Is It Really Your Handwriting?

[pepsiplease69]

Here's my writing at the current time. And this is after 2-3 years of daily practice.

 

[therecorder]

AS the OP of this thread, I need to say a couple of things. First, I am thrilled that this thread has attracted so much attention. Thanks to all of you for your reactions and resulting comments. Second, as is the case with many a thread, this thread started by talking about "apples," and it has turned into a discussion on "oranges." I myself am guilty of this, as is evidenced in my positive comments about "monoline script "Business Writing." I would love to spend time learning, and being able to write a bit using this script, or for that matter, any of the beautiful scripts thus far mentioned or linked to. But, for me, these scripts are demonstrations of artwork, not handwriting. If I was fortunate enough to halfway learn how to write with one of these scripts, I could never utilize the script for my everyday writing. For example, if I acquired a basic ability to write using monoline script "Business Writing," I could never use it to make entries in my journal. Why? Because, by the time I would finish writing my first couple of sentences, I would forget what I originally wanted to say. Can any of the younger people here imagine using one of these fantastic scripts to write exams?

People, I felt like I was cheating with my handwriting (apples), not with my artwork/calligraphy (oranges). This thread was intended to be about using a tool (a stub nib) during my everyday writing, looking at it, and feeling as if the tool wrote what I saw, not me. I was trying to see if anyone else felt like I did when using this tool. I wasn't looking for a wrong or right answer, because there is none. It all about whatever makes us feel good, about ourselves and about our writing.

[ac12]

I use the "business writing" style for my journal. I simply slow down when I write. I decided that after decades of UGLY writing, I was going to do my journal in a hand that pleases me and that I can read. So I write somewhat slow, but nowhere near as slow as I would when I practice calligraphy. What I learned is that my handwriting gets worse as my speed increases. So to keep it nice and readable, I have to slow down. Luckily, the only time that I forget a thought is when I pause my writing. Then when I go back to continue, duh....what was I going to write???

 

This topic has made me think that I'm going to start using my Lamy 1.1 nib more in my journal.

[Cryptos]

AS the OP of this thread, I need to say a couple of things. First, I am thrilled that this thread has attracted so much attention. Thanks to all of you for your reactions and resulting comments. Second, as is the case with many a thread, this thread started by talking about "apples," and it has turned into a discussion on "oranges." I myself am guilty of this, as is evidenced in my positive comments about "monoline script "Business Writing." I would love to spend time learning, and being able to write a bit using this script, or for that matter, any of the beautiful scripts thus far mentioned or linked to. But, for me, these scripts are demonstrations of artwork, not handwriting. If I was fortunate enough to halfway learn how to write with one of these scripts, I could never utilize the script for my everyday writing. For example, if I acquired a basic ability to write using monoline script "Business Writing," I could never use it to make entries in my journal. Why? Because, by the time I would finish writing my first couple of sentences, I would forget what I originally wanted to say. Can any of the younger people here imagine using one of these fantastic scripts to write exams?

 

People, I felt like I was cheating with my handwriting (apples), not with my artwork/calligraphy (oranges). This thread was intended to be about using a tool (a stub nib) during my everyday writing, looking at it, and feeling as if the tool wrote what I saw, not me. I was trying to see if anyone else felt like I did when using this tool. I wasn't looking for a wrong or right answer, because there is none. It all about whatever makes us feel good, about ourselves and about our writing.

 

Why do you think that Business Writing cannot be done quickly? Just how fast do you want or need to go? On the broad-edge front, many people have an italic hand as their daily writing hand, and I am sure many of them write pretty quickly too. Of course one has to start off slowly. Perhaps one of the reasons you are disatisfid with your usual hand is because you are going too fast at the expense of a form you previously learned well? Just a consideration.

[therecorder]

 

 

Why do you think that Business Writing cannot be done quickly? Just how fast do you want or need to go? On the broad-edge front, many people have an italic hand as their daily writing hand, and I am sure many of them write pretty quickly too. Of course one has to start off slowly. Perhaps one of the reasons you are disatisfid with your usual hand is because you are going too fast at the expense of a form you previously learned well? Just a consideration.

Somewhere between the demonstration and quick writing that Steve does, starting at 15:00 on this video:

 

 

The writing sample that I posted previously was written at this desired speed. I write at a speed that can keep up with my thoughts. You are luckier than I am. Much of my journal writing is philosophical or anthropological in nature, and my train of thought is easily lost. I write to capture an idea; a reaction of the moment.

