Why Mont Blanc pens are such an arument magnet ?

[Bisquitlips]

I just suggest that everyone just buy a bunch of fake Montblancs and fake Rolexs so we can all look good to others and feel good about ourselves (of course the feeling good about our selves part would be a dichotomy).

 

And, who knows, the fakes may work just as well as the real ones. At that point we will have gotten a good value for our money, people are impressed with us, we are impressed with us (a logical fallacy, but whose counting those), and life is beautiful.

 

:roflmho:

 

It worked for OJ.

 

 

OJ did what?

[Paddler]

Paddler...you have been around for less than 400 posts...I have been holding back on a lot of MB posts...for about the last two months...

 

"A wise man can recognize the gleam of truth regardless of who utters it." - Gildas Bandonicus

 

JD KNOWS I got a Remington 870 TB with a shell in the chamber and a whole case of W/W AAs---and I am just waitin' for someone to yell-- PULL

 

And they's jist not FPs --- they's FIGHTIN' WORDS!!!!

 

Bill

 

You wouldn't be calling me out to a trap or a skeet range, would you Bill? May I use my own reloads?

 

Paddler

 

 

[lecorbusier]

A Query Once:

 

Someone: (who notices my 'fake' MB), where is that snowcap on your pen? (it is a Sailor 1911)

 

Me: It melted. Don't you know the glaciers are retreating and the snow gone? Why are you still so delusional?

 

QED.

 

 

[kazoolaw]

Because......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On an otherwise slow day the mere mention of Montblanc will cause a Pavlovian reaction, guaranteeing everyone a chance to take part in class warfare without real blood being shed.

gary

[encremental]

I think Rolex is a particularly good analogy, Pintrok- better than Bose in my list - as Iridium points out, Bose deserve every bit of scorn that hi-fi nuts pour on them (although must say I was surprised by the iPod dock).

 

The problem with trying to impress by conspicuous consumption is that anyone you do happen to impress isn't really worth impressing. I think this is the difference between style and 'lifestyle' e.g. David Bowie might buy Danitrio, David Beckham would go with MB etc. etc.

 

Maybe another reason for the rage is that MB have come down in the world a bit. When independent, they were an honest high-end manufacturer with a certain integrity. Now they are just LVMH pseudo posh (bleep) like all their other brands - well, almost. Omas is another LVMH acquisition, but seems to have escaped the MB taint for the moment. Will this last? I think the lustre has gone from Parker and Waterman since becoming part of Newell Rubbermaid (and can anyone take a company with the name Rubbermaid as part of its name seriously?) and I think that MB's brand stretching may be the point at which it jumps the shark for the segment it is aiming for. Perfume and belts are just tacky, especially as I saw 'Femme De Montblanc' ( I mean, really...) on special in the discount chemists at Hammersmith tube station last week. At least we are never likely to see 'Frau Des Pelikans' any time soon.

 

John

 

Bill, do please stop hassling me - I gather this MB thing is sort of your FPN party piece, but then I expect we've all got family members with party pieces and know just how they appear to everybody else when they go into them (one more time). If you REALLY want a handbags (purses) at dawn (bleep)-slapping sort of a thing, I am quite able to oblige, but would prefer not to. . Forums where idiots call each other names for no particular reason are two a penny, but I thought that FPN was not like that.

[LouisA]

Hey all you people with multiple MontBlancs stuck in some drawer because you find you like Eye-Talion pens better. You got a 145 for sale? I'm looking for one, cheap. Since you ain't using it and all.

[Penturner]

Paddler...you have been around for less than 400 posts...I have been holding back on a lot of MB posts...for about the last two months...

 

"A wise man can recognize the gleam of truth regardless of who utters it." - Gildas Bandonicus

 

JD KNOWS I got a Remington 870 TB with a shell in the chamber and a whole case of W/W AAs---and I am just waitin' for someone to yell-- PULL

 

And they's jist not FPs --- they's FIGHTIN' WORDS!!!!

 

Bill

 

You wouldn't be calling me out to a trap or a skeet range, would you Bill? May I use my own reloads?

