Babe Ruth Signature

[Univer]

Hi All,

 

The other day I had an Antiques Roadshow rerun on in the background, and I happened to glance up to see that someone had brought in a few signed baseballs for appraisal.

 

One sported a Babe Ruth signature, and the appraiser took a moment to explain that genuine Babe Ruth signatures are distinguished by what she called a final "dot" at the end of the line crossing the letter "t" in "Ruth." She actually took the trouble to reenact the signing motion in pantomime, applying a final stab of the imaginary pen following the side stroke. The camera obligingly zoomed in for a closeup of the signature.

 

Well, this "dot" looked, for all the world, like the normal pooling/soaking of ink at the end of a stroke, where the point has lingered for a moment before being lifted from the paper. In other words: it was as if my television were suddenly showing a fountain-pen documentary, with a specific focus on shading. Weird!

 

Now, I wouldn't presume to dispute the expertise of the appraiser. Where a public figure of such popularity is involved, there may well be good evidence supporting her conclusion: film footage of the Babe, for example, signing baseballs and adding a characteristic dot. So my impression of the phenomenon as normal ink shading could be completely mistaken.

 

Here are two views of another signed Babe Ruth ball (no, not from my personal collection!). To my eye, the darkening at the end of the "t" cross-stroke looks similar to the darkening at the end of the final "h" stroke - and they both look like they could be artifacts of ink shading. What do you think?

 

 

 

But what really got me thinking was the realization that all the antique signed baseballs - and other sports relics - in the world must have been signed with fountain pens. What else was available in (say) 1927? No markers. No ballpoints. And a dip pen would have been out of the question. So obviously the fountain pen worked reasonably well on horsehide, pigskin and who knows what else.

 

Not all that surprising, I guess, when one remembers that dip pens were often called upon to write on vellum. And certainly consistent with the fact that the fountain pen, for much of its life, was a hardworking, commonplace implement that had to earn its keep with reliable everyday performance. When a signature was called for, the fountain pen was uncapped: it was the only option. It had to work.

 

But I will say that this sort of thing inclines me to be a bit less forgiving of some of my costly modern pens...and their finickiness about paper types, hand oils and the like.

 

Cheers,

 

Jon

[RLTodd]

Looks like it was signed with an indelible pencil.

[Univer]

Hmmm...I can see what you're talking about.

 

The site selling the ball describes it as bearing a "black ink" signature. For ~$60K, I would hope they'd have the description letter-perfect.

 

What do you think about this one? Similar "t" and "h," and maybe more clearly a fountain-pen signature.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Jon

[KingJoe]

Hmmm...I can see what you're talking about.

 

The site selling the ball describes it as bearing a "black ink" signature. For ~$60K, I would hope they'd have the description letter-perfect.

 

What do you think about this one? Similar "t" and "h," and maybe more clearly a fountain-pen signature.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Jon

 

Jon,

 

I collect signed baseballs (mostly ones I have gotten in person), and to me, the second picture (blue) most definitely looks like natural pooling at the end of a line. The first one looks like it could go either way. How odd...

 

I've seen a few Babe Ruth balls in person, but alas, I can't remember this portion. I was probably more intrigued by the price tags at the time...

 

~~Mike

[Ray-Vigo]

How consistent is the dot's location? The ink example appears on the h, the pencil-looking one on the t (slash).

[captnemo]

Gee, I haven't thought about it in years but I inherited a signed baseball from my stepfather. I can remember it photographically in my mind. It was signed by Babe Ruth and the whole rest of the team as well, in blue ink. It was the real thing. He got it when he lived in Washington, DC in the 1930's. It was still in its original box. Not being a sports fan I never gave it much thought and I lost it when all my stuff in storage was broken into and stolen in the late 1990's.

[Univer]

How consistent is the dot's location? The ink example appears on the h, the pencil-looking one on the t (slash).

Hi there,

 

To my eye, there's a minute darker bit (I'll avoid the "dot" terminology) at the end of each. Judging from online photos (always dangerous), that darker bit seems to appear consistently in both letters.

 

My dad, who grew up in New York, had several Babe Ruth autographs - ones that he obtained personally. As is so often the case, they were simply lost over the years.

 

The Babe must have signed a lot of balls over the decades. The prices (spoken with the conviction of the non-collector) seem slightly inflated.