Edited May 28, 2015 by therecorder

[Cryptos]

 

The writing sample that I posted previously was written at this desired speed. I write at a speed that can keep up with my thoughts. You are luckier than I am. Much of my journal writing is philosophical or anthropological in nature, and my train of thought is easily lost. I write to capture an idea; a reaction of the moment.

Not sure exactly how to interpret that. Much of my journal writing... what am I saying... ALL of my journal writing is philosophical in nature. I guess it's generally easier for me being as uneducated as I am (you may well be surprised by HOW uneducated. Then again you may not ). My own philosophical thoughts probably don't get too complex or convoluted. And yet, you never know, one day I may stumble across an original insight. Still, dum vita est spes est!

Edited May 28, 2015 by Cardboard_Tube

[httpmom]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the 'Business Hand' was developed for aid in speed while writing at the time.

[nickmazur]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the 'Business Hand' was developed for aid in speed while writing at the time.

 

Yes, absolutely!

 

In fact, there's a quote in one of the Palmer books that says (I am paraphrasing) "If it's not fast, it's not Palmer Method."

 

To answer the OP, handwriting, which is very different from calligraphy, is meant to be done rapidly, for a long time, with ease, and good legibility. The problem for most of us these days is that we didn't study handwriting as children, so our handwriting looks bad, is inefficient, illegible. It's very difficult to develop beautiful, rapid handwriting without putting in hours and hours of practice, not matter the nib shape.

 

My Mother was educated in a school system that paid special attention to handwriting. She practiced drills for long, long hours, and had a mean teacher . As a result, her handwriting was both fast and beautiful.

[cellmatrix]

My business writing, after about a year of practice is, like my italic, very much a work in progress, I feel like I need another year or two to really get both of them down. I had not written in cursive since elementary school, so the business writing is still very new to me. Lately I have been using the business writing to take notes and journal with and the italic to send letters and cards. Its a nice way to practice both styles. As far as instruction, per Ken Frazier's advice I used the book "Moderm Business Penmanship" by E.C. Mills to learn monoline cursive, and the book "Write Now" by Getty and Dubay to learn italic. Both of them I think are excellent introductions to each style of writing. I wish all of you the best of success in your writing endeavors!!!

Edited May 28, 2015 by cellmatrix

[DrDebG]

Fascinating discussion all!

 

I am one who is also concerned about what is proper and honest. And, even though I am left handed, I have a pleasing penmanship. Yet, I do not have the time at this juncture of my life, to learn calligraphy. Perhaps at a later time.

 

BUT, I can still appreciate and express my little bit of artisty in my writing by using a stub or broad nib. And, if the truth be told, I must slow down when I use either of these, and so my writing becomes smoother and more rhythmic, which I find more appealing.

[pepsiplease69]

Well, I want to chime in one last time to come full circle on this.

@therecorder: I believe the prevailing sentiment here is that we don't believe you're cheating. You shouldn't feel that way at all. Look at the way you were writing with an italic nib maybe 1 year ago and compare it to the way you write now. If you see that it's improved, become more consistent and more legible and more pleasant to look at, then you have no reason to feel that you're cheating on anything. In fact you're putting in the hard work to build a skill, a talent, that not everybody has.

I put a couple of (maybe non-relevant) examples before you. I've recently gotten into building circuit boards and playing around with electronic components. I'm embarking on project to build a gizmo which will be able to record and emit infrared signals which I an then use to control my TV, Set top box, cable box, dvd player etc etc. Now there are devices out there which do exactly the same thing. Particularly of note is the one I use at the current time and it is made by logitech called the logitech harmony line.

But for me building my own gadget to do this is the real thrill. It requires hard work, perseverence, attention to detail. Looking back now. The logitech harmony that I use now could be really the one that can be considered cheating. Just going to the store and buying something that will do the job.

A while back I wrote some letters to a couple of folks. I used onion skin paper, thinnest paper I have, even thinner than Tomoe River, and I used it as tracing paper. I wanted to write the letter in old english/gothic/blackletter script but I didn't have the consistency of hand (I still don't) to produce something presentable. So what I did instead, was to download an old-english truetype font from the internet and install it on my PC and write the letter in Microsoft Word and print it out. Put my tracing paper over that and trace the writing. Now THAT'S cheating!

