Is It Really Your Handwriting?

[the_gasman]

therecorder,

 

After all the soul searching and philosophy, it's just killing me to see what your hand-writing is like.

Do you take requests? Would you be prepared post small samples in both plain medium and with a stub/italic?

Then we, the jury, could decide whether it's to be the chain gang, the therapist, or the stage. ☺

 

Cheers, David.

[the_gasman]

BTW if that last post causes offence (I hope not), I'll delete it straight away.

[nickmazur]

I think of it as a tool, sort of like a brush for a painter or camera for a photographer. I remember once reading here on FPN that a well-regarded seller of pens at pen shows offers people several pens to try and most often people buy stubs because they like the way their handwriting looks. Regardless, it is still very much your handwriting. You can just feel better about it .

[Cryptos]

Does a golfer feel that it is not him playing golf when he chooses a different club for a particular shot?

 

Does an artist feel that he is cheating when he chooses a different sized brush or maybe a palette knife to apply paint to the canvas?

 

The tools we use have certain characteristics, yet it is the underlying skill that allows us to use those tools.

 

The OP is an interesting thought but not one I would lose too much sleep over.

[caliken]

..... I also often feel that using these nibs are me taking the easy way out. Instead of spending the time and effort to train my hand to write nicely, I use an easier route.

Any thoughts?

 

The Italic hand doesn't necessarily look any better or more impressive with an edged nib, than monoline.. I find it just as beautiful written monoline as with an edged nib. It is beautiful because of its structure, not because it was written with an Italic nib. Italic is my normal handwriting and I frequently write monoline by choice.

The choice of nib doesn't effect the level of personality in the writing. It just produces a different look.

 

Monoline Italic

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Pure%20water%20400.jpg

Edited May 22, 2015 by Caliken

[ac12]

Nah, not cheating.

I use all sorts of nibs; ball tip (XF,F,M), CI, flex dip pens.

 

When you said "when I look at my stub and cursive italic writing, I sort of feel like I'm not looking at my writing, I'm looking at what I wish was my writing."

My feeling is that you paid more attention to your writing with the stub or CI nib, thus making it look better.

I know this is true for me when I pull out my dip pens. I pay a LOT more attention to my writing when I write with a dip pen than a standard ball tip pen. So of course it looks better.

 

Also I think it is what you are used to looking at for MANY years, the mono-line of your ball nib. If you use a CI nib for a year, you will get used to that as your "normal" nib.

 

I think of the different nibs like tools in a carpenters tool box. Use the nib that is appropriate for the writing you are doing, and the feeling that you want to get across. Example my journal is mostly done with ball tips, my Christmas cards were done with a CI nib, and for a special reunion of a close group of college friends, I did the invites with a flex dip pen.

 

To me, the stub or CI nib is an easy way to get line variation that looks like it was from a flex nib, to the average person. It looks "neat," and it requires little extra effort, aside from adjusting for the width of the nib. I always have at least one CI nib pen inked up in my pen cup.

The flex nibs of my dip pens are my "fancy" writing tools. It is still MY handwriting but with the extra look of a flex nib. And I use an oblique dip pen, because it is a lot easier than trying to use a flex fountain pen properly.

[migo984]

AAAndrew...

 

Your reply got my intellectual juices churning... Read this review... (I just ordered the book from Amazon - Only $10 for the book, but $25 for the cheapest shipping, so I won't get it for at least a month.)

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/historybookreviews/10304108/The-Golden-Thread-the-Story-of-Writing-by-Ewan-Clayton-review.html

I bought this book on publication last year, after hearing the author on BBC Radio 4. It's an interesting read.

[therecorder]

Sorry I haven't responded to the last several comments. After my last post, I ate dinner and then retired early. At the moment, for me, it's the middle of the night (01:12), and I'm uncomfortably responding on my tablet. In the morning, I'll try to catch up (and ink a few pens for writing samples.)

[MKB]

Isn't it a construct? Haven't we made up the rules? If you believe you are not being true to yourself when you use a stub, then in your structure and for you, you may be right. In that structure, even my use of the stub may be artifice. I go back to - pull it apart for what it is, let go and have fun.

