Getting Started Re-Tipping Nibs...

[travberg]

Ask your self why John M. and Greg M. are the only TWO people who offer Re-tipping. Hint: It is not just the welding, you have to split the weld and still have it hold for ink to flow!

 

I have been doing business with John M. for twenty years and Greg M. for over ten. It is difficult and time consuming. I just got back my custom made Ariel Kullock 51 with a Greg Minuskin special stub nib this week. I was happy to pay Greg's re-tip charge! I also have one of his music nibs on a 51.

 

777 I wish you well and if you can Master Re-tipping, I think you will find that it is time consuming and hardly worth what you are paid. Hope you have a horse, a lance, and find your Windmill.

[FarmBoy]

If you want to learn how to do it CORRECTLY, my best advice is to try to get an apprenticeship with John Mottishaw in LA or Greg Minuskin ( also somewhere in Calif.). They are the only 2 folks I know who know how to retip reliably, and John trained Greg I am told.

 

Uh...does that mean Richard doesn't retip, or simply that he doesn't do it reliably?

I don't know that it means anything particular but I suspect Richard concentrates on pen repair and contracts his nib work to someone else.

 

Greg is in Tustin CA. Very close to LA.

 

Sorry, but you are wrong.... with the exception of retipping a nib, Richard DOES ALL the rest of the nib work along with pen repair work... how do you think he got the title of nibmeister.

If you have ever been to a pen show where Richard is present you will see that all he does at a show is nib work (regrinding, reshaping, tuning), he does not do any pen repair work at shows...

Ron Zorn is generally at the table next to Richard and he is doing pen repairs.

Yes I meant to imply that he did not do retipping. I do know he does nib work.

 

I have been to many pen shows.

 

In fact I am fairly certain I know who does his retipping and I didn't feel it necessary to say.

 

I also know that Ron and Richard coordinate what they do at shows so as to not to compete.

 

I will be more explicit in what I say next time.

 

My apologies to all.

 

Regards

 

Farmboy (Todd)

Edited August 20, 2011 by FarmBoy

[hari317]

Nathan Tardiff's retips were quite famous when I joined FPN. Exotic muti slit music nibs, Harpoon nibs etc. Is he no longer doing retips?

[watch_art]

Nathan Tardiff's retips were quite famous when I joined FPN. Exotic muti slit music nibs, Harpoon nibs etc. Is he no longer doing retips?

 

Not that I know of - but I bet if Tyler 777 could get together with the Tardiff machine then he could learn a few things. Hey Tyler - hook up with Nathan, one way or another, by hook or by crook (line from Hook), and you may get some tips on tipping (HA!) that set you on your way.

 

Good luck.

[koa]

C'mon, people! Re-tipping is not rocket science! It is just bonding dissimilar metals, both very costly and one that doesn't melt easily, on a very small scale. I'm sure anyone could do it, with enough time and practice, and money, and more time and practice. :ph34r:

[AltecGreen]

Thank you. That was very well put. This is exactly what I am trying to get across. That's why I call myself part of the next generation of pen repairers!

 

Greg Minuskin, John Mottishaw, Michael Masuyama, Richard Binder, Pendleton Brown, etc. - None of these great guys are immortal, or ageless. They will all eventually have to discontinue work, for one reason or another. Who will re-tip nibs when they're gone? Who will grind nibs? Who will repair pens PROPERLY?

 

Someone has to. And I intend to be one of those people who continue this timeless tradition. I sincerely hope there is a "next-generation" of FP users for me to assist.

 

On another note - I'm looking into those classes on electrical-laser welding. The guy teaches how to do a lot of stuff that would work great applied to re-tipping nibs.

 

 

Tyler,

 

You seem to have enough conviction so let me give you some advice. The first piece may seem harsh but it is honest.

 

Right now, you do not have the pre-requisite knowledge base to attempt re-tipping. You do not have the foundation knowledge to even start and have a chance of success. I base this on the various comments and question you have been asking. This is ok.

 

The first step is to build your knowledge base. You have to crawl before you walk. Walk before you run and run before you fly.