Well, let me qualify that. It's only cheating if I intend to never learn how to write gothic script, if I have no intent to improve, and just always use this method whenever I need to write gothic. If in my heart I'm using this as a perpetual scapegoat for doing the hard work, then yes it's cheating. If I want to use this as a launch pad, a building block to improve on, and, at some point down the future to take the training wheels off, then I wouldn't call even this as cheating.

Sorry for the long winded post but it's quite an interesting topic you've started and I thank and appreciate all those who have chimed in here.

[therecorder]

pepsiplease69 wrote:

 

"@therecorder: I believe the prevailing sentiment here is that we don't believe you're cheating."

 

So, I pose this scenario... I am transported back to my childhood, my elementary school days. The annual school handwriting contest is taking place. All the contestants, including myself, are siting at their desks, and on each desk is a sheet of paper that contains the text that each student will have to write, and a blank sheet of paper for each student, on which to they must write/copy the text. Each student will get a half an hour to finish the copying, way more time than is necessary, even for the slowest and most careful of the writers. The test starts, and, after the half an hour has passed, the judges go around the room, take each (signatured) finished paper, and pin it on the judging wall, for all to see.

 

After about ten minutes, the other contestants start gathering around me, telling me how beautiful my handwriting is, and telling me that I am sure to win. Another ten minutes pass, and the head judge shouts, "We have a winner!!!" Calmly he says, "The winner is Susan Wiggins. I am heartbroken, and my classmates try to console me. Susan's handwriting was nice, but I (and everyone else) knew it wasn't as nice as mine. Slowly, I started to leave the room, head down, shoulders stooped. I heard my name called. I looked around, and saw that the head judge was motioning that she wanted to talk to me. I slowly walked over to her, and looked up at her face. She said, "I think you might be wondering why you didn't win the contest." "Yes Ma'am," I dejectedly replied. Sternly, she said, "You didn't win because you cheated, and you were disqualified... You used a pen that had a nib that made your handwriting look nicer, fancier. Everyone was told that they could not use any special nibs." "But Ma'am, this nib isn't special. It's the pen and nib that I use all the time," I weakly screeched. That may very well be, but in this contest it gave you an unfair advantage," she said.

 

I need not go further with this story... My question is simple. Was the judge correct? Did I cheat?

Edited May 29, 2015 by therecorder

[dms525]

 

pepsiplease69 wrote:

 

"@therecorder: I believe the prevailing sentiment here is that we don't believe you're cheating."

 

So, I pose this scenario... I am transported back to my childhood, my elementary school days. The annual school handwriting contest is taking place. All the contestants, including myself, are siting at their desks, and on each desk is a sheet of paper that contains the text that each student will have to write, and a blank sheet of paper for each student, on which to they must write/copy the text. Each student will get a half an hour to finish the copying, way more time than is necessary, even for the slowest and most careful of the writers. The test starts, and, after the half an hour has passed, the judges go around the room, take each (signatured) finished paper, and pin it on the judging wall, for all to see.

 

After about ten minutes, the other contestants start gathering around me, telling me how beautiful my handwriting is, and telling me that I am sure to win. Another ten minutes pass, and the head judge shouts, "We have a winner!!!" Calmly he says, "The winner is Susan Wiggins. I am heartbroken, and my classmates try to console me. Susan's handwriting was nice, but I (and everyone else) knew it wasn't as nice as mine. Slowly, I started to leave the room, head down, shoulders stooped. I heard my name called. I looked around, and saw that the head judge was motioning that she wanted to talk to me. I slowly walked over to her, and looked up at her face. She said, "I think you might be wondering why you didn't win the contest." "Yes Ma'am," I dejectedly replied. Sternly, she said, "You didn't win because you cheated, and you were disqualified... You used a pen that had a nib that made your handwriting look nicer, fancier. Everyone was told that they could not use any special nibs." "But Ma'am, this nib isn't special. It's the pen and nib that I use all the time," I weakly screeched. That may very well be, but in this contest it gave you an unfair advantage," she said.

 

I need not go further with this story... My question is simple. Was the judge correct? Did I cheat?

 

 

Please excuse my bluntness, but this is preposterous. Was Heifetz "cheating" because he played a Strad? Is a horse disqualified from winning a race because he has a better Jockey? Pens and nibs are tools. Better tools make it easier to perform better. Talent and practice also enhance performance. Should your grade in a class be lowered because you studied too hard?