 

Cheers,

 

Jon

[Ray-Vigo]

Value-wise a real Babe Ruth baseball will be worth more than any other player with comparable condition. It's the myth of Babe Ruth that really adds to the value. They're not rare, but the supply is still quite small compared to the demand. With baseball signatures it's the lore of the game as much as the player's records that make something valuable. Hank Aaron has more homeruns than Ruth (I suppose for now Bonds does too), and Roger Maris broke the single season mark decades ago. Neither one of these would come anywhere close to a Babe Ruth ball though- because of the lore surrounding the Babe. He's the Hercules of baseball- a big guy with many accomplishments where the myth and reality blend. It has a lot to do with Ruth being a symbol of his times as well as the whole game of baseball when that sport was king in America. Baseball was #1 and its #1 hero/legend was Ruth. It's all about the history.

 

 

I believe that this Roadshow episode (I don't normally watch, but I heard about these baseballs and had to see it) had a full 1927 Yankees baseball as well. That ball is a wonderful piece of history since full team balls at that time were actually quite rare (there wasn't a formalized market for the stuff like there is now). It would be a special occasion if you could get the whole team to sign a ball. I think that one was a gem of baseball history- a piece from one of the all time great teams.

Edited October 30, 2007 by Ray-Vigo

[Univer]

Hey there,

 

Absolutely - I would rather have a Ruth signature than any other player's. And I fully understand that a Ruth ball's value is only partly a function of rarity. I suppose there are pens like that, too - pens that are worth more than much rarer pens that lack "mystique."

 

If I remember correctly, the signed team ball was worth only a fraction of the value of the Ruth ball. But I completely agree: as a snapshot of a moment in time, the team ball is more compelling.

 

Cheers,

 

Jon

[Ray-Vigo]

Hey there,

 

Absolutely - I would rather have a Ruth signature than any other player's. And I fully understand that a Ruth ball's value is only partly a function of rarity. I suppose there are pens like that, too - pens that are worth more than much rarer pens that lack "mystique."

 

If I remember correctly, the signed team ball was worth only a fraction of the value of the Ruth ball. But I completely agree: as a snapshot of a moment in time, the team ball is more compelling.

 

Cheers,

 

Jon

 

If I remember- was it the condition of the team ball being worse that caused this? One of them had been shellaced and had some bad fading of the signatures if I recall.

 

[Hoarder68]

Gee, I haven't thought about it in years but I inherited a signed baseball from my stepfather. I can remember it photographically in my mind. It was signed by Babe Ruth and the whole rest of the team as well, in blue ink. It was the real thing. He got it when he lived in Washington, DC in the 1930's. It was still in its original box. Not being a sports fan I never gave it much thought and I lost it when all my stuff in storage was broken into and stolen in the late 1990's.

I can feel your pain. That would be a great loss.

[captnemo]

Gee, I haven't thought about it in years but I inherited a signed baseball from my stepfather. I can remember it photographically in my mind. It was signed by Babe Ruth and the whole rest of the team as well, in blue ink. It was the real thing. He got it when he lived in Washington, DC in the 1930's. It was still in its original box. Not being a sports fan I never gave it much thought and I lost it when all my stuff in storage was broken into and stolen in the late 1990's.

I can feel your pain. That would be a great loss.

 

Oh yeah. I lost a lot more than the baseball. There was lots of valuable stuff, artwork, paintings, historical items, collection of 40 rare German beer steins some going back to the 16th century. Plus I am now a person with no history. I was the family genealogist and I lost records of close to 1,800 relatives, marriage licenses, birth certs, photos going back into 1800's, other documents going back as far as 1444, plus all my photos. I have no photos of my parents, grandparents, or of my childhood, travels, trips to Europe, and I had thousands and thousands. Plus I lost $20,000 worth of amateur radio gear. All gone. I have nothing now except my memory. Hah. Yeah, it was very painful.

[Hoarder68]

Gee, I haven't thought about it in years but I inherited a signed baseball from my stepfather. I can remember it photographically in my mind. It was signed by Babe Ruth and the whole rest of the team as well, in blue ink. It was the real thing. He got it when he lived in Washington, DC in the 1930's. It was still in its original box. Not being a sports fan I never gave it much thought and I lost it when all my stuff in storage was broken into and stolen in the late 1990's.

