Inks That Eat Sacs

[Fuzzy_Bear]

Hmmmmm. I've two Esterbrook J's and an old Shaeffer. All my sacs were bought at the same time, several years ago. I've used Aurora, Private Reserve and Noodler's in EVERY pen I own.

 

These are the only three with sacs. All sacs deteriorated. The Shaffer I left ink in, admittedly. The two J's I'm not sure, but I probably did.

 

The sacs were a gooey mess and I am slowly picking them clean with dental picks. Exposed to air, the sacs hardened.

 

I will continue to use all my inks in all my pens, save Baystate Blue. I have a couple of Shaeffer school pens for that ink.

 

Everyone has an opinion on this topic. I truly think that all of the companies that produce ink, whether they have been in business for a couple of hundred years or just a few years, do not produce ink that would harm a pen. I do believe there can be instances where any one ink could damage any one pen, that's just the ghost in the machine and you can not account for every situation in every pen in every ink. The people that design computers and your GPS systems take this into account as best they can, but sometimes it just happens.

 

Are my three sacs the result of the ink or being left inked or those particular sacs or my particular climate in my house or having say around before they were used our the microscopic particles or or or.

 

I doubt I can change the most hardened believer that it is the ink and only the ink from only certain manufacturers that is causing some sacs to fail. But there are too many variables that can not be taken into account.

[Erik Dalton]

Ac12, Thanks for the tip. I wouldn't want to do anything to harm that pen. I have others that get everyday handling, but this is the only P 51 that I was the first to ink. It's real special to me.

[zwack]

I read a LOT of threads and posts on ink and sacs including one where someone spent over a year subjecting sac parts to all sorts of factors. He had one failure, and couldn't replicate that even knowing exactly what he had done to that piece. There are too many factors to be certain, was the latex in the sac thoroughly mixed, was the ink an issue, was some other factor involved...

 

My advice would be to use the inks that you like, practice good pen hygiene, and be prepared to replace the odd sac occasionally.

[justaninker]

just curious, do silicone sacs exist? I imagine silicone would be more durable than natural rubber...

[JonSzanto]

just curious, do silicone sacs exist? I imagine silicone would be more durable than natural rubber...

 

Yes. There are other issues with those, including them being more permeable as well as (I believe) just a bit trickier to install. The main reason people use silicone sacs is to prevent the discoloration of the celluloid barrels and caps in vintage pens, which is often caused by the off-gassing from latex sacs. David Nishimura may have been one of the first to come up with the silicone sacs, and I know they can be ordered from him.

[justaninker]

 

Yes. There are other issues with those, including them being more permeable as well as (I believe) just a bit trickier to install. The main reason people use silicone sacs is to prevent the discoloration of the celluloid barrels and caps in vintage pens, which is often caused by the off-gassing from latex sacs. David Nishimura may have been one of the first to come up with the silicone sacs, and I know they can be ordered from him.

Very interesting, thanks. I thought silicone would be less permeable as it's used as bathroom sealants.

[zwack]

A good pair of posts on ink sac materials are this one

http://mainstreetpens.com/wordpress/?p=55 and this one http://www.vintagepens.com/FAQrepair/pen_sacs.shtml

 

They cover the different materials and various issues with them. Quick summary...

 

Latex is the traditional material but will age (harden) and is not inert (can turn to goo)

 

Silicone is more likely to tear and is more gas permeable (ink drying out or oozing out of the nib) but is pretty much inert.

 

PVC is capable of damaging celluloid and plastic and will stain, but can be a good choice.

[iveyman]

I am a little suspicious of my Caran d'Ache Saffron ink has done some damage to the ink sac of two of my pens. Both pens have their ink sacs replaced and some time later the same damage occurs.

Has anyone experienced the same with Caran d'Ache Saffron ink?. I have no such issues with other pens that are inked with Diamine, Montblanc, Noodlers and Japanese Iroshizuku inks such as Kon Peki and Yama Budo.

[Erik Dalton]

Just wondering if anyone has had any thoughts about De Atramentis Inks. I'm really happy with them so far, but I have not put then in any pens with a sac.

[saskia_madding]

I've only got Steel and Aubergine, but haven't had any trouble with those two in sac pens.

[white_lotus]

I notice this thread hasn't been active for a while. The original intent was for folks to post about their actual experiences that such-and-such ink was in my such-and-such sac-containing pen when it failed. I know the thread turned to a lot of discussion about possible causes, possible suspect inks, etc. All very important.

 

I recently received an Edison Beaumont which uses a latex sac. Brian Gray says in his information letter:

 

I do not recommend using modern "boutique" inks as well as most Japanese inks in this pen, as many of them have a reputation for melting latex.

 

He goes on to "endorse Waterman, Aurora, Diamine, among others".

 

I'm not trying to knock Mr. Gray here, just passing along his view.

 

For me, if I had to abandon all my inks except for the approved ones I'd be left with just a few bottles of ink.