 

Obtain the best tools you can find and can afford. Learn how to use them optimally.

 

If your handwriting looks better when you write with a stub nib, that is a taste of how good it could be if you took that nib and really worked at your penmanship. Get off the computer, pick up the pen and develop your skillful use of that stub nib.

 

And enjoy it!

 

David

[therecorder]

David,

 

Why so angry. We're having a discussion. If you think this thread is "preposterous," then just don't participate.

 

As for your comment, "Get off the computer, pick up the pen and develop your skillful use of that stub nib," I'm only a few years younger than you. Both of us know how we "want" to spend our retirement time. You spend it how you want to, and I'll do the same. I'm disabled, and live alone in the middle of the Negev Desert... For me (and my plenty of spare time), I enjoy the periodic interchanges with other forum members.

Edited May 29, 2015 by therecorder

[Cryptos]

The judge was wrong and you have been labouring under a delusion all these years. Time to let that baggage go. That's my opinion and my advice. What you do with either is up to you, but in general the choices devolve to either following the advice and living now and not in the past, or ignoring the advice and allowing it to adversely colour the rest of your life. You may feel that I am as blunt as David (and I'm David too by the way). However, you did ask, so I thought to give you straight, unambiguous and honest reply.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Cardboard_Tube

[therecorder]

 

The judge was wrong and you have been labouring under a delusion all these years. Time to let that baggage go. That's my opinion and my advice. What you do with either is up to you, but in general the choices devolve to either follwing the advice and living now and not in the past, or ignoring the advice and allowing it to adversely colour the rest of your life. You may feel that I am as blunt as David (and I'm David too by the way). However, you did ask, so I thought to give you straight, unambiguous and honest reply.

Blunt, I can deal with. But, I didn't think David was Blunt. I thought he was a bit rude and assuming. But, no big deal.

 

The scenario that I put forth was a hypothetical. It never happened to me. However, we are all the sum of all our previous reactions. We are all affected by what came before. With respect to the present discussion (for me to use or not use a stub nib), many of the posters here need to lighten up We are talking about fountain pens... How can there be an extremely important discussion about fountain pens? There can't, at least not for me.

[Cryptos]

And yet here we are already on page four...

 

I have offered my opinion on your original inquiry, and don't feel I have anything else to add.

[dms525]

David,

 

Why so angry. We're having a discussion. If you think this thread is "preposterous," then just don't participate.

 

As for your comment, "Get off the computer, pick up the pen and develop your skillful use of that stub nib," I'm only a few years younger than you. Both of us know how we "want" to spend our retirement time. You spend it how you want to, and I'll do the same. I'm disabled, and live alone in the middle of the Negev Desert... For me (and my plenty of spare time), I enjoy the periodic interchanges with other forum members.

 

I am not angry and believe (and stated) that I was being "blunt," i.e., honest. My response reflected my feeling that you had asked a question, and most of the answers sidestepped the heart of your question.

 

My wish was that you would see your improved writing with a stub nib as a challenge to take advantage of, as an inspiration. Of course, if you cannot see it that way, you cannot. Naturally, how you choose to spend your time is not for me to decide, but I can surely suggest an option.

 

I am sorry if you experienced my directness as "rude."

 

David

Edited May 29, 2015 by dms525

[Dronak]

Sternly, she said, "You didn't win because you cheated, and you were disqualified... You used a pen that had a nib that made your handwriting look nicer, fancier. Everyone was told that they could not use any special nibs." "But Ma'am, this nib isn't special. It's the pen and nib that I use all the time," I weakly screeched. That may very well be, but in this contest it gave you an unfair advantage," she said.

 

I need not go further with this story... My question is simple. Was the judge correct? Did I cheat?

 

In this hypothetical writing contest, I'd say maybe, because it would depend on the rules (did they specify what types of nibs are "special"?) and how clear the participants were on the rules and what was/wasn't allowed. That aside, I really think you're asking in general if using a stub nib is somehow "cheating", and I don't think it is. Sure, it will give a different look to your handwriting, but I don't think that makes it any less yours. The pen is a tool. You could use a pencil, marker, crayon, etc. to write with, and each different writing instrument would likely give your handwriting a different look. I think that's fine, and not cheating in some way. You have different tools to do different things, and you use them how you want. That's fine. Enjoy your stub nib(s) and how your handwriting looks using it(them)!

[Bklyn]

If I could write well, make my stuff look nice, I would do it any way possible.