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Inks That Eat Sacs


saskia_madding

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Super anecdotal and unscientific but I used a bunch of Iroshizuku Asagao over the last year or two, Not only that, and not exclusively that but that is one ink I know I used a bunch.

 

Over the last year, I had a spate of Snorkels and TD pens stop filling. I put them all in a box (5 pens this time out) and sent them to my restorer. I just got an angry email about the gooey insides of my pens and a bunch of pen/crime scene photos of sacs all turned to goo and the incredible mess the insides of my pens had become. User grade but much-beloved pens. Some of the springs had rusted and the innards were generally a mess.

 

I am a long time user of snorkels and TDs. I have more of those than any other pens and I always have few inked. I have had pen get old and tear the sac or had the point seals harden but not had any turn to goo like this. I can't say for sure it was the Iroshizuku but that was the new variable. Ironically I don't love Iroshizuku inks and typically use more plain Pilot than Iroshizuku but I did fall in love with Asagao and started putting it in a lot of pens.

 

I will continue to use it in my C/C Japanese pens and maybe even in my P51s. But for now, my lever and pneumatic sac pens are on a strict non-Iroshizuku diet.

 

The one curious thing is that one pen that did not get Asagao also turned to goo (only Aurora Black or maybe an occasional fill of Visconti Blue). So, who the heck knows?

 

I am the opposite of Amber. I care less about the ink than the pen. & while some sac failures are a meh that just need clean up, snorkels have all kinds of issues including clogging the feed in the tube and the rusting of the spring.

 

</Super anecdotal and unscientific>

Looking for a cap for a Sheaffer Touchdown Sentinel Deluxe Fat version

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Many have stated that they've used any number of different inks, from "safe" inks to "super sat" inks. Everyone has reported a goo sack.

 

So here is the one variable that is constant from everyone. The latex sack. I have a feeling that there was a very large, bad batch of latex sacks and I bet so poor storage conditions during shipping and storage.

 

I am about to resac my Estie and will run nothing but Noodler's Texas Bluebonnet.

Peace and Understanding

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OK. I have removed the sac from the black Estie and have most of the sac from the root beer Estie. They were partially soft and partially crystallized. I will post pics as soon as I can.

 

The black one was finished this evening, so it will get inked Monday evening. This use the last sac I have and it is from the same order the previous sacs came from. No, I don't know where I ordered them.

Edited by Fuzzy_Bear

Peace and Understanding

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I have 5 freshly resac'd snorkels coming to me from a name restorer who does careful work. I am going to try to stick to a single ink in each one and try to keep all five in rotation, for a full year with a clean out (only water) every three fillings. For snorts and giggles.

Looking for a cap for a Sheaffer Touchdown Sentinel Deluxe Fat version

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It's loaded. 2556 nib and she writes like a dream! Let's see when the sac has problems, if ever.

Peace and Understanding

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I am going to try to stick to a single ink in each one and try to keep all five in rotation, for a full year with a clean out (only water) every three fillings.

 

Better make it distilled water - as all five of your sacs went to goo despite the ink used, perhaps your local water is the culprit?

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  • 9 months later...

I found this thread after I bought a sample bottle of Monteverde's Sapphire Blue (from their Gemstone series). It's a gorgeous, intense hue but today I discovered that this ink appears to have a low ph. I've already inked one of my recently acquired Esterbrooks with this blue. Was that a bad idea? Are Monteverde inks potentially harmful for vintage pens with latex sacs?

Moderation in everything, including moderation.

--Mark Twain

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I found this thread after I bought a sample bottle of Monteverde's Sapphire Blue (from their Gemstone series). It's a gorgeous, intense hue but today I discovered that this ink appears to have a low ph. I've already inked one of my recently acquired Esterbrooks with this blue. Was that a bad idea? Are Monteverde inks potentially harmful for vintage pens with latex sacs?

The consensus so far seems to be that it's not about pH, but colour: the more red in an ink, the quicker a sac will fail (i.e. reds, oranges, browns, purples etc).

I think that most "sapphire" hued inks are safe for sacs, in spite of most "sapphire" inks being on the blurple side.

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The consensus so far seems to be that it's not about pH, but colour: the more red in an ink, the quicker a sac will fail (i.e. reds, oranges, browns, purples etc).

I think that most "sapphire" hued inks are safe for sacs, in spite of most "sapphire" inks being on the blurple side.

 

Isn't pH correlated with color?

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Isn't pH correlated with color?

I've never been good at chemistry, so I can't say with certainity. But I don't think so.

There's an article on pH correlation with light intensity, but in flowers ( http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/27/7/817.full.pdf ). I don't think this can apply to ink.

When looking at reported pH in inks and their colours, the chart is all over the place and there doesn't seem to be a reliable statement of "x colour or intensity is definitely x pH".

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The colour a dye displays can be affected by the pH of the solution it is in. I don't think there is any particular relationship between pH and the direction of colour shift, though.

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“Them as can do has to do for them as can’t.


And someone has to speak up for them as has no voices.”


Granny Aching

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In the last year I've bought sacs from four sources and had very odd experiences.