 

So I would recommend before taking the courses on welding to take a class in basic machining. Even if you don't do any machining in the future, the class with teach you about tools for precision work, a way of thinking about precision work, measuring techniques, materials, etc. If you are serious about being a professional pen repairer/restorer, you will want to learn to use a lathe.

 

 

As for re-tipping, here is some advice.

 

1) tipping material-someone provided a link for buying tipping material. This is one way. I did a little calculation and the material cost is less than $1 for the size tipping on that website for pure iridium ($155 for 2g).

 

I've made such pellets before using an arc furnace. I figure with a custom hearth designed for tipping pellets, I could make 90-100 pellets in an hour. The cost of the equipment is pretty high and some of it will need to be custom made. I can break down the process if you want. I estimate $3k to $10k depending on how much it costs to buy the welding supply and make the mods. A small supply will not work because the tipping material consists of almost entirely on refractory metals. You will also need 240 VAC single phase power or 3-phase power. Most homes do come equipped with such power.

 

Alternatively, there are companies that can make the pellets for order but you will have to buy a large quantity before anyone will do the work. Think thousands of dollars. So buying tipping at $5 is not so bad. Unfortunately, no selection in pellet size.

 

The advantage of doing it yourself is that you can some up with your own recipe for the tipping alloy. You can buy the raw metal sponge from places like Alfa Aesar, Goodfellows, ESPI, etc. The drawback is that unless you make a lot, it is a major money losing proposition. BTW-ESPI would probably make the pellets for a price.

 

 

2) The actual re-tipping can be done in a number of ways. Resistance welding seems to be the traditional way. Laser welding, electron beam welding, rf induction heat can all probably work too. With resistance welding, you will need a spot welding supply that can supply enough current. I'll need to do a calculation but based on the numbers quoted in the previous thread, I suspect you will need a good sized supply with some control on the current. A manufacturer can dial in their process and leave it set for production. A re-tipper will need to be flexible. The trick is making the proper fixture for holding the nib and pellet in the right way. You will have to experiment with the current profile. This is where there is a lot of black art and secrets. Either you spend time developing your own technique or learn from someone.

 

Laser welding works but laser welders are not cheap. Quality laser welders used by jewelers run around $18k new. They also need a gas supply, water supply, etc. Don't even ask about electron beam welding. These things do come up used but bear in mind that the resistance welding supplies will be easier to maintain than a laser. High power lasers need tuning after a certain number of hours and this cost is not cheap. The process with beam welding is different than resistance welding so the fixturing will be different.

 

The fixturing will all have to be custom made. This is where knowing how to machine helps. Machining it yourself saves a lot of money.

 

3) cutting the slit - This is straight forward but not cheap. There are a number of ways to do this but my first inclination is to use a precision sectioning saw. These are used all the time in materials research. You can find discount saws for about $1K but these seem really fly by night. I recommend a Buehler sectioning saw with a 4" diamond blade. The Isomet 1000 would be what I would start with. The built-in micrometer and goniometer will be useful in positioning the nib. You will have to develop the technique for setting up the nib for the cut.

 

 

At the end of the day, $25K is not an unreasonable price for a full set-up. Could you try to cut corners? Sure. The battery thing might work. It also might be your ticket to Darwin award fame. Could you build you own welding supply? yes. That's a different thread. Can you cut the slit manually with a hand saw? Maybe but your kerf will be a bit large. How reproducible? Who knows.

[UltraMagnus]

With resistance welding, you will need a spot welding supply that can supply enough current.

I have seen people weld sterling silver with a commercial spot welder, variac and a timer switch. The problem isn't having enough current, it is having too much.

[koa]

While I appreciate AltecGreen's realistic appraisal of potential machinery costs, I am not convinced that such industrial grade stuff is necessary. Of course, I have never tipped a nib, and most of my metalworking has been in iron and steel, which is probably not applicable. Grounding in the basics of metalwork is important, so the advice given so far is on the mark.

