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Scum floating in ink?!?


hbquikcomjamesl

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I just refilled my green crown-top M200, and found some sort of scum attached to the nib when I pulled it out.

 

Anybody else ever experienced this?

 

It's the bottle of Taccia "Midori" that I bought a few years ago, when Sheaffer green had turned turquoise, and Pelikan 4001 green wasn't in stock at Art Supply Warehouse.

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James H. H. Lampert

Professional Dilettante

 

Posted Image was once a bottle of ink

Inky, Dinky, Thinky, Inky,

Blacky minky, Bottle of ink! -- Edward Lear

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21 minutes ago, hbquikcomjamesl said:

Too late to get a picture; at the time, I was more interested in getting a paper towel.

:lol: Well, if you still have the ink in the bottle, and something other than a pen to drag through it, you can stage a photo at some future time...

 

If you think it was biological, an ammonia pen flush would be warranted (unless it's a TWSBI Eco, in which case, use vinegar or bleach - apparently ammonia can damage that ultra-clear plastic).

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46 minutes ago, LizEF said:

If you think it was biological, an ammonia pen flush would be warranted (unless it's a TWSBI Eco, in which case, use vinegar or bleach - apparently ammonia can damage that ultra-clear plastic).

 

I don't recommend vinegar in any pen flushes for any pens. Many plastics actually have very poor resistance to acetic acid and vinegar. It is especially bad with PMMA (what Pelikan piston fillers are often made of), ABS, POM, and Nylon. I discovered this when checking my chemical resistance tables after I found a pen destroyed after someone used vinegar to clean it. Ammonia does not play well with polycarbonate or ultem and is not good for ABS. There are biocides I've used in the past to soak these things in to get rid of them. CMIT/MIT is a common one

 

If you need to, I usually clean parts of the pen in an ultrasonic cleaner with a detergent and rinse well. You want to get any solids or other pieces out. In all cases, I have not had any recurrence of the growth, especially after another ink is used.

Stolen: Aurora Optima Demonstrator Red ends Medium nib. Serial number 1216 and Aurora 98 Cartridge/Converter Black bark finish (Archivi Storici) with gold cap. Reward if found. Please contact me if you have seen these pens.

Please send vial orders and other messages to fpninkvials funny-round-mark-thing gmail strange-mark-thing com. My shop is open once again if you need help with your pen.

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24 minutes ago, Dillo said:

I don't recommend vinegar in any pen flushes for any pens. Many plastics actually have very poor resistance to acetic acid and vinegar. It is especially bad with PMMA (what Pelikan piston fillers are often made of), ABS, POM, and Nylon. I discovered this when checking my chemical resistance tables after I found a pen destroyed after someone used vinegar to clean it. Ammonia does not play well with polycarbonate or ultem and is not good for ABS. There are biocides I've used in the past to soak these things in to get rid of them. CMIT/MIT is a common one

 

If you need to, I usually clean parts of the pen in an ultrasonic cleaner with a detergent and rinse well. You want to get any solids or other pieces out. In all cases, I have not had any recurrence of the growth, especially after another ink is used.

Thanks, @Dillo!  Appreciate you sharing your experience.  Does "CMIT/MIT" come in / as a product the average consumer can purchase readily?  (Cuz there are a lot of people who encounter mold in their pens - at least, there are on reddit. :lol: )

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MIT is Methylisothiazolinone. The solution is sometimes sold as Kathon. I'm not sure if it's something a consumer can really buy. It can cause allergic reactions, so it has to be handled carefully. I'm pretty sure it is used in a lot of inks to control biological growth.

 

I've seen it available as an additive here: https://greenherbology.com/product/cmit-mit-kathon/ I can't vouch for the quality. I think this place sells it from China. It's an additive used in cosmetics, so you may be able to find it using such routes.

 

In the lab, we use ultrasonics to blast open cells, so that's why I generally just use the ultrasonic cleaner bath for things like this.

Stolen: Aurora Optima Demonstrator Red ends Medium nib. Serial number 1216 and Aurora 98 Cartridge/Converter Black bark finish (Archivi Storici) with gold cap. Reward if found. Please contact me if you have seen these pens.

Please send vial orders and other messages to fpninkvials funny-round-mark-thing gmail strange-mark-thing com. My shop is open once again if you need help with your pen.

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5 hours ago, Dillo said:

MIT is Methylisothiazolinone. The solution is sometimes sold as Kathon. I'm not sure if it's something a consumer can really buy. It can cause allergic reactions, so it has to be handled carefully. I'm pretty sure it is used in a lot of inks to control biological growth.

 

I've seen it available as an additive here: https://greenherbology.com/product/cmit-mit-kathon/ I can't vouch for the quality. I think this place sells it from China. It's an additive used in cosmetics, so you may be able to find it using such routes.

 

In the lab, we use ultrasonics to blast open cells, so that's why I generally just use the ultrasonic cleaner bath for things like this.

OK, first, thank you.  Your comments have prompted me to update the tips in the mold post library.  That said:

 

You may have access to a lab with its supplies and equipment, but the vast majority of FP users don't.  So, I'm coming at this from the perspective of folks who don't.  Second, when I name chemicals, I mean the commonly available stuff as found (diluted) in the US (e.g. "ammonia" is never more concentrated than 10%, vinegar is generally 5%, etc.).