[httpmom]

Yes, when you write with a calligraphy nib of any type your handwriting is by the very nature of the tool...different. There is no way for it be any other than what the pen is designed to do. It also forces you to take your time and think about each and every letter. To me, that's the beauty of using calligraphy nibs. There are those of us who spend hours practicing various alphabets...each one unique. Add to that, an individual difference between the way each person executes the specific alphabet and you have much variety indeed. And yes, calligraphy nibs bring a higher degree of beauty to writing. I would never think of it as "cheating" however. And it's been going on for centuries. It's an art form after all.

 

In fact, what is now called "Modern Calligraphy" (unlike Spencerian, Copperplate,Chancery Italic, etc.)has no set rules nor any real copy books. I think that is the very reason it's becoming ever more popular with the younger generations. Without the formality of traditional calligraphy people feel unintimidated (is that a word?) enough to try something they might not ever have attempted in the past. From what I understand, the whole idea is to make it your own personal style of writing. Now that's creative!

 

Note: I will also add that my personal handwriting has changed many times over the years for various reasons...necessity of speed being the biggest one.

 

Of course this is just the opinion of a 63 year old lady who has been doing calligraphy off and on since I was in elementary school. There might be a philosophical point here, but I have no immediate analogy to share.

Edited May 22, 2015 by httpmom

[Yaakova]

Thanks to the three of you for attempting to help me feel better. However, I think I should have been more specific about my question. I asked (at the end), "Any thoughts?" What I should have asked is:

 

Any thoughts about whether using a stub or cursive Italic is cheating, and a lazy man/woman's way of handwriting?

 

An interesting query. I taught myself the italic alphabet several decades ago, and I have used many sizes and variations of italic and stub nibs through the years. It always feels vaguely like cheating to me if I use an italic/stub nib to write in my own version of the Palmer script I learned from my grandmother instead of the "official" Chancery Italic hand.

[Cryptos]

Of course the other side of the question is whether anyone believes they have a natural hand. I imagine most of us were taught how to write at some stage in our developmental years, and so our writing is inextricably informed by that teaching. In that sense, and also in the sense that we further learn new styles, our hand is really an amalgam rather than a unique individual style. Just in my opinion of course.

[therecorder]

nickmazur

There was this lonely guy who went to the local club, hoping to connect with a woman (at least someone with whom to talk). No luck... He bombed. The next morning, he told his sister about his misadventure. She told him to go out and buy some new, flashy clothes; stop at a hair stylist and get the latest doo , and a shave; go back to the club, sit at the bar and order some single malt scotch (instead of his choice of beers); and just smile at the ladies, but don't stare, and try not to look lonely. His sister's advice worked. He had women just swarming around him. In fact, he actually left with one. As they got up to leave, she said, "You know, I don't even know your name." He smiled, and replied, "My name is actually John Doe, but you just call be Stub."

Cardboard_Tube

The golfer might feel that it is not him playing golf, if he is using one of those PGA illegal putters, and plays the best round in his life.

The artist uses the tools he needs to best replicate what he perceives through his eyes, and/or his mind's eye. What is the stub user perceiving? I guess that all depends on the audience for whom he is writing. What a stub or cursive italic nib usually do is add pleasure to the final product. They do nothing for accomplishing the desired task of writing, unless you think that your audience (perhaps just yourself) will more appreciate the looks of what you are writing. It is even possible that writing with these "specialty" nibs will actually detract from the intention of the writing.

Donor Pen

Your Monoline Italic is gorgeous, immaculate, perfection... But it is also sterile and anonymous... It shows no personality... Do you swear it isn't a computer font? It is beautiful for it's purpose, to let the words speak without revealing the identity or personality of their scribe. (This is what the monks have always done when copying religious texts.)

ac12

You use various nibs and writing instruments to accomplish various tasks in various ways. This is not my problem. When I write in my journal, my hope is simply to record my thoughts. Using "fancy" nibs seems only to distract me during this process, and consequently detract from my desired result.