 

But: I remember seeing a TV program from Japan where an aged craftsman demonstrated the process of re-tipping a nib. As I remember (and this may have been some time ago), he placed a iridium pellet on a graphite block, and attached the nib to the other lead of the power source (no idea how much or what) and by touching the nib to the pellet welded them together. Then he recut the slit through the pellet with a micro-saw (hand-held, again if I recall correctly), and then shaped and polished. Of course, Japanese craftsmen with years of experience can do things that a novice can't, which is why they have an apprentice system.

 

Darwin award? I hardly think someone, even 777, could Darwin themselves with a car battery. Now lasers, them is dangerous. However, I don't remember any nib having a warning that there were no user serviceable parts, and that the work should be left to trained professionals on a closed track. Gotta start somewhere.

 

[edited to add: and of course, it is not a weld, which implies similiar metals. More of a braze? ]

Edited August 20, 2011 by koa

[AltecGreen]

With resistance welding, you will need a spot welding supply that can supply enough current.

I have seen people weld sterling silver with a commercial spot welder, variac and a timer switch. The problem isn't having enough current, it is having too much.

 

 

A commercial spot welder has enough current for the job. One can certainly have too much current. It depends on the material and geometry. This is where the black art happens. It is not just the amount of current but the shape of the pulse (i.e. how the current is applied as a function of time), how to create the right contact between the nib and pellet, etc. I used to spot weld Pt-Rh thermocouples wires together to make a junction. If you did it wrong sometimes, it would blow the whole junction. Other times, it wouldn't weld completely.

 

As a side note. Pure silver has a melting point of 961 C. Sterling silver is an alloy and in this case melts at a ~893 C. In comparison, the typical metals used in tipping (Ir, Os, Re, Ru, Pt, Pd,etc.) all have melting temperatures well above 1500 C with a few like Ir and Ru in the range of 2400-2500 C. The latent heat of silver is also significantly lower than the refractory metals (about a factor of two). The melting temperature of silver is low enough that I once made silver sweat from a sample of YBCO because I let it get too hot. That was exciting.

 

Of course for re-tipping, the nib itself is likely to melt first. It's not clear at what temperature you achieve a reaction to join the two metallic systems. Just checking a few binary phase diagrams, metals like Ir and Os have exceedingly small solubility in molten gold at temperatures below 1000 C. Metallurgy is a fascinating subject area.

[AltecGreen]

While I appreciate AltecGreen's realistic appraisal of potential machinery costs, I am not convinced that such industrial grade stuff is necessary. Of course, I have never tipped a nib, and most of my metalworking has been in iron and steel, which is probably not applicable. Grounding in the basics of metalwork is important, so the advice given so far is on the mark.

 

But: I remember seeing a TV program from Japan where an aged craftsman demonstrated the process of re-tipping a nib. As I remember (and this may have been some time ago), he placed a iridium pellet on a graphite block, and attached the nib to the other lead of the power source (no idea how much or what) and by touching the nib to the pellet welded them together. Then he recut the slit through the pellet with a micro-saw (hand-held, again if I recall correctly), and then shaped and polished. Of course, Japanese craftsmen with years of experience can do things that a novice can't, which is why they have an apprentice system.

 

Darwin award? I hardly think someone, even 777, could Darwin themselves with a car battery. Now lasers, them is dangerous. However, I don't remember any nib having a warning that there were no user serviceable parts, and that the work should be left to trained professionals on a closed track. Gotta start somewhere.

 

 

I certainly believe the story of the Japanese craftsman. The actual process of re-tipping isn't that magical. In principle, you connect everything up to the power source and zap. The power source was probably a welding supply. The trick again is knowing the right power setting on the source. The other trick is knowing how to hold and touch the nib to the pellet. I'm sure the Japanese gentleman spent years learning his craft and has perfected each movement. In my earlier post, this is the same process I described except I envisioned a custom fixture rather than using one's hands. I did say that hand cutting was possible. Although a precision saw makes it easy to repeat each cut.

