Fact or legend?

[Daniel7]

Hi all,

 

While discussing lately with my father, on the Montblanc fountain pens, we spoke about the quality of the pen in the past and the value people set on the MBs in the past, i.e. not the hype but the real intrinsic quality of the pen/brand compared to Parkers etc...

At a certain point, my father mentioned, that even if he never saw one, it seemed that Montblanc produced for the high ranked nazi's and important guests of the regime, a serie of Montblanc pen where the star was replaced by the swastika. Now my dad said he never saw one, but at the end of the war when the GIs freed Luxembourg, one which was hosted at his parents house, was member of the squad who kept Göering before going to the Nurnberg trial and the GI said he saw one and that a mate kept it as a souvenir.

MY question is, is it true or just a legend?

 

Cheers,

 

 

daniel

[asimplemaestro]

Hi all,

 

While discussing lately with my father, on the Montblanc fountain pens, we spoke about the quality of the pen in the past and the value people set on the MBs in the past, i.e. not the hype but the real intrinsic quality of the pen/brand compared to Parkers etc...

At a certain point, my father mentioned, that even if he never saw one, it seemed that Montblanc produced for the high ranked nazi's and important guests of the regime, a serie of Montblanc pen where the star was replaced by the swastika. Now my dad said he never saw one, but at the end of the war when the GIs freed Luxembourg, one which was hosted at his parents house, was member of the squad who kept Göering before going to the Nurnberg trial and the GI said he saw one and that a mate kept it as a souvenir.

MY question is, is it true or just a legend?

 

Cheers,

 

 

daniel

 

I have also been curious about this but could find little information. Good question.

[evgeny0ukr]

I never heard of it but "swastika" instead of Montblanc star - sounds like a legend to me

[yachtsilverswan]

I believe I have read that during WWII Montblanc made some pens with round circle logos, rather than their six pointed star, because of the star logo's vague similarity to the six-pointed Star of David. I believe I read that this same round circle logo was used on some pens marketed in Arab countries.

 

But I have never head of Montblanc using a Swastika.

[teebo]

I believe I have read that during WWII Montblanc made some pens with round circle logos, rather than their six pointed star, because of the star logo's vague similarity to the six-pointed Star of David. I believe I read that this same round circle logo was used on some pens marketed in Arab countries.

 

But I have never head of Montblanc using a Swastika.

 

 

There is currently a Monte Rosa Diplomat Number 1 on eBay with this round white circle. I too was wondering about this as It is not marked Montblanc but is advertised as and early Montblanc piece. I believe the auction was from the Czech or Bulgaria.

 

Todd

[asimplemaestro]

Recently read that Montblanc does make different versions to sell in some Middle Eastern countries. This was for the purpose of removing the star which was thought to resemble the Star of David (a traditionally Jewish symbol).

 

Heres that auction btw.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/MONTE-ROSA-DIPLOMAT-1-...93%3A1|294%3A50

[RevAaron]

I've been wondering about the MB star during the NSDAP era in general... I mean, it isn't just similar to the Star of David- it's a six pointed star with the same geometry, though it is a little more bloated. I just can't imagine NSDAP party members walking around with big white symbols of Judaism in their pockets.

 

But I'm not a 1930s German man- like the swastika, the six-pointed star was used by various companies and organizations as a logo. Maybe it was less of an automatic symbol of Judaism, seen by most folks as a symbol the Jews also kept as theirs, but not exclusively. Not to imply exclusivity now, but as an almost 30 American, I've grown up in a world where the six-pointed star is only representative of a few things- Judaism, the Crips, and certain ideas in some forms of esotericism.

 

I could see the six-pointed star as being more charged in the Middle East during the 30s-50s, with a less developed consumeristic society, where symbols are fewer and more important.

 

OK, rambling out!

[QM2]

All German companies manufactured products for the nazis during the war, and there is no reason to think MB was an exception.

There were no "swastika MBs" though, that is an urban legend as far as I know.

[niksch]

All German companies manufactured products for the nazis during the war, and there is no reason to think MB was an exception.

There were no "swastika MBs" though, that is an urban legend as far as I know.

 

I agree with this, and tend to believe it is legend because if there were MBs with the swatstika on them, I would think we would have seen them in documentation.

 

Juergen Kuehse auctioned on eBay several years ago a 149 that had a triangle in place of the star and mentioned that the triangle was used for the Arab markets. I did not win that auction, and regret it now.

 

As an interesting piece of history, the swastika was on the unit insignia and shoulder patch of the 45th Infantry Division prior to WWII. After the rise of the National Socialist Party in Germany (and the use of that symbol), the insignia was changed to reflect another American Indian symbol, the Thunderbird. It remains so today.

 

 

 

Eric

 

 

 

[RevAaron]

The swastika was used in many places before the NSDAP sullied its image. Native Americans, pre-industrial western animists, post-industrial western occultists, Buddhists, Hindus, and probably a slew of other religions/philosophies used it. It was also a good luck symbol, like the four leaf clover. If you ever go to the Corn Palace in SD, you'll see an old Corn Palace with some big swastikas emblazoned on the turrets of the Palace. It isn't a big deal.

 

I think QM2 hit the nail on the head.

 

Next week, we'll have this discussion about one of the various German companies that use an eagle in their logo or nib imprint, or a faded Kaweco imprint as being of the Nazis. That comes up often enough too.

