pen hierarchy?

[myotis]

It is obvious from this forum that Parker 51s have a very good reputation for their abilities as writing instruments.

 

But as people are also spending considerable sums of money on pens costing much more than a second hand Parker 51, where do 51s sit in the pen hierarchy.

 

For example if you already have a working $50 Parker 51 and buy a $400 Sailor or Pelikan or Conway Stewart, are you still going to prefer writing with the 51, Or keeping it the family is the more expensive Parker Duofold a better writer than than the 51.

 

I know this isn't a simple questions because their are many aspects to why a person will enjoy using one pen over another.

 

None the less I just wondered if their was a "loosely" accepted hierarchy "writing quality" in pens.

 

Thanks,

 

Graham

[Ray-Vigo]

I'm a skeptic of any supposed "hierarchy" based on price. There are plenty of cases of low cost winners and high price duds. There are sometimes when I pull out my favorite vintage rubber pen, and then there are times I'm glad I'm carrying a cheaper plastic pen.

 

As for reputation: from what I see the 51 does very well as an all-around nice pen. Though I will say I don't have any.

Edited March 2, 2007 by Ray-Vigo

[myotis]

QUOTE (Ray-Vigo @ Mar 2 2007, 06:23 PM)

I'm a skeptic of any supposed "hierarchy" based on price.

Mmmm, obviously explained myself badly, I was meaning a hierarchy based on writing quality. hence me suggesting that even if you spend large amounts of money on other pens, you may well still prefer writing with the 51.

 

Certainly, I am hoping for hierarchy suggestions that ignore price.

 

Graham

[MYU]

Good question. Simple answer: depends on the person.

 

Regarding "second hand Parker 51's", a board member just recently forked over around $2k for a rare DJ Parker 51 set. So you really can't peg a Parker 51 into a specific hierarchy of pens.

 

However, there is the "general" strata of "reputation", much like with anything else (i.e. Montblanc is ranked higher than Parker, as Mercedes Benz is over Ford). But don't forget that a Parker DJ can easily displace a Montblanc Meisterstuck, much like a '56 Ford Thunderbird would displace a Mercedes 500SEL.

 

As for writing well... again, depends on the person. Some people love the Parker 51 while others dislike it. That's the rub on this hobby... if you're serious about it, you will inevitably find yourself acquiring multiple pens to find what suits you best (meaning the form factor of the pen body and the performance of the nib/feeder combination--plus nib style!). I think it's a mistake to take just one pen and never look further. It's just like picking a bed... you don't know which one feels best until you've tried several of them. (But unlike having just one bed, pens are small--you can easily have many!).

Edited March 2, 2007 by MYU

[myotis]

Myu,

 

But does the $2000 parker 51 actually write better than a cheaper one, or you paying for the finish and rarity.

 

Equally, although the Mont Blanc is at the top end in terms of status, I have seen it suggested here that it is only middling as a writer.

 

I know it depends on the individual, but even then there is often some generally accepted hierarchy.

 

And yes, I already have several pens (including a Parker 51), with another two on the way !!

 

Graham

[George]

A $2000 dollar empire set does NOT, let me repeat, NOT write better at all compared to a $5 vac from a flea market. The empire set I bought was not to use, but to have as a "collectors" item. It also looks better, but looks dont make the pen. If I was stranded on an island, i would rather have a flighter or a simple 51 then my empire set. Its what you like. I use a parker 51 aero on a daily basis, and i got it at a flea market. I love it.

 

Oh yeah, a ultra rare 51 does NOT write better then a normal 51.

[andyk]

Obviously with some pens (especially vintage ones) you are paying for rarity be it colour trim or whatever and I don't think the price relates to how well two pens of the same model in similar condition will write.

 

I'm sure there are lots of very expensive pens out there that are terrible writers and cheap ones that write brlliantly.

 

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

QUOTE

But does the $2000 parker 51 actually write better than a cheaper one, or you paying for the finish and rarity.

 

I think you are paying for finish and rarity. There are many out there who feel that a humble Parker 51, or Sheaffer Snorkel, or any number of pens that may be had for around $50 or so write better than any higher priced pen in the world. Probably true for them. There are other issues like flex in the nib - some might prefer a super-flexy Waterman 52 as a writer better than a Parker 51. I have even heard some people compare entry-level Pelikans as better than any of the ones mentioned.

