Getting Started Re-Tipping Nibs...

[watch_art]

Why is it a good thing to keep all these things secret?

 

What if there were only two mechanics in the country? What if there were only two people who knew how to solder copper pipes and run lines under somebody's bathroom? An industry/hobby whatever, with only two people who know how to retip nibs is, in my opinion, stupid. Keeping those things secret is stupid. Being nasty and snarky to people asking questions about the methods and tools involved is STUPID.

 

Are they so afraid of competition? Really?

 

Gimme a break.

[chuckknight]

Why, exactly, would it not be a good thing for the developer of the process for making soda to keep that information a trade secret?

 

Ooh, I like you. You're very good.

 

The sale of the generic product of flavored soda water represents a market. By differentiating oneself within this market, through the use of various flavors and recipes, or even quality of ingredients (though this is less of an issue with soda), the entire market can be expanded for *all* the players.

 

Information has a tendency to escape, to spread, and to grow. Those who try to keep it *utterly* under wraps often end up on the wrong side of history, unable to parlay their early advantages into later market success. Your example of Coca Cola is actually quite a good one for you to use, as it is a company that *was* able to maintain its market position over time.

 

Back to nibs and tipping. The application of a tip to a nib could be accomplished in any number of ways. According to another thread, the accepted method is resistance-welding, which makes sense. Other options might include a number of modern adhesives, various forms of soldering or brazing, and even electrodeposition which might be my personal choice for a home workshop. That's the beauty of forums...the ability to publicly offer ideas, share knowledge and even theories, and discuss any number of subjects very openly.

 

The quote I included is from a professional who said, essentially, "I already know the answer, but I'm not going to share it with you. Neener, neener." Well, it came across as petty, and reflected rather poorly on him.

 

A more appropriate answer might have been "I know the answer, but am hesitant to give out the details." He could have said that he figured it out from information found at "this" link, and he would have come across as helpful, positive, and despite maintaining some level of secrecy about his specific "recipe," he might have been viewed more positively.

 

Especially considering that he, himself, made a similar request for information a few years ago.

[777]

Why is it a good thing to keep all these things secret?

 

What if there were only two mechanics in the country? What if there were only two people who knew how to solder copper pipes and run lines under somebody's bathroom? An industry/hobby whatever, with only two people who know how to retip nibs is, in my opinion, stupid. Keeping those things secret is stupid. Being nasty and snarky to people asking questions about the methods and tools involved is STUPID.

 

Are they so afraid of competition? Really?

 

Gimme a break.

 

I agree with you on this Shawn. I hope I didn't come across as saying that the "pros" should keep this all to themselves. I just (having been in this position myself) try to be sensitive to the fact that this might be someones only job. They've put hours of time into it, money, basically their life. Then someone comes along looking for a free ride.

 

It's like that one children's story, with the hen who bakes the loaf of bread. Everyone wants to eat it, but no one wants to do the research or work.

 

I enjoy sharing information and repair tips with people. Heck, I have an entire blog devoted to free repair tips for all to see. But there is a limit to that. If someone asks me how to smooth a nib - fine. I love helping people do some DIY repairs.

 

It really crosses the line for me when I can tell that the person is looking for a way out of a repair bill. I love helping people who want to repair pens for fun, cause they enjoy it. Wanting to save money is fine too. But when someone asks me to teach them how to repair a pen, from start to finish, and I can tell that they're just in it to save $$$, it does bother me a bit.

 

It'd be like this: You take your broken car into a mechanics shop, ask the mechanic to diagnose the problem. Then you ask him to write out for you exactly how to fix the problem, and where to get the parts for the best price. You ask him to print copies of his manuals and diagrams, and give them to you. Of course he wouldn't do it - you'd essentially be stealing from him. He has invested his time and money into learning his trade, and for someone to take that investment away for free would seem a bit rude to me.

 

To me, it's not a trade "secret". Anyone can learn pen repair, so long as their willing to learn and have a little natural talent.

 

To me it is however something that I've invested in. Because I've invested so much into it, it can be hard to give it away so freely, sometimes.

 

Hope that makes sense. Let me know if I am coming across the wrong way - I don't want people to misunderstand me...

 

Regards,

Tyler Dahl

[777]

One last thing folks - I noticed this thread is getting a bit heated. Let's please keep it kind and considerate. It has been a very informative thread, and I don't want to see it closed.

Thanks.

[FarmBoy]

One last thing folks - I noticed this thread is getting a bit heated. Let's please keep it kind and considerate. It has been a very informative thread, and I don't want to see it closed.

Thanks.

It takes quite a bit of heat to fuse Platinum group metals to gold and I don't think we are close yet. In the case of nib tipping a little heat is good.

 

And once again, I do wish anyone that wants to get into the nib-tipping business success. I just don't see the business model that makes financial sense.

 

Farmboy

[inkthefinks]

Asking for information is one thing, asking for hand-holding is quite another.

 

I hate the idea of a "secret skill"... if someone wants to learn, there should at least be sufficient documentation to get started. In the pen world, that isn't always there, especially for the advanced stuff...