 

Paddler

Is this an open invitation? Can everybody olay here. I'll bring my own toys and supplies

[Bisquitlips]

Hey all you people with multiple MontBlancs stuck in some drawer because you find you like Eye-Talion pens better. You got a 145 for sale? I'm looking for one, cheap. Since you ain't using it and all.

 

 

Sure, be we will want way more than its worth. :ltcapd:

[Bennington1967]

Threads like this one will always lead nowhere - there is too much disagreement. It's best agreeing to disagree and leave it at that.

 

Especially with the kind of apologetics you bandy about. You have come very very close to pulling the pin on the Wright MB bottle rocket...

 

 

And what the heck do you mean by that? I'm not apologising for anything, so don't misread what I said.

 

I stand by my comments - Montblanc is a quality brand that sells quality pens for quality people. I'm not going to get involved in arguing because with people like you it's beating a dead horse.

[omasfan]

I'm not going to get involved in arguing because with people like you it's beating a dead horse.

 

Mark Lavar, and with people like you it's waiting until the admins ban you again from promulgating your wisdom that has poisoned many a thread here. :roflmho:

[Penturner]

OK, my $.02 on MB's. They earned their brand recognition the hard way, They bought it through heavy advertizing. they keep it the same way. So what? Remember "Mercedes Benz" (not Phillip although they may be related)? In the 50's and 60's they were priced about the same as the cheaper Cadillac's. You almost never saw one in the United States. In the late 60's and early 70's, I was living in Spain, anad the only Mercedes Benz you saw throughout most of Europe was for the Taxicabs. Then they started "advertizing" in the US their "Superior German Engineering" and DOUBLED their prices. It was an unmitigated marketing success! At the same time BMW was a second tier German auto maker, better know for motorcycles. They jumped on the Mercedes Quality bandwagon and the rest is history.

 

In the exclusive "antique shopping district" of downtown Charleston South Carolina, there is a small storefront about 12ft by 20 ft. They sell MB fountain pens EXCUSIVELY. MB employs two very attractive youg ladies, dressed in black business suits with short skirts (for the men). Both these women are well versed in their product. Before removing a pen from a showcase they

first don a pair of whtie gloves. After the prospective customer is done pawing the pen, it is wiped down, fingerprints and smudges removed prior to being replaced on display.

 

It is this type of expensive marketing that helps them retain their brand recognition and product prestige.

 

My personal gripe has nothing to do with any of the above. I recognise and respect marketing genius when I see it. This is Capitalism at its finest!!!

 

My gripe is far simpler. I currently have a MB that belongs to one of my customers, given me for repair. The outer portion of the feed was broken. I called MB Service Department and tried to order the replacement part I needed. MB doesn't send parts to ANYONE, ALL REPAIRS HAVE TO BE DONE BY THEM. OK, A asked how much the part costs and was told approximately $35.00. Last week I got an "Official Estimate" for $55.00 plus $10.00 return shipping plus tax. I called again to ask about the difference between what I was told on the phone and the written estimate. The answer was curt, "We have a $55.00 MINIMUM for all repairs.

 

Chartpak, the Pelikan distributer would have repaired the pen without charge. Parker would have sold me the needed parts. MB unfortunately, doesn't believe in customer relations AFTER the sale.

Edited October 11, 2007 by Penturner

[coolpenz]

Ok, I have to add my double pennies...

 

First, the whole "jealousy" thing? Please. Doesn't even merit a response.'

If you're buying any so-called prestige brand solely (please note that word well; Im not making a blanket statement about ALL owners) to impress others or yourself, you have some serious self-esteem issues; spend what you would've on the next item on some therapy instead. If you buy them because you genuinely like them, enjoy them. Hope you have them for years to come.

 

Second, let's get the Rolex/B&O/Bose comparisons outta the way: Rolex makes a reliable, better than average watch. (we're talking mechanical, now; the movement in any quartz watch is worth no more than $20). It's not the best available. But its overall quality has never really dropped.

 

You can say the same about B&O's stuff. I have 2 B&O turntables that are almost 27 years old and still perform flawlessly. I know others with other B&O stuff who can say the same.

 

At the very beginning, Bose made a nice speaker. That lasted maybe a year. Then, like so many other companies, it got fat and lazy and decided to live off its reputation, so it began producing very overpriced, very mediocre equipment. At least in the experience of a lot of people.