 

I only discussed the other possible ways like a laser welder because some else brought it up earlier. There are many ways to do the job. These other methods are much more reliant on technology and thus expensive. Although a laser welder has other potential uses for other types of nib repair that might make it a worthy investment if you can find one used.

 

This brings up an interesting cultural bias. I immediately went to the western paradigm partly because I'm a scientist and I have done each of these processes before albeit in a different context. But in Japan, you see craftsman doing things that would be done using precision machinery. Mr. Matsubara at Nakaya and the craftsman at Hakase turn pen barrels using foot driven lathes while in the west, machine lathes and now CNC machines are used. Quite a contrast.

 

The only process that I cannot see being done simply is making the tipping material.

 

Based on the account of the Japanese craftsmen, it would seem that an easy test could be set-up. One needs to rent a spot welder, get a piece of graphite, and order the tipping material from the website given above, some cabling, a microsaw and bingo that would be the cheapest way to re-tip. I believe this will work but I think this is far more difficult than it sounds.

[777]

AltecGreen - Thank you for the advice. It is much appreciated!

 

I do need to do a lot of research, and studying. Machining is something I already wanted to learn, so a class on that is most likely in my near future. Same with welding. It would be a great skill to know for many things.

 

This is going to take a long time, a lot of patience, determination, and some money too. But, I've set my mind on it! There's nothing that can truly stop me now!

 

Keep the advice coming guys, and wish me luck on this one. It's gonna be the hardest repair I've ever learned...

[opus7600]

On the less sciency-side of the issue, you could consider setting up a kickstarter project to help you buy the equipment. Rewards for backers at various pledge levels could be "x free retip and grind" jobs, where x scales up with the donation.

[viclip]

I just finished reading the officially published book "A History of the Firm Montblanc: Meisterstucke for the Art of Writing". It was put out by Montblanc themselves, I would guess around 1990. Anyways on page 74 the tipping attachment is briefly described as follows:

 

"A tiny ball of extremely hard metal ... is bound with the gold by resistance welding. In the process, it sinks into the gold and receives a coating of gold over half its surface, which is partly ground away later."

 

It seems that the current applied is thus just enough to melt the surface of the nib (lower melting point) where it meets the tipping material (higher melting point). Effectively the gold of the nib is being used as a solder to adhere the tipping material onto itself. This would make sense due to the far higher melting point of the tipping material i.e. by the time its melting point were reached the adjoining gold nib would be a molten pool (if not vaporized).

 

I suspect that this is where the black box mystery comes into play in terms of attaining the requisite precise temperature setting which softens the gold just right for the tipping material to become embedded therein.

[travberg]

AltecGreen - Thank you for the advice. It is much appreciated!

 

I do need to do a lot of research, and studying. Machining is something I already wanted to learn, so a class on that is most likely in my near future. Same with welding. It would be a great skill to know for many things.

 

This is going to take a long time, a lot of patience, determination, and some money too. But, I've set my mind on it! There's nothing that can truly stop me now!

 

Keep the advice coming guys, and wish me luck on this one. It's gonna be the hardest repair I've ever learned...

[travberg]

777, Just so you fully understand, it took John M., 20 plus years to get where his skills are today. Greg M. is a Swiss trained watch MAKER, not a watch repairman, then he worked for John M. for several years.

 

Over the last 20 years, I have known many talented people who have made pens, none of them have followed through with their plans to do re-tipping.

 

Best wishes, but make sure you are not the dog that actually catches up with the car he is chasing.

[OcalaFlGuy]

I have a couple more thoughts on this.

 

(And I am not trying to dissuade Tyler from doing this, just maybe pointing out other not so visible angles perhaps.)

 

It seems relevant to me if I am correct (and of course, I ALWAYS think I am ) that I don't think John and Greg consider themselves pen repairmen per se, but much more nib technicians. While they do some repair type work related to removing and refitting nibs, I think they consider themselves primarily nib men so to speak.

 

There is probably good reason for that.