 

Where's the manualon re-tipping? If one has not been written, I think that it is perfectly reasonable to wish that there was one. Asking John or Greg to sit on the phone while you try it, for free? Not so reasonable...

[Bill Wood]

I just have to point out that once Greg and John pass into the next life (hopefully no time soon mind you) there will still be fountain pen nibs that need fixing. These two gentlemen must not be the last people brave enough to take on this challenge.

 

777 is a very young man aspiring to the likes of John Mottishaw. It's one thing to warn him of the perils of learning to do this, but it is quite another to try to persuade him not to do it. Clearly, he has made up his mind. Now is the time to help him if you can/will and wish him luck as he undertakes the challenge!

 

 

Thank you. That was very well put. This is exactly what I am trying to get across. That's why I call myself part of the next generation of pen repairers!

 

Greg Minuskin, John Mottishaw, Michael Masuyama, Richard Binder, Pendleton Brown, etc. - None of these great guys are immortal, or ageless. They will all eventually have to discontinue work, for one reason or another. Who will re-tip nibs when they're gone? Who will grind nibs? Who will repair pens PROPERLY?

 

Someone has to. And I intend to be one of those people who continue this timeless tradition. I sincerely hope there is a "next-generation" of FP users for me to assist.

 

On another note - I'm looking into those classes on electrical-laser welding. The guy teaches how to do a lot of stuff that would work great applied to re-tipping nibs.

 

Antique - I applaud your ingenuity. I have often asked myself who are the future fountain pen repair experts - actually there are a few out there who can do a good job of repair - but it still is an open market. Just a suggestion meant in a very humble way. How bout' starting repairs and alterations on steel, and gold carat nibs and work your way up from there. My thinking is that there are people obviously who re-tip nibs. Re-tipping in my mind is always something that is done "out there" somewhere - a very, very specialized field. Your talents might be justly served by becoming a very, very good nib adjuster. I believe there is room in the market for that.

 

Here's an example. I make golf clubs - match shafts to frequencies, weigh them, tailor them for people. I do not pour the metal for the heads - that's done "out there somewhere".

 

Still I do applaud your interest in this science. And I do think that's what it is - a science.

[watch_art]

I have friends who knew old jewelers who used to do retips using open flame - but they've passed on or retired and those sources are gone. I met a guy in town who says he'll give it a try... we'll see (fingers crossed).

[FarmBoy]

I hate the idea of a "secret skill"... if someone wants to learn, there should at least be sufficient documentation to get started. In the pen world, that isn't always there, especially for the advanced stuff...

Here in Silicon Valley we call "secret skill" Intellectual Property (IP).

 

I can assure you that like the wheel, technology related to transistors, batteries, and solar cells has been invented more than once, and often by companies across the street. The reality is people/companies don't figure out how to do something then write a manual on how to do it and give the ability/knowledge away for free. (We can debate the entire Xerox PARC experience as the exception to the rule if you want.)

 

I do not know how long it took Greg, John, or any of the others that know how to retip nibs, to learn the skill. I do know they are unlikely to just pop up a YouTube video anytime soon.

 

While on this subject, I have a killer W-E adjustable nib that needs tipping. Anyone want a crack at it?

 

Farmboy

[inkthefinks]

Here in Silicon Valley we call "secret skill" Intellectual Property (IP).

 

I don't follow. Anyone who wants to can learn computer programming, hardware design, etc... actual code or schematics may be highly guarded IP, but anyone can learn the fundamentals. C programming, for example, is a skill set, not someone's IP...

 

I can assure you that like the wheel, technology related to transistors, batteries, and solar cells has been invented more than once, and often by companies across the street. The reality is people/companies don't figure out how to do something then write a manual on how to do it and give the ability/knowledge away for free. (We can debate the entire Xerox PARC experience as the exception to the rule if you want.)

 

This is certainly a good point, but we aren't talking about new technology here. People have known how to re-tip nibs for decades, it's just a lost art of sorts. Is someone going to patent their process or something?

 

I do not know how long it took Greg, John, or any of the others that know how to retip nibs, to learn the skill. I do know they are unlikely to just pop up a YouTube video anytime soon.

 

I am sure that you are correct, but how would this actually hurt them? For someone to compete, they would not only have to watch the video and spend thousands on the equipment, but also spend years developing the actual skills...right?

 

Are you telling me that anyone with the money could be re-tipping like a pro overnight, if not for these folks keeping trade secrets?

 

(Edit: I bet we could debate the GNU/Linux philosophy, too...

Edited December 20, 2011 by inkthefinks

[Ron Z]

Here in Silicon Valley we call "secret skill" Intellectual Property (IP).

 

Exactly.

 

For someone to compete, they would not only have to watch the video and spend thousands on the equipment, but also spend years developing the actual skills...right?

 

But the lack of a skill set hasn't prevented many from deciding that they are qualified, when in fact they have a very long way to go.

[inkthefinks]

But the lack of a skill set hasn't prevented many from deciding that they are qualified, when in fact they have a very long way to go.