[Darius]

I have heard before of the MBs with the white dots instead of the stars. They were made to promote marketing in Saudi Arabia, not anymore though. Which does not make sense to me. Even if the star resembels the Star of David, it shouldn't be a problem. David, peace be upon him, is a prophet of God in Islam as much as he is a prophet in Judaism and Christianity.

 

I read in the Lawsuit threa about the swastika on MBs. This is the second thread to mention them.

[CarolinaWriter]

It's my understanding that the Nazi party had reversed the direction of the arms. I have a beaded evening bag that belonged to my great-great grandmother that has the symbol on it.

 

Also, I have a Monte Rosa that has the snowflake "outlined" instead of filled in. Is this usual for the Monte Rosas?

[QM2]

Also, I have a Monte Rosa that has the snowflake "outlined" instead of filled in. Is this usual for the Monte Rosas?

 

Yup, very much. Some were made without snowcaps, others with just the outline.

It was the economy model.

[RevAaron]

Which does not make sense to me. Even if the star resembels the Star of David, it shouldn't be a problem. David, peace be upon him, is a prophet of God in Islam as much as he is a prophet in Judaism and Christianity.

 

Palestine.

 

There was an explosion of Jewish immigration to Palestine during the 1930s, and the Arab worlds was no more interested

 

1922 83,790

1931 174,606

1941 474,102

1946 608,225

 

The implication isn't that Muslims has any distaste for David or his Star, but for what it represents- Judaism, but more specifically Zionism. It's also been (and still) used as a symbol for the Zionism movement, especially during the 20s, 30s and 40s- it is the symbol of the Israeli State. It doesn't seem wise to be marketing a pen emblazoned with the symbol of the growing movement to establish a Jewish state to the movers and shakers of the royalty, nobility, religious, economy and political scene. That's who would've likely purchased one of these MBs, not your average Bedouin wanting to write a note to his wife.

 

The colors of the American flag are used as the flag colors of many other nations. But you still wouldn't likely see a red, white and blue cap top on a pen made for and sold to high-ranking Politburo members during the cold war. Or, reverse the example- Parker wouldn't have come out with a "Big Red" with a red jewel, inset with a yellow star.

 

Aaron

[RevAaron]

It's my understanding that the Nazi party had reversed the direction of the arms. I have a beaded evening bag that belonged to my great-great grandmother that has the symbol on it.

 

It's a common misunderstanding. Usually, the urban legend goes something like: "Nazis took a symbol for good luck, reversed the direction of the arms, and made it into a symbol for power and evil." Not the case. In some parts of the world, one is more popular than the other; in the end, it was more a graphic design decision than a purposeful differentiation between the symbol of the NSDAP and the good luck sign.

[Pravda]

The white dot for Saudi Arabia is very understandable, at a time when Vacheron Constantin watches had to do without the Maltese cross as its symbol or the perfume Champagne by YSL... but nowadays awareness, and objectivity, have fortunately won and Montblanc is sold and marketed with its normal symbols, along with watches, perfumes etc

[Titivillus]

All German companies manufactured products for the nazis during the war, and there is no reason to think MB was an exception.

There were no "swastika MBs" though, that is an urban legend as far as I know.

 

But the lack of an example easily at hand still doesn't mean that they were not produced. I have heard of dinnerware and water pitchers produced with the symbol as well as typewriters made with two extra keys during the war. It jogs the back of my mind that at a pen show some collector produced an example. It might also be that the people who collect things with that symbol on it aren't likely to be seen on pen boards.

 

I would wonder if the company would admit to producing pens with that particular decoration if asked about it???

 

Kurt

 

[Darius]

Which does not make sense to me. Even if the star resembels the Star of David, it shouldn't be a problem. David, peace be upon him, is a prophet of God in Islam as much as he is a prophet in Judaism and Christianity.

 

Palestine.

 

There was an explosion of Jewish immigration to Palestine during the 1930s, and the Arab worlds was no more interested

 

1922 83,790

1931 174,606

1941 474,102

1946 608,225

 

The implication isn't that Muslims has any distaste for David or his Star, but for what it represents- Judaism, but more specifically Zionism. It's also been (and still) used as a symbol for the Zionism movement, especially during the 20s, 30s and 40s- it is the symbol of the Israeli State. It doesn't seem wise to be marketing a pen emblazoned with the symbol of the growing movement to establish a Jewish state to the movers and shakers of the royalty, nobility, religious, economy and political scene. That's who would've likely purchased one of these MBs, not your average Bedouin wanting to write a note to his wife.

 

The colors of the American flag are used as the flag colors of many other nations. But you still wouldn't likely see a red, white and blue cap top on a pen made for and sold to high-ranking Politburo members during the cold war. Or, reverse the example- Parker wouldn't have come out with a "Big Red" with a red jewel, inset with a yellow star.

 

Aaron

Aaron, I understand the politics behind it. What I meant is that even with the political background of the area, the Star of David is originally a religious symbol for Judaism. A political entity or movement that chooses any religious symbol, should not make the symbol bad, even if the political entity is considered an enemy.

[RevAaron]

Ah, got ya, sorry. Didn't mean to take "don't understand" for "simply doesn't make rational sense to me." My bad!

[Darius]

Ah, got ya, sorry. Didn't mean to take "don't understand" for "simply doesn't make rational sense to me." My bad!

No need to apologise my friend.