 

Now... The same can be said for MB. It makes a very overpriced, squarely mediocre product. For me, this isn't conjecture; it's fact. I own one now; a Carrera I got for $10 at a flea. It writes well and has always done so. I've dropped it twice and it didn't break. It was one of the few times MB got it right. So much so, I even bought one for a friend's B-day. But I"ve also owned several others. Two LEs, which never performed correctly, and once sent to the factory and retuned, still didn't. The snottiness and arrogance of the CS dept. was appalling. Another Meisterstuck snapped in half when I was unscrewing the cap. The nibs were basically fine. The pens were just not made well. I've heard countless similar stories. And I've heard from those who adore MBs and never had a bad one. For them, that's cool. I personally believe MB FPs are, ounce for ounce, some of the most overpriced pens on the planet. Let's not even talk about the BPs.

 

That's one part of it. The other is that MB was -- and please, someone, correct me if I"m wrong -- the first pen to advertise itself as a lifestyle; one of life's true de rigeuer luxuries; a must-own if you've truly made it in life. The marketing was, and still is, brilliant; MB targeted a particular sizeable segment of the population: status-seekers who likely weren't too familiar with FPs, and hit it right on the bullseye. And its plastic (and it IS plastic) suddenly becoming "precious resin," like something mined in the wilds of Nigeria or mountains of Tibet? Genius. It made mediocrity a must-have luxury.

 

The problem is, once MB's campaign took off, it seems that, seeing its success, most of the other pen companies since have seen fit to also release overpriced model after overpriced model. Now there are hundreds of new pens priced beyond the means of most collectors, and many, if not all cannot even begin to justify their price tags with real reasons.

 

I think MB's whole "you must own me if you've made it" markleting campaign is what turns many people off; the brand has become a symbol of conspicous consumption, especially when you read about it coming out with a jewel-encrusted number at almost $200,000 that's pre-ordered by over 20 people the first week after the announcement.

 

OK; I'm done. I will say one thing: I do give MB credit for keeping its LEs attractive and not letting them degenerate to the absurdity other brands have

Edited October 11, 2007 by coolpenz

[Stylo]

Montblanc attracts arguments because of jealousy. It's as simple as that.

Why would owners of say high end Watermans and Parkers be jealous of Montblanc? As you said yourself, Montblancs "isn't a particuarly expensive brand." Most of their regular production pens seem to have street prices between $250 and $500. Compared to Edson, Serenite, almost all Conways, M1000, Duofolds, etc., they don't specially stand out in terms of price. But if you are talking about people who know nothing about pens, then perhaps you have a point.

 

This brand is a symbol of success in life and in business - like a Rolex watch ...

In relative terms, I think Rolex is much higher priced in the watch world then Montblanc is in the pen world. But you are right, they are both often used to show success to others, mostly financial success. I don't want to come across as an elitist snob here, but you see that practice more among professions where the profession itself is no sign of success. For instance, being a salesman of a mundane product will impress no one. But a prolific salesman may want to show off his success with expensive pens and jewelry. Doctors, physicist, or professors, for example, are less likely to show off with such things, because very few of the people they interact with would be impressed by them.

 

There are lots of other brands that are expensive, so I don't buy that argument. MB isn't cheap, but - apart from the ridiculous limited editions - it's not a particuarly expensive brand.

I think we mostly agree. I think as you mention in another post, Montblanc has indeed been very careful about grooming and maintaining a certain image. Contrast this to Pelikan which sells $3000 LEs and $200-500 Souverans alongside $15 Pelikanos. You won't see any $20 pens from Montblnac BMW has used a similar strategy in the U.S. For instance, in the U.S. we get only the two top engine choices and the cars come fairly loaded, whereas you can still get weak 4-cylinders in Europe, and not too long ago, you could even get a 3-series with rollup windows. Imagine what importing such models would do to BMW's upscale image in the U.S. :roflmho:

 

I think people who get riled up by Montblanc are mostly ticked off by the luxury/upscale image nurtured by the company. And I think they are actually not that many of them. Most of us don't care either way.

 

[sleek_lover]

Paddler...you have been around for less than 400 posts...I have been holding back on a lot of MB posts...for about the last two months...