 

Couldn't they do this anyway, with or without good information to start with? I guess I'm just not seeing why it would be necessary to keep this sort of thing as a trade secret, given the years of experience it would take to actually do it well.

 

For example: You can buy the service manual for most any car, anyone can take classes in automotive repair... yet mechanics remain in business. What am I missing here?

 

I must continue to agree with watch_art:

An industry/hobby whatever, with only two people who know how to retip nibs is, in my opinion, stupid. Keeping those things secret is stupid. Being nasty and snarky to people asking questions about the methods and tools involved is STUPID.

 

Count me among those who hope that Nathan Tardiff will make good on his promise and take out some of the smoke and mirrors on this topic.

 

PS: Thanks to all for the conversation!

Edited December 20, 2011 by inkthefinks

[MarcShiman]

All you need to do is go over to Richard's site, and see the amount of information he has generously donated to the public domain to begin to understand the value of sharing the techniques of his craftsmanship.

 

Does revealing his secrets injure his business? I would say just the opposite - it enhances his reputation as a repairman and probably generates even more business.

 

Craftsmanship is not the same as a secret coca-cola formula. People give business to craftsmen not because of how they do it, but because of how well they do it. I've sat across from Mike Masuyama at pen shows for hours, and I still send him my pens regularly.

 

Tyler, if you retip pens well, you will get business regardless if you write The Dummies Guide to Retipping Pens afterwards. In fact, the perception of your expertise will likely be enhanced.

 

Marc

[koa]

As I think (thunk?) I said earlier in this thread, knowledge is not the same as skill. But I don't really see why. What is it that the skillful know that the knowledgeable do not? That is the difference between skill and a trade secret? So, Watch this!@

[FarmBoy]

I had forgotten about this thread, in fact I thought it had disappeared.

 

IP (Intellectual Property) is owned by an entity. If you develop IP you are free to share it with anyone you like, even if it is prior knowledge. In the case of nib retipping the two (or three) people that have the IP have chosen not to share it at this time. This is in line with the two companies I worked with already this year that required me to sign NDAs regarding certain aspects of their IP. In one instance I was able to observe that the IP they are protecting would be considered 'Prior Knowledge' by several companies although I doubt it is 'Common Knowledge'.

 

I should note that to the best of my knowledge none of the people that do retipping participate here. I know one (and perhaps a second?) did but he has been absent for some time. Interesting story if you know the "IP" behind it I'm sure.

 

Wanting to know how to do retipping is not what I see as the issue. I don't see a discussion of how to do retipping as the issue. I don't even see asking how retipping is done as the issue. What I see is a perception that there is a responsibility of those that know the skill to teach it to anyone that wants to know how as the issue. Sort of like saying 'I have a right to be taught how to retip nibs' and implying that those with the knowledge and ability should do so for free. The road to being a Nibmeister (if there is such a thing), weather you do retipping or not, is not as short as buying a nib block and a burnisher and grinding a few nibs. It is also not a title you give yourself.

 

Lets take another example of IP from someone reading this thread. Parker VP Fillers. Ron (Main Street Pens) has taken the time to design, draw, document, and produce a replacement part that commonly fails. Ron has posted images, discussed the part, and offers them for sale. I have not seen a drawing or step by step instructions on how they are made or a discussion of the design process and tooling used to produce them. In fact I've not even seen anyone ask for a drawing. I am sure there are many here that given a measured drawing could reproduce the part. I think it would be absurd to ask for the drawing but if Ron wishes to publish it that is his choice, the IP belongs to Main Street Pens.

 

While I know of no apprenticeship openings, I sure if someone wanted to move to Southern California and take up a residence in a pen repair shop and work for essentially free, you could develop an opportunity to gain the knowledge you desire. I believe Ron also mentioned something similar to this with respect to his efforts to find an apprentice in a post somewhere here.

 

I'm sure this thread will get interesting and my apologies in advance if I've misrepresented any one I've mentioned.

[79spitfire]

I don't think you have misrepresented anything. I see this in the GNU/Linux 'community' all the time. The idea that there is no personal property or intellectual or otherwise is very annoying.

 

There is nothing stopping anyone from taking a class in jewelery making or micro welding and then experimenting from there. The mechanics of what is being done is no secret, the technique of doing it is. The idea that someone else is obligated to divulge the benefit of years of experience for free, by force, to me, is offensive.

 

If someone decided to divulge the information on their own, by their own choice, that would be different.

 

The best of luck to anyone who tries it. There are plenty of example of nibs with broken tips out there that need rescuing!

[777]

Farmboy and 79spitfire,

 

Couldn't have put it any better myself.

[watch_art]

The idea that someone else is obligated to divulge the benefit of years of experience for free, by force, to me, is offensive.

 

 

When did this happen?

[79spitfire]

The idea that someone else is obligated to divulge the benefit of years of experience for free, by force, to me, is offensive.

 

 

When did this happen?

It's the 'idea'...

[koa]

The idea that someone else is obligated to divulge the benefit of years of experience for free, by force, to me, is offensive.

 

 

When did this happen?

It's the 'idea'...

Ve haf wais of makin yu talk!