 

On the other hand, some do not like the size and balance of the 51. They may find they need a Pelikan 1000 size pen for a comfortable writer, and then the added price of the larger size means something. Not that you can't get oversized vintage 2nd tier pens for a lot less than a Pelikan 1000. There are a lot of reasons why someone might prefer a more expensive pen that fits their hand better.

 

I think the only place where price means a whole lot in terms of writing experience (when the nib hits the paper, so to speak) is with some of the fancy Japanese nib-work that is out there, and with some custom nib-work. Once you get beyond that and a few fancy filling systems, then most of the price differential is aesthetic, whether the aesthetic of the pen in hand, or the visual/material aesthetic.

 

But aesthetics and rarity are perfectly good reasons to pay more for a pen.

 

John

[Ray-Vigo]

I agree- the high prices are often driven by rarity.

 

You can get a perfectly nice working Phileas, Pilot 78G, Pilot Knight, or Lamy for a good price.

[myotis]

QUOTE (George @ Mar 2 2007, 07:54 PM)

A $2000 dollar empire set does NOT, let me repeat, NOT write better at all compared to a $5 vac from a flea market.

In some respects this is part of the reason for the question, because there are at least three aspects of owning a pen, one as a writing tool, one as an object that give pleasure in the way it looks and in the quality of manufacture, and one as a collectors item. Which of course can all be rolled into one pen.

 

I am just intrigued that given the enthusiasm for 51s, is it impossible to get something that writes "better", whatever that means, only to get pens you prefer because of style, size weight or indeed status.

 

Graham

 

[myotis]

QUOTE (Johnny Appleseed @ Mar 2 2007, 08:03 PM)

But aesthetics and rarity are perfectly good reasons to pay more for a pen.

yes I agree, but at the same time I think I would be disappointed if I laid out on a Mont Blanc and it didn't write as well as my ebay parker 51.

 

But I am still buying pens as every day pens, and not yet reached the stage of buying pens on looks and rarity.

 

Graham

[MyriadStars]

First, it's just personal, but I do not want to buy a used pen.

 

Second, I prefer the look of a unhooded nib, since it looks more classic.

[OldGriz]

QUOTE (George @ Mar 2 2007, 02:54 PM)

A $2000 dollar empire set does NOT, let me repeat, NOT write better at all compared to a $5 vac from a flea market. The empire set I bought was not to use, but to have as a "collectors" item. It also looks better, but looks dont make the pen. If I was stranded on an island, i would rather have a flighter or a simple 51 then my empire set. Its what you like. I use a parker 51 aero on a daily basis, and i got it at a flea market. I love it. Oh yeah, a ultra rare 51 does NOT write better then a normal 51.

First let's be a bit realistic.... I have never seen, not heard of a $2000 Parker 51...

I guess, if it were one that you could actually prove did at one time belong to George Parker and had been used by him, it might exist... but I doubt other than that you are going to see anyone pay that kind of price even for a mint NIB First Year Double Jewel Mustard Yellow with an Arabic nib in the original box with over box (and I don't think you are going to get much rarer than that).

 

Price does not make a pen write better. Price might get you some OOH and AHH points amongst some collectors. But I doubt from a lot of us, as we are more likely to OOH and AHH over a sumgai than a high price. I have 51s that I purchased for under $30 and some I have paid more for... and other than the cap and overall condition (and in one case a factory stub nib) they all write the same after I restored them.

I happen to have a beautiful black DJ with a Sterling Cap... one of my favorite 51s, it does not write any better than my Grey, Lusterloy capped pen. If I were to sell both, you can bet there is going to be a big difference in price... but it will have nothing to do with how the pen writes.

My absolute best writing 51 is a Flighter that I absolutely stole on eBay (I know, what else is new), but it is the smoothest writing pen I own. And I am including my Pelikans with custom nibs in that comparison.

 

Of course for me a pen is a tool. That is what they were designed for and meant to accomplish. They are a tool for putting down a regulated amount of ink on paper so that the person using it can make their ideas known.

There are people who go nuts over that fact that some of us consider all pens as writers. They believe that certain pens should never ever be inked again, it will make them lose value. To those I say.. fine, have fun looking at your pens. I will have fun using mine, no matter what they cost me or what they might be valued at.

[rattybad1]

I have a 51 and it writes well, but I group it along with my Parker Vectors as a pen I wouldn't get upset about losing, in that it's got an unremarkable design and is blasé in terms of color and handling.

 

So in thinking about that, I guess I categorize my pens by how lose-able they are.

