Scum floating in ink?!?

[hbquikcomjamesl]

With both of my affected pens, I cavitated the nibs until no more visible ink leached out into the water, and at least two cycles beyond that. And I did the same (one by holding the water-filled barrel against my Sonicare toothbrush, the other by holding it [again, water-filled] with the section immersed in the ultrasonic cleaner, and moving it around to avoid having any one point on the pen body right at the water surface, at least two cycles beyond the point where no more ink leached into the water.

[Paul-in-SF]

2 hours ago, LizEF said:

Do you not have an ultrasonic?  A cycle in one of those is usually about 2 minutes...

 

Yes, I do. The cycles on mine run from less than 2 up to 8 minutes. My understanding about ebonite and exposure to water could be wrong, but in the right (or wrong) circumstances, even brief exposure to water can turn the color of the ebonite, due to previous exposure to air. This is an old pen, over 90 years old, and I have to assume that it is vulnerable to this kind of change. 

 

I'm going to see what I can find out about ways to remove the nib and feed for this kind of feed, and try what I can do with it. If I can get them out, then that should take care of any worry about the section. I don't care much if the ebonite feed changes color. 

 

Edited to add: I am back to report success. I wiggled the nib out from the front, which reduced the pressure against the feed, and I was able to very gently push the nib backwards until I could grip it with soft plyers and pull it the rest of the way out. (I wanted to press the front of the nib against something with some give to it, so I took a couple of grippy cloths and folded them into fourths, and used that as a pad between the nib and my desk top. Happy to say it worked.)

[Astronymus]

If your ink is, say, imperial blue and it gets scum. - Is it rebel scum then?

 

Sorry, I couldn't hold this one back. I tried.

[LizEF]

26 minutes ago, Paul-in-SF said:

My understanding about ebonite and exposure to water could be wrong, but in the right (or wrong) circumstances, even brief exposure to water can turn the color of the ebonite, due to previous exposure to air. This is an old pen, over 90 years old, and I have to assume that it is vulnerable to this kind of change

Hmm. Sorry. My experience won't answer this issue. Wishing you luck and someone with the right experience.

[hbquikcomjamesl]

33 minutes ago, Astronymus said:

If your ink is, say, imperial blue and it gets scum. - Is it rebel scum then?

That belongs in the "Bad Jokes" thread. Because it fits the thread better than a lot of what's been showing up there lately.

[Dillo]

6 hours ago, Paul-in-SF said:

 

I have read the thread, including your multi-step process. I may be wrong, but this seems focused mainly on modern pens. I wonder if the same issues apply to celluloid pens? That is, is celluloid any more resistant or vulnerable to those household cleaning anti-mold products than modern plastics? 

 

As I said, I don't want to put the section, containing the nib and feed, in any kind of long-term bath solution because I believe it is made of ebonite, which is likely to turn from shiny black to rusty brown if I do. Removing a Lucky Curve feed from a section is notoriously difficult, because it has to come out from the back instead of being knocked out through the front; so difficult that (I recently learned) repair people used to routinely cut off the Lucky Curve extension off the feed (something I am not interested in doing). 

 

Since no plastics are involved in the section/nib/feed unit. I think I will be safe blasting through it with a dilute ammonia solution through a bulb syringe, repeatedly, and then rinsing it all clean with water and a little dish soap, then pure water. As I said, the inside of the barrel and the other components were not involved as far as I can tell, since the sac was intact. 

 

It was actually meant for all pens, old and new. If you are sonicating hard rubber, sometimes I put some ice cubes in the bath. Celluloid is especially vulnerable to anything ammonia in the environment. This is why I advise to avoid it even if the grip is hard rubber. Most of the pens I deal with are much much older, and I use these processes to clean them when restoring them. I do not recommend taking the feed or nib out of that grip section if you are not comfortable with it. You can do the process with them all in place and do it quickly in an ice bath to be safe and you will be generally be fine. Grip sections usually are intact because they are covered and not exposed to light as much. 

 

The only time when I've seen significant color lift off on hard rubber was when the water was quite warm/hot, and I've done a lot of work on pens made of vintage hard rubber

 

Don't use dish soap. It encourages vigorous mold growth. Mold especially enjoys feeding on the soap molecules. Once you are done, fill the pen up with a known good ink. That should take care of the rest of the issues for you.

[Paul-in-SF]

On 4/16/2025 at 3:15 PM, Dillo said:

Don't use dish soap. It encourages vigorous mold growth. Mold especially enjoys feeding on the soap molecules.

 

I would be interested in seeing some authority that confirms this would be an issue, and that explains which ingredient(s) in dish soap that mold would enjoy feeding on. 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

That's also the first time I saw that bit of advice.

 

But really, the only reason why you'd be using dish soap, hand soap, laundry detergent, or any other surfactant is to remove lipids, hydrocarbons, or other nonpolar organics. And if you're putting any of those in a fountain pen, then you probably need professional help, and the pen might need it as well.