 

Both pen repair and nib work are both very specialized (though related of course) areas. The time, effort and dedication required to do EITHER one WELL is formidable. Jim Baer has been apprenticing under Richard for about 3 years now and I doubt if you asked him, he feels he is ready yet to "strike it out on his own" as a full pen repair/nib grinder. (And he certainly isn't about to add retipping to his repertoire I don't think.)

 

You don't see any neurosurgeons that also have offices as general practitioners, why? One reason may be because the time and effort to become an expert at one of those doesn't leave sufficient time and effort to become an equal expert in both.

 

Look at our smart phones we have today. We're no longer happy with them doing just what they were originally intended to do, make or receive a phone call. We want them to do EVERYTHING. Now. Where has that gotten us? It's gotten us phones that do alot of functions (somewhat) adequately but Not a phone that EXCELS in ALL those areas. (Even worse yet are that some of them do those adequate jobs of many functions but actually AREN'T as good At Their Primary Function of being a telephone as some of the older less accessorized models.)

 

Could one be an *adequate* repairmen AND an *adequate* nib retipper/grinder? Possibly. However, to EXCEL at both of them is a fuller plate that I think would be alot harder to make it through.

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL-there is though something to be said for the personal motivation of being told "it can't be done"

[watch_art]

I politely disagree but it's still a pretty good point. Greg M might be a nib man - more specialized as you put it - but I think he can do pretty much anything to or with a nib that would ever be needed. He's a plastic surgeon and a general practitioner at the same time. I think the reason that most nib guys don't get into it is the up front expense. I'm probably wrong since I have no idea what I'm talking about - but it seems like, if even the great El Zorno doesn't want to mess with

Posted 29 September 2009 - 09:48 PM

I know enough about retipping nibs that I am quite willing and content to let someone else do it.

that it's just a big enough pain in the butt that it's a better use of their time to send these types of jobs off.

 

My mechanic can rebuild an engine - but it's cheaper to throw in a new/used engine. If he needs to do head work or something else that's more specialized or requires lots of machining, he sends it off. It's just cheaper and doesn't take his time away from other jobs where he could be making money quicker and easier.

Edited August 20, 2011 by watch_art

[FarmBoy]

777, Just so you fully understand, it took John M., 20 plus years to get where his skills are today. Greg M. is a Swiss trained watch MAKER, not a watch repairman, then he worked for John M. for several years.

 

Over the last 20 years, I have known many talented people who have made pens, none of them have followed through with their plans to do re-tipping.

 

Best wishes, but make sure you are not the dog that actually catches up with the car he is chasing.

What exactly happened to that dog?

 

For what it is worth I've often thought about this as a project. In fact Ricky and I have discussed it many times and we have the resources to do it. It usually boils down to we have other projects to work on and we don't have a pressing need for retips. Not to say there is not a need for retipping services, just that we don't have a need.

 

On equipment. I would invest in a good lathe capable of threading before I would invest in retipping equipment. The number of times I need a lathe far out numbers the nibs I see that need retipping. The other item you should have first is a nib block. If you can find one, you want one of the nib blocks that was produced by John M.

[dfurlano]

I tried calling these guys but they really had no information. But there are a few clues in the article about cutting slits.

 

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20090612082321/http://www.innomech.co.uk/case.htm

[dfurlano]

From this website (maybe this is you?) http://www.natscience.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/laser/4241/Welding-fountain-pen-nibs

 

Hi Tom,

 

my profession is jeweller and I do laserwelding, platinum, where

iridium belongs to, is quite easy to weld or to melt, pulsed YAG at

1064nm works well. For what your friend needs, it might work to create

the ball in the same moment welding to the nib. Imagine a wire of

iridium perpendicular held to the nib, the wire slight protruding a

bit. If you hit the end of the wire with a pulse a half ball forms. Cut

the wire and form the other half of the ball. Adjust energy, so the

ball forms well, use argon as protective gas.

Pulse energy smaller and up to 5 joule should work.

Most small laser welders used in jewellery go up to 50 joule, that's

more than enough for your friends need. Btw, also dental laboratories

use these lasers, your friend can try to get help for his experiments

there.

 

Ludwig