[tonybelding]

I recently received an Edison Beaumont which uses a latex sac. Brian Gray says in his information letter:

 

I do not recommend using modern "boutique" inks as well as most Japanese inks in this pen, as many of them have a reputation for melting latex.

 

He goes on to "endorse Waterman, Aurora, Diamine, among others".

 

I'm not trying to knock Mr. Gray here, just passing along his view.

 

 

I also discussed this with him when he had to repair a couple of bulb-fillers for me. (I've since learned to replace the bulbs on those myself, by the way.) He expressed the same opinions to me, and I know he has far more hands-on experience with this subject. However... After further experiments of my own, and study of the problem, I've begun to think he is probably wrong about this.

 

For one thing, my experience has been that most sacs fail when the pen is in storage for an extended time, even if it was flushed when it was put away. I don't see them melting while the pen is actively in use, regardless of whether they are filled with Noodlers or PR or anything else. It's counter-intuitive that an ink won't melt a sac that's filled with it, yet somehow faint remaining traces after it was flushed can destroy the rubber.

 

Brian's experience is based solely on questioning customers who've sent in pens for repair. He asked me the same question. "What ink did you use in these pens?" "Uhh, it's been a while. Probably Noodler's, and definitely PR in that one pen." "Aha! I knew it!" But wait. . . I flushed those pens before I put them into storage. And I said "probably Noodler's" because I use a heck of a lot of Noodler's ink here, much more than any other brand. I'd hazard a guess that Noodler's and other "boutique" inks are very popular with many of Brian's customers. They're the same demographic that buy Edison pens. But correlation is not causation.

 

Also, there is no sharp dividing line anymore between "boutique" inks and safe, workaday inks. Many formerly stodgy ink makers, and even pen makers, have seen where the market is, and they've all piled in with their own lines of fancy-shmancy inks in a rainbow of saturated colors. There are dozens of ink producers now, and there's no simple or sensible way of sorting them into safe or unsafe categories.

 

I have a friend who is very convinced that the culprit is simply poor quality sacs. Latex rubber is an organic, agricultural product that is also subject to time and shipping and storage conditions before it ever reaches the sac maker, and it's not going to be totally consistent from one shipment to the next.

 

I think that pen storage conditions are probably also a big factor. I've begun to suspect that the choice of ink is somewhere further down the list of causes, if it has any significant contribution at all.

[dcwaites]

I find the same type of attitude with police officers and juvenile justice workers. Given that the vast bulk of young people they come into contact with tend to be "off the rails", they tend to think that all kids are like that.

 

If the vast bulk of pens you repair have had ink in them then you gravitate towards thinking that ink is the problem.

 

We really need some controlled experiments with --

plain, empty ink sacs

ink sacs with distilled water

ink sacs with Diamine | Waterman ink (for a 'safe' ink)

ink sacs with Noodler's Blue (for a saturated plain dye ink)

Ink sacs with Noodler's Black (for a bulletproof ink)

Ink sacs with Baystate Blue ('nuff said, it's BSB)

Then see which ones last shortest and longest.

[amberleadavis]

Tony, you should add a link to your experiments. I found them very helpful. While we are on the topic, do you know if anyone makes nitrile sacs? Would they work as well? (Latex allergies are very serious).

[Ron Z]

Sorry Tony, I disagree.

 

There have been some experiments done in the last few years. The results reported have been that there is a link between sac failure and certain inks. Diluting ink the ink 20% - 25% seems to mitigate the effect, but there was a link. The guy reporting just wasn't ready to publish the results because he wanted to do more testing.

 

Pen mechanics noticed the link years ago. We have a lot of repeat customers so get to ask a lot of questions and uncover their ink preferences and use patterns. It has not been a case of pens being stored. Rather, it has often been on pen that were in regular rotation, regular use. Often times it's a warranty repair, which means that the sac has failed in less than a year, and in some cases in less than 90 days. We don't see the same failure rate with inks made by pen manufacturers, with the exception of red inks (any brand) or inks that contain red like brown and purple.

 

The statement that we see more failed sacs because we repair pens and should be discounted doesn't hold water. OF COURSE we see more because we do work for an awful lot of people. I have dealt with cases where I restored identical pens, on the same day, with sacs that came from the same batch and manufacturer (I use only one for latex). Pen #1 was used with pen manufacturer's inks exclusively, pen #2 was used with Noodlers exclusively. Pen #2 failed, Pen #1 did not. That's one example out of many, many cases over the last 10 years.

 

Believe and act as you wish. I stand by my statements.

[JakobS]

I am a big believer in the use of the scientific method in a variety of ink tests, reviews etc. that are posted here, and thus have always taken a skeptic view of the results based upon the methods and environments used.

But, in being a scientist, I know that to truly understand failure, you cannot simply look at short term results, though the majority of failures may happen within this time. Deterioration of latex after exposure to chemicals can also be a slow process, initiated in one instance, yet not reaching a level of failure until a later time, or further exposure to the same or new chemicals at a later date. As the latex, now weakened, will not have the same ability to withstand such exposure. This is all dependent upon the nature of the ink (acidic, neutral, basic, diluted or not), the cleaning agents used to maintain a pen (ammonia, vinegar, tap water, distilled water), and environment stored (humid, dry, warm, cold, levels of ozone etc.), and the use of the pen, to name a few variables. Even if the ink has been flushed, doesn't mean it didn't began a process of deterioration when in the pen, and the deterioration may not initially present as dramatic change in the structure of the sac.