I can feel your pain. That would be a great loss.

 

Oh yeah. I lost a lot more than the baseball. There was lots of valuable stuff, artwork, paintings, historical items, collection of 40 rare German beer steins some going back to the 16th century. Plus I am now a person with no history. I was the family genealogist and I lost records of close to 1,800 relatives, marriage licenses, birth certs, photos going back into 1800's, other documents going back as far as 1444, plus all my photos. I have no photos of my parents, grandparents, or of my childhood, travels, trips to Europe, and I had thousands and thousands. Plus I lost $20,000 worth of amateur radio gear. All gone. I have nothing now except my memory. Hah. Yeah, it was very painful.

That is a horrible thing to happen. I guess until it happens to you it is hard to imagine the pain.

[Univer]

If I remember- was it the condition of the team ball being worse that caused this? One of them had been shellaced and had some bad fading of the signatures if I recall.

It's possible that this was a different episode, I suppose. If I remember correctly, the one team ball was downgraded in value because a key player's signature was missing. I don't recall condition issues being discussed, but I may have gotten preoccupied with the ink question and missed something.

 

Anybody ever see a fountain pen featured on the show? I keep waiting for a Parker Aztec to show up. 'Well, as long as I can remember it's been in a shoebox up in the attic, along with the old army men and the marbles....'

 

Cheers,

 

Jon

 

[Hoarder68]

Hi All,

 

The other day I had an Antiques Roadshow rerun on in the background, and I happened to glance up to see that someone had brought in a few signed baseballs for appraisal.

 

One sported a Babe Ruth signature, and the appraiser took a moment to explain that genuine Babe Ruth signatures are distinguished by what she called a final "dot" at the end of the line crossing the letter "t" in "Ruth." She actually took the trouble to reenact the signing motion in pantomime, applying a final stab of the imaginary pen following the side stroke. The camera obligingly zoomed in for a closeup of the signature.

 

Well, this "dot" looked, for all the world, like the normal pooling/soaking of ink at the end of a stroke, where the point has lingered for a moment before being lifted from the paper. In other words: it was as if my television were suddenly showing a fountain-pen documentary, with a specific focus on shading. Weird!

 

Now, I wouldn't presume to dispute the expertise of the appraiser. Where a public figure of such popularity is involved, there may well be good evidence supporting her conclusion: film footage of the Babe, for example, signing baseballs and adding a characteristic dot. So my impression of the phenomenon as normal ink shading could be completely mistaken.

 

Here are two views of another signed Babe Ruth ball (no, not from my personal collection!). To my eye, the darkening at the end of the "t" cross-stroke looks similar to the darkening at the end of the final "h" stroke - and they both look like they could be artifacts of ink shading. What do you think?

 

 

 

But what really got me thinking was the realization that all the antique signed baseballs - and other sports relics - in the world must have been signed with fountain pens. What else was available in (say) 1927? No markers. No ballpoints. And a dip pen would have been out of the question. So obviously the fountain pen worked reasonably well on horsehide, pigskin and who knows what else.

 

Not all that surprising, I guess, when one remembers that dip pens were often called upon to write on vellum. And certainly consistent with the fact that the fountain pen, for much of its life, was a hardworking, commonplace implement that had to earn its keep with reliable everyday performance. When a signature was called for, the fountain pen was uncapped: it was the only option. It had to work.

 

But I will say that this sort of thing inclines me to be a bit less forgiving of some of my costly modern pens...and their finickiness about paper types, hand oils and the like.

 

Cheers,

 

Jon

I don't know this for a fact, but I have been told that many items autographed by Babe Ruth were actually signed by his wife.

[Hoarder68]

Hey there,

 

Absolutely - I would rather have a Ruth signature than any other player's. And I fully understand that a Ruth ball's value is only partly a function of rarity. I suppose there are pens like that, too - pens that are worth more than much rarer pens that lack "mystique."

 

If I remember correctly, the signed team ball was worth only a fraction of the value of the Ruth ball. But I completely agree: as a snapshot of a moment in time, the team ball is more compelling.

 

Cheers,

 

Jon

There was a condition issue with the team ball. It had been coated with shellac which over time deteriorates and damages the autographs.

[Ray-Vigo]

Hi All,

 

The other day I had an Antiques Roadshow rerun on in the background, and I happened to glance up to see that someone had brought in a few signed baseballs for appraisal.