 

"A wise man can recognize the gleam of truth regardless of who utters it." - Gildas Bandonicus

 

JD KNOWS I got a Remington 870 TB with a shell in the chamber and a whole case of W/W AAs---and I am just waitin' for someone to yell-- PULL

 

And they's jist not FPs --- they's FIGHTIN' WORDS!!!!

 

Bill

 

You wouldn't be calling me out to a trap or a skeet range, would you Bill? May I use my own reloads?

 

Paddler

 

 

 

Damn...I have a Ponsness-Warren 600-B somewhere around here...and I also lost my 870-TB in D2...so yeah I am not half bad at trap...BTW...the PW needs rehab, but it is an 8-station progressive...interested?

 

Bill

[Iridium]

At the very beginning, Bose made a nice speaker. That lasted maybe a year. Then, like so many other companies, it got fat and lazy and decided to live off its reputation, so it began producing very overpriced, very mediocre equipment. At least in the experience of a lot of people.

 

Now... The same can be said for MB. It makes a very overpriced, squarely mediocre product. For me, this isn't conjecture; it's fact. I own one now; a Carrera I got for $10 at a flea. It writes well and has always done so. I've dropped it twice and it didn't break. It was one of the few times MB got it right. So much so, I even bought one for a friend's B-day. But I"ve also owned several others. Two LEs, which never performed correctly, and once sent to the factory and retuned, still didn't. The snottiness and arrogance of the CS dept. was appalling. Another Meisterstuck snapped in half when I was unscrewing the cap. The nibs were basically fine. The pens were just not made well. I've heard countless similar stories. And I've heard from those who adore MBs and never had a bad one. For them, that's cool. I personally believe MB FPs are, ounce for ounce, some of the most overpriced pens on the planet. Let's not even talk about the BPs.

 

Hmmm...perhaps MB is closer to Bose than I realized, the main difference being that it has supporters among fountain pen aficionados, whereas Bose is universally despised. Another interesting comparison might be Wilson Audio, which sells speakers for tens and even hundreds of thousands of dollars, even though they are outperformed in objective measurements by a number of very affordable speakers. They don't have much sales volume, but in some circles they have plenty of prestige, hype, and supporters who claim that they're worth every penny. So called "high end" audio is just about the craziest fandom out there. Oh yeah, Monster Cable is another interesting comparison, although their products are generally of good build quality (they just don't perform any better than much less expensive products of reasonable quality).

 

That's one part of it. The other is that MB was -- and please, someone, correct me if I"m wrong -- the first pen to advertise itself as a lifestyle; one of life's true de rigeuer luxuries; a must-own if you've truly made it in life. The marketing was, and still is, brilliant; MB targeted a particular sizeable segment of the population: status-seekers who likely weren't too familiar with FPs, and hit it right on the bullseye.

 

This sounds like Bose's marketing, and they actually call their home theater systems "Lifestyle" to drive home the point. Their ads typically consist of a blank, nearly empty white room with huge windows and a flat-panel TV on the wall, their puny speakers mounted around it, and a yuppie couple complete with fake smiles. This image leaves me rather cold, but has evidently been phenomenally successful overall.

 

And its plastic (and it IS plastic) suddenly becoming "precious resin," like something mined in the wilds of Nigeria or mountains of Tibet? Genius. It made mediocrity a must-have luxury.

 

What, they didn't tell you? Don't let the modest terminology fool you--it may technically be a form of plastic, but you must understand that it is a treasure indeed because of its origins and the manner in which it is made. You start with the first spring sap from a rare species of tree that only grows at the edges of perilous cliffs in the desert, namely Yucca stercoris tauri. The sap--the precious sap--must be harvested only by the light of a blue moon, fed to sacred male cattle to be processed biologically, and then extracted at the other end and purified orally by octogenarian virgins bearing gold dentures. Then...only then...may the mystical substratum be forged into illustrious instruments of literary composition in the searing caldera of Mount Wannahockaloogie....

 

Well, whatever this stuff is, it's pretty brittle from what I've read (I haven't had the chance to shatter a sample myself). I wouldn't try to pencil-fight with it, anyway.