[white_lotus]

So basically blue and black inks are safe, maybe green too.

 

Most if not all ink manufacturers make inks for cartridge/converter pens, and the piston fillers. Pens with sacs are basically a relic from a bygone age. Edison Pen Co has a couple modern versions of vintage filling systems: a pneumatic filler and a pump filler, that use natural rubber components. Maybe there are some other brands doing something similarly but I don't keep up with all of them so cannot comment on what they may offer.

 

So we're talking about a very small portion of the fountain pens on the market and in use today.

 

Just saying "Noodler's" was the problem is actually insufficient information. Goulet Pens lists 132 entries for Noodler's ink for sale. Did the owner use all 132 inks? My guess not.

 

A look through the Cole-Parmer Chemical Compatibility database for the material "natural rubber" which is what most people call "latex" shows many common chemicals that are not suitable with that material. Even butter, mayonnaise, many oils, Ammonia 10%, all degrade the material until it fails.

 

https://www.coleparmer.com/chemical-resistance

 

I'll agree that modern inks, with modern chemical components, aren't made with sacs in mind. But we're talking about a $1 part. And there are so many new ink makers in the marketplace: KWZ, Callifolio, Robert Oster, Blackstone, even Organics Studio is available again. As well as the specialty lines from Sailor, Pilot/Iroshizuku, Pelikan/Edelstein. I've even heard a pen repair person at a show denounce J. Herbin.

 

Anyway, I agree with the poster regarding scientific analysis and results. But I do think it's a bit unrealistic to think that modern pen users will stick to a handful of boring inks.

[jmccarty3]

But I do think it's a bit unrealistic to think that modern pen users will stick to a handful of boring inks.

 

I agree completely. But there are worse things in the world than to write with Sheaffer Skrip Blue, Sheaffer Skrip Blue Black, Waterman Serenity Blue, and Mysterious Blue (which is really green). So if owners of pens with sacs want to play it safe, I don't criticize them. OTOH, if they don't mind replacing sacs once it awhile, that's fine too. Everyone should just do what seems comfortable.

[Uncial]

Posted by Tony:

I have a friend who is very convinced that the culprit is simply poor quality sacs. Latex rubber is an organic, agricultural product that is also subject to time and shipping and storage conditions before it ever reaches the sac maker, and it's not going to be totally consistent from one shipment to the next.

 

This is my feeling about it too. Since my last post I had my Parker 51 vac rubber unit melt...again! Aghh! I only ever used Waterman Black in it. So anyway, I bought another two - one from a seller in the UK who did pen repairs and one from ebay (I think it came from Germany if memory serves). The one from the UK was installed in the pen and the other from Germany was left in its little plastic sealed bag in my drawer. They UK one is still in my pen and still working fine. A couple of months after getting the German one I took it out of the bag to check it and noticed it was getting sort of tacky - not sticky though. It still had a little of its chalk on it. I left it alone and within a couple of weeks it was sticky and starting to turn.

 

Now this is only my experience and it is really very limited, but I've had all manner of weird and wonderful inks run through about ten other sac pens and no problems since I last posted about this. I use quite a lot of red and red hued inks and I'm a big user of Noodler's and Sailor inks. Over the last six months I have kept a detailed record of all my inkings, but after no sac failures I decided not to keep it. I'm sure there are some inks that react with rubber sacs; there have to be some, but I think the quality and standard of the rubber must also be a big factor. I should also note that I have a vintage Conway Stewart that still has its original sac...and it works! Now that I've said it, it will probably go and melt on me. I've owned that pen for about three years and its been inked with all manner of things and when you examine the sac it has a very different feel and texture from new sacs. It feels a lot more robust and is quite thick and not in any way tacky. I've bought some modern sacs that are so desperately thin that when I stretch them gently over my finger to check for cracks and micro holes, they have ripped. Some of them have been tacky from the start so I have never put them in a pen and simply binned them.

[tonybelding]

 

I agree completely. But there are worse things in the world than to write with Sheaffer Skrip Blue, Sheaffer Skrip Blue Black, Waterman Serenity Blue, and Mysterious Blue (which is really green). So if owners of pens with sacs want to play it safe, I don't criticize them. OTOH, if they don't mind replacing sacs once it awhile, that's fine too. Everyone should just do what seems comfortable.

 

 

It's funny you mention those inks in particular, since some of them are prone to severe and rapid fading. I personally have had recent experience with Waterman Mysterious Blue that faded badly within a few weeks of being written, in a closed journal. Furthermore, Waterman ink has in the past been accused of being acidic and attacking metal trim parts. It seems to be a rare thing, but it was reported more than once here on FPN.