I bought five sacs from China which sat in a box and within four months the sealed top ends went all gooey and horrible. They smelt funny too and were quite thin. They ended up in the bin.

I bought a pack of twelve different sized sacs from India, quite a decent thickness but they were tacky and sort of sticky from the get go. If you squeezed a sac between your thumb and finger it would stick within the interior of the sac and slowly peel apart. This didn't instil confidence in me so I've never used them in a pen. I still have them and they are still tacky but haven't melted or gone gooey.

I bought a couple of sacs from the States and had the intention of using them. They came in a sealed plastic baggy like those freezer bags. I never got around to it, but examining them showed something a little odd. If I bent the sac over my finger it would expose a crazed amount of surface cracking. Still have them and they now have a sort of rough texture on the outside as if the are fossilising (ossifying?). I strongly suspect they will end up in the bin.

The fifteen sacs bought from the UK have been good. I've used them in pens and have had no issues whatsoever. I use a lot of red and orange and deeply saturated inks, which may or may not be an issue in relation to rubber, but haven't actually had a gooey or melting sac from such inks. I have had sacs melt with Waterman - which I think I posted about on this thread regarding Parker vac units - that led me down the path of wondering if it was the ink or the sac. My experience is entirely unscientific and lacking in all manner of controls so may be taken with a pinch of salt, but sacs that turn gooey or melt without any contact with ink whatsoever would strongly point in the direction of an issue with sacs.

A a further, entirely unscientific anecdote, I have had an Esterbrook J which according to my ink log over the last two years has had Diamine Red Dragon (x2), Majestic Blue (x1), Oxblood (x4), Sailor Oku Yama (x1), Bungbox Tears of a Clown (x2), Noodler's Bloody Mary (x3), Red-Black (x2) and Diamine Blaze Orange (x1) in it and the sac is still as good as new. (It will probably turn to mush this afternoon now that I've said that!).

Ultimately, sacs are cheap and easily got and easily changed; so why worry?

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Very interesting thoughts on both inks and sacs. I think I'd better learn how to install sacs in Esterbrooks! The many inks available today make it very difficult to limit oneself to just a few. Uncial, I like your idea of keeping a journal.

 

Thanks, all, for these many ideas and speculations... and this long-running thread!

Moderation in everything, including moderation.

--Mark Twain

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Madeline, It's not really a journal, just a list essentially. I write down the pen, nib size, ink and date. It's most useful for the EF nibs and helps me remember which inks (especially if quite dry) won't play nice in such nibs. Over the years it's been a useful tool in deciding which pens and nibs produce more dramatic shading for particular inks. Sometimes a very fine nib can make an ink appear boring too. For instance, I discovered recently that the Omas F nib doesn't bring out the best in Pure Pens latest 'Celtic Sea' offering.

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All of this reaffirms what I've said about Richard Binder's accusing one particular ink company of destroying sacs and that several of his "safe" ink companies he recommends appear to suffer the same malady. Regardless, it's all anecdotal until a controlled test is done.

 

The next time I am at our local pen club, I'm going to have to ask the fellow who represents several European pen companies which suppliers make junk sacs. He told me once, but I wasn't in a place to write it down.

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All of this reaffirms what I've said about Richard Binder's accusing one particular ink company of destroying sacs and that several of his "safe" ink companies he recommends appear to suffer the same malady. Regardless, it's all anecdotal until a controlled test is done.

 

The next time I am at our local pen club, I'm going to have to ask the fellow who represents several European pen companies which suppliers make junk sacs. He told me once, but I wasn't in a place to write it down.

Here here! Not being able to do controlled tests, I come to the same conclusion. Would love to know what you find out.

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+ FLZapped... We await your report! (I once had some wonderful tires for my Honda Civic--tires which held the road very well but developed flats on a very regular basis. Not all tires or sacs are created equal, are they? ;-)

 

I think it would also be interesting to fill a series of ink sacs (from the same shipment) with various inks, set them up vertically in glass tubes, and observe the results over time. It does seem reasonable to hypothesize that inks with unusual ph values might have more effect upon sacs than more neutral inks.

 

And perhaps (or probably?) not all batches of a specific ink brand/color have exactly the same ph either, given the manufacturing process. How easy is it to test the ph of a bottle of ink? Probably not easy (given ink's color), or at least not in any inexpensive way...?

Moderation in everything, including moderation.

--Mark Twain

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I think someone on here attempted that with no conclusive results. If it can be a result of mixing inks to create some manner of reaction that affects the sac then the variables become endless.

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All of this reaffirms what I've said about Richard Binder's accusing one particular ink company of destroying sacs and that several of his "safe" ink companies he recommends appear to suffer the same malady. Regardless, it's all anecdotal until a controlled test is done.

 

The next time I am at our local pen club, I'm going to have to ask the fellow who represents several European pen companies which suppliers make junk sacs. He told me once, but I wasn't in a place to write it down.

 

Though not published yet, some controlled tests have been done. There appears to be a direct correlation between the saturation of the ink and failure of latex sacs. Diluting the ink by 20% reduces, but does not eliminate the negative effects.

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