[Zwelig]

Mont Blanc, Max Weber, the Utilitarian philosophy and the "Spirit" of Capitalism

 

I see that the discussion has turned to some very interesting melting pots of ideas and opinions. At first, it may be all inconclusive gibberish. But, at a more careful analysis, we see some points in common being demonstrated by both defenders and detractors of Mont Blanc. Let's have a brief look from a sociological standpoint.

 

Mont Blanc as sign of Status

Capitalism is utilitarian. Completely. The more utilitarian you are, the best you perform on market, in theory.

Capitalism is not only a form of organisation- it is an ideology. It says that acting in an utilitarian way is better.

What is exactly utilitarism? Maximize your efficience, increase your profit, divide your time rationally, make money. Being rich is the final goal. In order to do that, you must attract bussiness. The more you show to be succesful, the more bussiness you attract. This is a basic pillar or utilitarism- it doesn't matter only that you are succesful, but you must also look succesful, in order to be even more sucessful.

 

Mont Blanc found a very good market on the kind of people who are touched the most by utilitarian philosophy. That is- corporate people, executives, etc. These people do not want to show they are sucessful because they have self-esteem problems (although, *indeed*, many may have. But that is another question- after all, how many Fountain Pen lovers do not, and, in a similarly capitalist way, compensate it buying other expensive fountain pens, or getting a lot of fountain pens, in order to compensate it?)- that is a natural capitalist trait. As someone said, there are more salesmen with Mont Blancs than, let's say, University Professors, which might be, in their professions, even more sucessful than a salesman with a Mont Blanc. Bingo. Who is (generally) more into utilitarism- a salesman, or a professor? Who is more dependant of capitalism?

 

Look, I am not bashing here on FP lovers, collectors, salesmen, professors, nor on MB owners, lovers, counscient or status-thisrty consumers. What I tried to prove here is that saying that people buy things not because of exactly low self-esteem, but because capitalist ideology requires them to do that in order to look succesful, and therefore, be succesful. These people aren't exactly stupid, they have just been more brainwashed than we--

(now quoting Weber- who was a conservative, and called socialism"a pathetic prophecy", and said, just after the russian revolution that it would be a dictatorship of bureaucrats, not socialism-, everyone, simply everyone of us, who live in a capitalist world, by one degree or another have been touched and tainted to by the spirit of capitalism, by the utilitarian philosophy and way of life.)

 

OF COURSE- many might buy Mont Blancs because they look nice, perform nice, and feel nice. To them, at least. I cannot despise someones assumption that his Mont Blanc is great simply because I think that it is bad because it does not adapt to my writing style. Quality, however, is another question.

 

The Mont Blanc Boutique

Have you ever entered on one?

 

I have. There is one in my city. In a Mall.

 

I can say it is an awesome experience. The sellers were impeccably dressed, fantastically polite and really well-informed about every single aspect of their product. The coffee was great. I was treated like a king. They have shown the whole store. They didn't miss a pen, or a buckle. The seller, at all time, kept hammering on how, for example, the Bohème pen meant "the merry aspects of the boheme lifestyle plus the bourgeois sophistication", and other mumbo jumbo. He knew what was the origin of the term "Sterling Silver", he pronounced every single pen name in german flawlessly. Anyone a little less informed than me, and with a little more money in the wallet than me would, for sure, buy without thinking twice. These guys really know how to sell. I really would believe that everyhting there was carefully crafted with love, and is unique and exclusive.

 

Caran D'Ache is following that slowly. They now have money clips. Palladium Belt Buckles. Lighters (pretty nice ones). Cufflinks, tie clips. Their catalog says how great is osmium, "a metal ten times more expensive than gold" (that will fore sure make many people drool without knowing things properly). Do I think it is wrong? Well, they are just trying to survive...

 

Snobbery, Reverse Snobbery

 

NOTE: The following is merely illustrative. I am NOT calling Mont Blanc lovers or owners stupid, snobbish or bad. I am just illustrating a typical situation that occurs with any luxury brand that has a strong image.

 

 

Snob people are trying to look great and cool, to look that they belong to a certain sophisticated social group, of sophisticated taste, because they have this or that pen, or watch, or whatever. We laugh at them. We point out how stupid they are, how they believe in anything. We show how of a moron that snob guy is, thinking that he is the proud owner of something sophisticated while it is not. By asserting that we are clever, that we know a lot about FPs, that we are actually more sophisticated, aren't we being snobs as well? Aren't we being, in answer, snobbish, by pointing out that we are so sophisticated that we don't need these symbols, that we care for quality, that we are much above other people who, mistakenly, believe they own great things because of the fame of their brand?