 

For one, there's the little pen holder that carries my pop-tops (like Vectors, a Pelikano, the 51) that I take with me away from my apartment because I'm unconcerned if they go missing. Then I have a few Esterbrooks, in their own class with the exception of a cheapo Eagle that has a similar look and feel. I'd hate to lose any of those but I know they're replaceable and not exactly the best pens anyway, just nice to own and write with now and then. After that I have my three Pelikans, which I like, and they look nice and write well, but I like them mostly because two were gifts, and the other is a Piccadilly Circus which looks awesome. I'd be frustrated if I lost them, especially the Piccadilly Circus, but in time I'd say "oh well" because in the final tally I'm not a Pelikan fan. After that I have my best pens, the larger ones, two Sailor 1911s (one MF, one Music) and a Visconti Opera (cherry blossom color) that are relatively expensive—for my collection at least—and they look nice (the all-yellow Sailor adds some dynamic color), and they each write fantastically well. If I lost those I would be somewhat devastated and probably have a hissy fit.

[myotis]

QUOTE (rattybad1 @ Mar 2 2007, 08:58 PM)

After that I have my best pens, the larger ones, two Sailor 1911s (one MF, one Music) and a Visconti Opera (cherry blossom color) that are relatively expensive—for my collection at least—and they look nice (the all-yellow Sailor adds some dynamic color), and they each write fantastically well. If I lost those I would be somewhat devastated and probably have a hissy fit.

An impression I have picked up from reading this forum is that the Sailor 911 could be in the running for being at the top of my writing quality hierarchy.

 

Graham

[goodguy]

Top place in my hierarchy takes MB 149.

Parker 51 is a great pen that I truly love and own never the less it isnt in the royal family.

The queen is the MB 149.

[myotis]

QUOTE (goodguy @ Mar 2 2007, 09:25 PM)

Top place in my hierarchy takes MB 149. Parker 51 is a great pen that I truly love and own never the less it isnt in the royal family.

Is this purely on writing quality, or are you including looks etc

 

[goodguy]

QUOTE (myotis @ Mar 2 2007, 09:46 PM)

QUOTE (goodguy @ Mar 2 2007, 09:25 PM) Top place in my hierarchy takes MB 149. Parker 51 is a great pen that I truly love and own never the less it isnt in the royal family. Is this purely on writing quality, or are you including looks etc Defenetly looks and feel.It wouldnt surprise me if a well tuned Parker 51 will write as good and maybe even better than a MB 149.

[MYU]

When talking about a hierarchy of pens based solely on writing quality (irrespective of price), it is subjective due to the varying needs of the writers. Some people have had nib trouble with Montblanc, while I have to say that I've never had a bad one (two of my Montblancs are at the top of the heap for writing quality--a broad stub Solitaire and an oblique broad stub 82).

 

Also, my Pilot/Namiki Raden VP has a nice semi-flexible medium nib that is simply one of the best mediums I've ever written with, for the price (Nakaya tops it). Even better than my Lamy 2000 (of which I have high regard--it just leaves a slightly wetter line than I'd like).

[rroossinck]

Ratty brings out a good point with respect to hierarchy.

 

For me, I think that I arrange the few that I have by their significance, both to me personally, as well as historically. My one and only Parker 51 (for right now, anyway...there's another in the mail as we speak) is a 1945 Dove Grey XF with a factory-correct gold-filled cap. After making the purchase at a local antique shop for $5, I put about $30 into restoring it, and then a little bartering to get the correct cap (thanks Jeremy!).

 

I will never get rid of it. Ever. Although it's not my favorite color combination, I will treasure it forever, because not only is it such a great writer (it is truly superb), it looks terrific, it's historically significant, and from a sentimental perspective, it was my first one, and my entry into vintage pens.

 

I'm the same way with my rOtring 600, which was the first fountain pen that I purchased...ever. It's 11 years old, and once I determine how to put the tines back in proper order (I jacked it up recently...woops), I'll resume using it. It's not my favorite, nor is it even all that phenomenal as a writer. However, it was the first one I ever bought (and $55 for a pen at that time was something that I was quite ashamed of and wouldn't tell anyone about for fear of their reaction).

 

Someday, I'll find another 75 Ciselle (I know I wouldn't have to look that hard) and it won't leave the collection either. It was the very first fountain pen I'd ever used. Found it in a public library when I was 13. Used it for a spell, and mysteriously, it vanished. I always swore I'd get another one someday.

 

I think that, as others have said, it's a personal thing.

 

If I ever inherit one from a relative, that one will be treasured, too.