[Dillo]

The particular mold that grows in pens seems to go after the sodium lauryl sulfate and sodium laureth sulfate. Back when, earlier in the hobby, it was common for people to try to add dish detergents to their inks to improve flow. This practice was quickly discontinued when many of these inks all started vigorously growing organisms in the bottle. Most dish detergents use sodium lauryl sulfate and sodium laureth sulfate which is a surfactant molecule with a long, fatty tail. When you see things like soap scum, it's caused by the breakdown of these molecules. Incidentally, that's also what these critters seem to like to eat. These two are usually synthesized from coconut and palm oil. Some people have occasionally used dish soap to clean pens, but it should be done quickly and rinsed out completely. My preference is usually for plain water. I have also used Rapidoeze to clean pens or strip manufacturing oils. It is safe for hard rubber and I've used it with celluloid. Dish detergent is not effective against mold, but it is useful for removing oily substances like manufacturing oils. In your case you have mold, so I would recommend something else because dish detergent is not made or very effective in this use case.

[LizEF]

39 minutes ago, Dillo said:

This practice was quickly discontinued

No, it's alive and well.

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Hmm. I wonder what the surfactant is in Photoflo . . .

[LizEF]

22 minutes ago, hbquikcomjamesl said:

Hmm. I wonder what the surfactant is in Photoflo . . .

Photo-flo, Liquitex, Vanness White Lightning - I'm wondering what it is in all of them.

[Dillo]

9 hours ago, LizEF said:

No, it's alive and well.

That's interesting to hear. It was frowned upon, at least for a time

 

From what I understand, PhotoFlo contains Triton-X. It tends to go off due to mold or biological growth if it is mixed with water to create a working solution

[YujaConway]

This is a very helpful post to me, I've had some bad luck with mold recently because of rainstorms in my area, thankfully not on the feed though. I had some further questions:

 

1.  I somehow got lucky and found two places where I could buy CMIT/MIT. @Dillo what concentration do you use? Am researching how to handle it, but do you have any tips based on your personal experience?
2. Would soaking the pens in biocide be an alternative to using the ultrasonic cleaner? Could the biocide substitute for a pen flush?
3. I understand that the liquid being used in an ultrasonic cleaner can get warm; is there a temperature threshold to aim for? 
4. What steps should be taken in case of a not-so-severe breakout of mold in a pen?
5. In the case of urushi pens, are these steps still applicable? Because from what I've picked up, ultrasonic cleaners are a no-no for urushi

[Dillo]

The concentration does vary depending on the formula. It seems to me that certain formulas have more issues. That said, I haven't messed with the stuff in a long time. From what I've heard, 15ppm is generally what is used in many applications where there are things you can come in contact with.

 

It is possible to soak the pen in a solution, but don't go crazy. I would keep to the 15ppm concentration.

 

Also, the last thing is the stuff is a real allergen. People can get some pretty severe contact dermatitis from the stuff, so a lot of care is needed when handling it

 

In an ultrasonic cleaner, I avoid going above 30ºC in general. You want to keep heat down when putting pens in there.

 

I believe for 4, I would clean the pen in an ultrasonic cleaner, removing the nib and feed if possible to clear out any solid pieces. Do several rinses with water, then you can fill the pen with a known good ink like Pelikan Royal Blue and let it sit in there.

 

Urushi is fine in an ultrasonic cleaner unless you have Raden or Zogan (inlay). Avoid putting anything with inlayed metal, shell, or other material in an ultrasonic cleaner. This goes for plastic pens like the Parker 61 and other pens with inlays regardless of whether it has urushi or not. Urushi is very very tough and can withstand ultrasonic cleaning without any issues. It's the inlays that are going to get damaged in there. Also make sure that the Urushi is layered over hard rubber or plastic. If it's on either of these two, you shouldn't have problems. If it's on wood, wood should never be in the ultrasonic cleaner

[SamCapote]

On 12/22/2024 at 8:42 AM, LizEF said:

Pictures would help.  Could be a clingy ink, could be "slime mold" or other biological.

 

ETA: Here's a spreadsheet I'm keeping of mold-related posts on reddit (mostly).  You could look at the slime ones and see how their photos compare.

 

Liz, if you are still doing this, you may want to add my De Atramentis mold contamination thread here:
 

 

[SamCapote]

On 4/16/2025 at 12:01 AM, LizEF said:

Start here:

 

 

Personally, I would use Phenol as a biocide--even in an ultrasonic since it was safely & effectively used in many inks back in the day before it was restricted.

 

 

[LizEF]

7 hours ago, SamCapote said:

 

Liz, if you are still doing this, you may want to add my De Atramentis mold contamination thread here:
 

 

Thank you!  Your thread has been added to the library!