 

How different is a fan of, let's say, Montegrappa (who is owned by one of these luxury conglomerates), from a fan of Mont Blanc?

 

Aren't we all being, in the end, snobs?

 

I'm posing this question. I haven't thought about it. I may be either wrong or right.

 

 

Hmmm...perhaps MB is closer to Bose than I realized, the main difference being that it has supporters among fountain pen aficionados, whereas Bose is universally despised. Another interesting comparison might be Wilson Audio, which sells speakers for tens and even hundreds of thousands of dollars, even though they are outperformed in objective measurements by a number of very affordable speakers. They don't have much sales volume, but in some circles they have plenty of prestige, hype, and supporters who claim that they're worth every penny. So called "high end" audio is just about the craziest fandom out there. Oh yeah, Monster Cable is another interesting comparison, although their products are generally of good build quality (they just don't perform any better than much less expensive products of reasonable quality).

 

Bose might be an interesting analogy. But Audiophilia certainly not. For audiophiles, generally (99% of the cases), the more expensive and fancy is a product, the best they rate, although they can not hear a damn difference. I would like to see blind tests...

Edited October 12, 2007 by Zwelig

[sleek_lover]

It's getting closer...

 

Hold on...

[coolpenz]

Bill...

 

Let it fly... I think we're all ready

[Bennington1967]

I'm not going to get involved in arguing because with people like you it's beating a dead horse.

 

Mark Lavar, and with people like you it's waiting until the admins ban you again from promulgating your wisdom that has poisoned many a thread here. :roflmho:

 

 

Dupontfan,

 

You know what? You're full of it - and you know very well what of. :roflmho:

[Bennington1967]

Why would owners of say high end Watermans and Parkers be jealous of Montblanc? As you said yourself, Montblancs "isn't a particuarly expensive brand." Most of their regular production pens seem to have street prices between $250 and $500. Compared to Edson, Serenite, almost all Conways, M1000, Duofolds, etc., they don't specially stand out in terms of price. But if you are talking about people who know nothing about pens, then perhaps you have a point.

 

I really referred to people who are 'guys in the street', not pen experts.

 

In relative terms, I think Rolex is much higher priced in the watch world then Montblanc is in the pen world. But you are right, they are both often used to show success to others, mostly financial success. I don't want to come across as an elitist snob here, but you see that practice more among professions where the profession itself is no sign of success. For instance, being a salesman of a mundane product will impress no one. But a prolific salesman may want to show off his success with expensive pens and jewelry. Doctors, physicist, or professors, for example, are less likely to show off with such things, because very few of the people they interact with would be impressed by them.

 

I agree. I can't deny that the MB brand has been taken up by the 'nouveau riche'.

 

 

I think we mostly agree. I think as you mention in another post, Montblanc has indeed been very careful about grooming and maintaining a certain image. Contrast this to Pelikan which sells $3000 LEs and $200-500 Souverans alongside $15 Pelikanos. You won't see any $20 pens from Montblnac BMW has used a similar strategy in the U.S. For instance, in the U.S. we get only the two top engine choices and the cars come fairly loaded, whereas you can still get weak 4-cylinders in Europe, and not too long ago, you could even get a 3-series with rollup windows. Imagine what importing such models would do to BMW's upscale image in the U.S. :roflmho:

 

I think people who get riled up by Montblanc are mostly ticked off by the luxury/upscale image nurtured by the company. And I think they are actually not that many of them. Most of us don't care either way.

 

 

True, but, as you may have noticed, there are those who like to use forums such as this one to initiate lengthy and, frankly, pointless campaigns of invective directed against Montblanc and anyone who dares to express his liking of that brand. I find this puerile and childish. I happen to like Montblanc and couldn't give a damn that it doesn't produce any kids' fountain pens -why the hell hould they? I am not interested in buying a $20 pen. I like Montblanc pens for what they are, not for any image, and if I were to care for the image, an image of success can't be bad, can it?