MKB

Short, and pretty much directly to the point... Perhaps my problem is that I don't know how to have fun. Guess that's why I'm alone in the middle of the Negev Desert

httpmom

Shame you're a Mom, and most probably a wife. Otherwise, I'd invite you to come to the desert to show me some of your work... I'd even let you call me Stub.

Yaakova

FINALLY!!! Someone who also sometimes feels as if they are cheating.

Cardboard_Tube

An amalgam yes, but each individual's hand is unique. Perhaps this is what bothers me when I use stub or cursive italic nibs... These nibs make me feel less unique.

Edited May 23, 2015 by therecorder

[therecorder]

Short writing sample will come later. Here, it's early in the morning, and I have to get myself into a cleaning and filling state of mind.

[Cryptos]

 

The artist uses the tools he needs to best replicate what he perceives through his eyes, and/or his mind's eye. What is the stub user perceiving? I guess that all depends on the audience for whom he is writing. What a stub or cursive italic nib usually do is add pleasure to the final product. They do nothing for accomplishing the desired task of writing, unless you think that your audience (perhaps just yourself) will more appreciate the looks of what you are writing. It is even possible that writing with these "specialty" nibs will actually detract from the intention of the writing.

 

You're over-thinking this. Writing is a form of recording our thoughts and can be lent a certain aesthetic depending on personal preferences and skills. What is the intention? To produce legible copy, beautiful script, or both. The nib is a basic tool. To deny yourself the use of tools seems faintly ludicrous given that tool use is one of the defining characteristics of our species.

 

Whatever the instrument you use, your writing is still a product of your own hand and mind.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Cardboard_Tube

[therecorder]

 

 

You're over-thinking this. Writing is a form of recording our thoughts and can be lent a certain aesthetic depending on personal preferences and skills. What is the intention? To produce legible copy, beautiful script, or both. The nib is a basic tool. To deny yourself the use of tools seems faintly ludicrous given that tool use is one of the defining characteristics of our species.

 

Whatever you instrument you use, your writing is still a product of your own hand and mind.

The intention writing is much more than the production of legible copy, beautiful script, or both, especially if you look at it historically, around the globe. Weapons are tools. Does it seem faintly ludicrous to deny myself (and others) the use of these tools.

I think the best definition of writing is symbolism It's me using externally visable signs, separate from my body, to convey a thought to myself or to others. In some ways there is a very thin line between writing and speaking. James Spader, in the film Alien Hunter (at 05:30), does a nice job of summarizing communication, the exchange of thoughts.

 

Am I over-thinking this? Perhaps... Actually, very likely. But this is me... using signs to relay my thoughts.

[Cryptos]

Re: intention. What is your intention when writing?

 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your ideas in this thread - highly likely as I am quite a dumb person. There are many reasons why people write and I would hazard a guess that in the main they did not concern themselves over what their hand looked like or what tools they used. In other words, I expect they simply wrote in their preferred style du jour and with the available and appropriate instruments.

 

Different nibs embellish our own writing. And some force us to adopt new styles. As I said before, underneath what the nib can do, it is still your hand.

 

I daresay I am not making a clear case here or even a decent argument, but it is how I think of this.

[therecorder]

Cardboard_Tube

 

The problem/fault is all mine. Some 40 years ago, a coworker said that I was overeducated for my intelligence. My unintelligent reaction to that statement was to continue acquiring more formal and informal education. All this education sometimes clouds my mind, and gives me a swelled head. I meant no disrespect when I commented on you opinions. You're not the dumb one here. I get stuck on finding answers to question that probably have no answers, I can never leave "well enough" alone, and I love getting in the last word.

 

In short, my apologies.

[Cryptos]

An apology is not necessary but I appreciate the sentiment.

 

For my part I generally struggle to understand the discussions that go on here, unless they are very simple ones. I join in from time to time as it is a great learning opportunity, though I frequently find myself out of my depth and in trouble.

 

I like writing with fountain pens though! I do not have a specific hand that I can discern, suspect I may have been taught something like Palmer cursive as a child. It was such a long time ago that I do not recall it with any clarity.

[therecorder]