and my emphasis has been on pens with latex sacs. I really have nothing to gain by this. I don't sell ink, and fewer damaged pens means less work for pen mechanics. By all means, use whatever ink you want, they are after all your pens. But please, consider the number of pens that we see and repair before you blow off our observations.

[white_lotus]

Well Conway Stewart USED TO have a couple models of their pens that were level fillers. If you check some of the websites, you find that the Marlbourgh Vintage is not longer available with a lever filler. And ALL the other models of which there are quite a few are cartridge-converter. Conklin used to make a few vintage lever-filler style, but few shops seem to have them. The latest catalogs from FPH list no lever-filler or sac-based pens and Fahrney's only lists the Conklin Crescent-fillers. All the other pens are CC, piston fillers, or syringe-filler styles.

 

Yes pens with sacs are going the way of the dodo. I'm sure there will be plenty of vintage sac-filling pens for Mr. Zorn to repair.

 

Again we get a couple data points of certain unnamed inks messing up a vintage pen. A pen that no one knows what real condition it was in, how old it was (from the 70s or the 30s?), how it was stored or cared for. And that's the problem with any vintage pen.

 

But the thousands upon thousands of perfectly happy modern fountain pens users who'll never need to send their CC pen for service, that's not data that Mr. Zorn has. Even on this site, there's never a peep about such-and-such ink (or brand) damaged/destroyed my pen. And I'm sure there would be if it happened with any regularity. Only the couple individual data points, poorly documented, from some time ago, that just get older and older with time, and less relevant.

[KKay]

Can the problem also possibly be the fact you think the pen is flushed out good, but there is residue left and it reacts to another ink? I don't switch inks as often in my Boston Safety pens. I had a reaction between two inks that were orange. I'm not pulling the nib and feed every time to clean the pen. I never had a problem with a sac before, but almost all of my pens are cc or piston fillers.

[Uncial]

There is an element of change too. As in, inks change and are changed by makers. Sometimes an ink slips through the net that seems fine but suddenly a little trickle of reports starts to come in that indicates there is a problem. The makers take the ink off the market, reformulate it and re-release it under the same name. Herbin is a good example of this. They used a batch of either faulty or inadequate mold inhibitors and the inks were tarnished. They took them off the market and corrected it. For a little while there were a few springing up here and there that had been missed, but overall they seemed to have covered most of the bases.

 

At one time I thought it might be a good idea to put up a list of 'naughty' inks with good descriptions of the issues, but such a venture would be fraught with issues when manufacturers of inks take an ink off the market and re-release it later having corrected the problem. So it is possible that some inks might cause damage to pens (or probably more accurately; issues for pens), but to try and name them and have it in print ever after isn't practical, nor is it fair to the manufacturer and of course, most importantly of all, it may become untruthful. You also cannot account for stupidity. If someone cannot read a label on a box and a bottle that clearly says the ink will in all likelihood stain demonstrators (I'm sure you all know which ink I'm talking about) and proceeds to put it in a demonstrator and whinges about it staining I find it rather difficult to muster sympathy.

 

In respect of melting sacs, even the casual observer will note that the variables are huge. I've had my own very weird experiences with melting sacs, sacs ossifying and crumbling and cracking which I've mentioned on threads like this many times, not because I want to cause confusion or serve up controversy, but rather to bring balance to the rather linear view that one particular ink causes a specific problem. I cannot be the only person who has had significant and alarming deterioration of sacs that have never seen ink. Or maybe I am! But I'm not trying to deliberately go out of my way to contradict someone like Ron Z's experience but rather widen the lens of which we all view it from. I look at it in the narrow frame of my usage and experience here at home and Ron sees it through the equally narrow lens of his experience in respect of repair. For me to say a certain ink is not a problem with sacs might be true for me a million others, but four or five people a year saying to Ron that they are certain a specific ink caused a problem that requires repair may be true, but isn't a full picture (or the other way around). Ron's lens means he only hears the voices of complaint and not the silent people perfectly happy and going about their writing and in the same way, we go about our writing and probably only hear voices of agreement and wonder what on earth people are putting in their pens when they have an issue. The internet, forums, blogs and threads are problematic too. The Lamy feed issue (along with the now infamous pictures) comes up again, and again, and again; and no matter how many times people are told that it was a Lamy issue and Lamy actually admitted it and corrected it, still people will swear blind that one particular ink maker caused the entire problem. I can also see that one ink out of collection of say thirty might be suspect, but suggesting a blanket avoidance of all the inks seems somewhat extreme and an impractical solution. That doesn't strike me as a professional approach but I can understand the method to a degree.

 

There is only one truly problematic ink in modern times that I can think of that was withdrawn from the market, not once, but twice. That ink was Organic Studios Aristotle. It was an iron gal ink that in its original formulation had very notable and easily observable corrosive qualities. They seem to have fixed it on the third iteration, but I must confess I only use it in cheapies, but its such a beautiful ink that I still bought it and took the risk. There have been others that have been a bit cloggy, dry up on the nib far too quickly, whose elements split in the bottle and never quite go back together properly, but they don't damage pens, they are just slightly crappy inks; most of which tend to disappear from the market pretty quickly.

 

An old pen repairer I know here (who sadly is now too old to take on repairs) poo-hoo's the idea that modern inks destroy sacs. I have absolutely no idea if it is true or not, but he has (more than once) made the claim that old vintage inks used in old vintage pens were far more acidic and alkaline than anything we use in pens today. I've never asked him which inks exactly he is referring to, but I can tell you that the Inksters here on FPN have used old powdered inks in samples and Poole's (and I think also one of Sterling's) powdered inks leave very interesting , almost flame-like corrosive markings on steel nibs and on gold. Under a loupe there seems to be nothing at all to worry about, but there is very definitely some kind of odd reaction going on.