 

One sported a Babe Ruth signature, and the appraiser took a moment to explain that genuine Babe Ruth signatures are distinguished by what she called a final "dot" at the end of the line crossing the letter "t" in "Ruth." She actually took the trouble to reenact the signing motion in pantomime, applying a final stab of the imaginary pen following the side stroke. The camera obligingly zoomed in for a closeup of the signature.

 

Well, this "dot" looked, for all the world, like the normal pooling/soaking of ink at the end of a stroke, where the point has lingered for a moment before being lifted from the paper. In other words: it was as if my television were suddenly showing a fountain-pen documentary, with a specific focus on shading. Weird!

 

Now, I wouldn't presume to dispute the expertise of the appraiser. Where a public figure of such popularity is involved, there may well be good evidence supporting her conclusion: film footage of the Babe, for example, signing baseballs and adding a characteristic dot. So my impression of the phenomenon as normal ink shading could be completely mistaken.

 

Here are two views of another signed Babe Ruth ball (no, not from my personal collection!). To my eye, the darkening at the end of the "t" cross-stroke looks similar to the darkening at the end of the final "h" stroke - and they both look like they could be artifacts of ink shading. What do you think?

 

 

 

But what really got me thinking was the realization that all the antique signed baseballs - and other sports relics - in the world must have been signed with fountain pens. What else was available in (say) 1927? No markers. No ballpoints. And a dip pen would have been out of the question. So obviously the fountain pen worked reasonably well on horsehide, pigskin and who knows what else.

 

Not all that surprising, I guess, when one remembers that dip pens were often called upon to write on vellum. And certainly consistent with the fact that the fountain pen, for much of its life, was a hardworking, commonplace implement that had to earn its keep with reliable everyday performance. When a signature was called for, the fountain pen was uncapped: it was the only option. It had to work.

 

But I will say that this sort of thing inclines me to be a bit less forgiving of some of my costly modern pens...and their finickiness about paper types, hand oils and the like.

 

Cheers,

 

Jon

I don't know this for a fact, but I have been told that many items autographed by Babe Ruth were actually signed by his wife.

 

 

Very possible- though he had more than one wife.

 

The usual procedure was the "Club House Boy" procedure where a club house attendant or other junior staffer would sign the balls that were handed out en masse at Yankee stadium. Often these can be spotted right away by an experienced collector or signature expert.

Edited October 31, 2007 by Ray-Vigo

[antoniosz]

It could have been one of his "Babe Ruth" Diamond Point fountain pens like this one.

[Univer]

Hi Antonios,

 

Thanks for the link. I had heard of the Babe Ruth pen, but had forgotten all about it. Definitely a contender for "best cap jewel ever."

 

I wonder if he actually used the pens. I have this fixed mental image, based on nothing whatsoever, of the Bambino flourishing a Big Red: it seems extravagant enough for his over-the-top personality.

 

Another interesting facet of the Babe Ruth Pen story is the fact that great sports stars were, once upon a time, accessible enough so that it might be possible to meet one on a train (no private jets!). My dad used to tell me stories of riding up to Yankee Stadium on the subway, and often encountering members of the visiting teams on the train (I guess they stayed in Manhattan and took the subway up to the Bronx). He got a lot of autographs that way...none of which, regrettably, survived.

 

Cheers,

 

Jon

[Ray-Vigo]

A fellow I work with grew up in Brooklyn and remembers living just a few blocks from where many of the Dodgers lived. He used to see them all the time.

 

 

Hi Antonios,

 

Thanks for the link. I had heard of the Babe Ruth pen, but had forgotten all about it. Definitely a contender for "best cap jewel ever."

 

I wonder if he actually used the pens. I have this fixed mental image, based on nothing whatsoever, of the Bambino flourishing a Big Red: it seems extravagant enough for his over-the-top personality.

 

Another interesting facet of the Babe Ruth Pen story is the fact that great sports stars were, once upon a time, accessible enough so that it might be possible to meet one on a train (no private jets!). My dad used to tell me stories of riding up to Yankee Stadium on the subway, and often encountering members of the visiting teams on the train (I guess they stayed in Manhattan and took the subway up to the Bronx). He got a lot of autographs that way...none of which, regrettably, survived.

 

Cheers,

 

Jon