 

Now, with that background: Would the sorts of ultrasonic cleaners available to the average joe (as opposed to lab grade sonicators) be sufficient to "blast open cells", or does one need a stronger (industrial, perhaps, if not lab grade) ultrasonic cleaner (or are you talking about a different piece of equipment for generating strong enough ultrasonic waves)?  Cuz if we can just tell people to go get a $40 ultrasonic cleaner off Amazon and run their pen through that with soapy water, that's a whole lot better than arguing over which chemical to use. :)

 

But if that's not enough, then, if MIT is the safest thing to use for all pen materials, that doesn't help a single soul if only lab folks can get it, or it's difficult to get, dangerous, or extremely expensive.  The fact is, folks get mold growing in their pens.  These folks need to clean it out of their pens and have some confidence they're not going to infect a bottle of ink or other pens the next time they fill the formerly contaminated pen.  I compile the information I see online and share what other FP users have said.  I've started including links to these things, but a lot of it was collected before I started keeping the links (though one can find all this via web searches of FP sites).  I've also shared some general "cleaning mold found in your house" info because that is the only sort I can find outside the FP community other than scientific papers that go way over my head.

 

Now, all that said, since I'm assuming it's just not going to be possible for folks around the world to get this MIT stuff, and since you're a lab person who seems to know what they're talking about more than most of us (a fact that I welcome), what is your best recommendation for folks who want their pen free of mold and don't have access to lab chemicals or equipment?  (Cuz I would love to add it to my "library" - I've already linked in two of your comments in this thread.)

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Hmm.

 

The scum kind of reminded me of an episode of Good Eats, the one on vinegar ("Good Wine Gone Bad," season 9, episode 9) the scene where a vinegar-maker introduces Alton to his "mother."

 

At any rate, the pen was starting a bit hard, and writing really dry, so I went to add more ink, and this thing that looked like a vinegar "mother" was hanging from the nib. I did the old spaghetti thing so I could get it into the kitchen without dropping it on the floor, pull it off with a paper towel, and then wipe off the nib.

 

It could be that the slow starting was some kind of fungal infection already in the pen. 😱

--

James H. H. Lampert

Professional Dilettante

 

Posted Image was once a bottle of ink

Inky, Dinky, Thinky, Inky,

Blacky minky, Bottle of ink! -- Edward Lear

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@LizEF I can assure you that many of these plastics are tested in Ammonia concentrations and vinegar concentrations that are available for household use, and that is where my recommendations come from. This is because these plastics need to hold up to household use. The 10% ammonia concentration is commonly cited as harmful for those plastics. Vinegar is a well known incompatible chemical with many fountain pen plastics as well. That is why I note it. I have plenty of chemical resistance charts, and they don't always agree fully, but they're pretty close. You can download chemical resistance charts freely because a lot of places that sell plastics will provided them for free to help you figure out the right plastic for your application. They often test various concentrations but will almost always include commonly available household concentrations because that is what these things may be exposed to the most.

 

I don't have access to a lab frequently in the past decade where I can do anything pen related. I get whatever CMIT/MIT I can get from other side channels. That said, my supply is really dwindling, and even I haven't used it lately (in the past decade) and haven't had trouble with mold regrowth. That's also why I don't have sources to give you for it at this time.

 

Most any ultrasonic cleaners that are available, if used properly can do what I describe. In fact the industrial model I am currently using is made to sweep waves so it doesn't burn things that are not as fully immersed. When using an ultrasonic cleaner, make sure that the pen parts are fully immersed and do NOT stick your fingers in when it is running. I've had cases where the cheap ultrasonic cleaners caused burns on the edges of materials that were not fully submerged. I do not get this any longer with my newer model (I guess you could say it's gentler in this sense). Most of them, even the little drugstore ones are sufficient enough to blast cells apart, cause gemstones to crack, and cause other damage if used improperly. Interestingly enough, most of the damage from improper use cases I have seen were from drug store ones that weren't used properly. They have a lot of power, and generally speaking will be sufficient to do what you need to do. Following this, you can fill the pen with a different, known good ink. Most inks contain CMIT/MIT inside from what I understand, and this may prevent anything further from growing.

 

My current personal procedure for heavily contaminated pens with solids inside or fuzzy growth is:

  1. Pull the nib and feed and wash away as much of the solid debris as possible. If you can unscrew the nib unit, do that as well so you can clean any ink or growth between the grip and nib unit out.
  2. A half hour bath in the ultrasonic (sometimes I use a dilute Rapidoeze solution for this first run-key word is dilute-for regular pen cleaning. You can substitute with any pen flush you can buy, but just make sure there's no ammonia or vinegar or something like that. Be careful with the stuff. Rapidoeze and some pen flushes are STRONG)
  3. Flushing to get rid of any solid debris (sometimes I put the feed and nib back in the grip section and use a rubber bulb to flush them out).
  4. Another half hour bath in the ultrasonic. Often I don't put the grip and nib unit through this round.
  5. Another water flush to remove any left over debris
  6. A third half hour bath
  7. A final water flush
  8. Inspection to make sure all the debris is gone from the feed channels and fins with a loupe and bright light. A loupe was the best investment. A little folding one for looking at gemstones is perfect and you can sometimes find them cheap. Don't need to go too fancy
  9. I always ink it again with a known good ink that generally has no reports of this issue (this delivers the biocide). I often use a Royal Blue from Montblanc or Pelikan. I do like the color, and they are also reliable inks for these purposes

 

I hope this is helpful in some way. I think it should be fairly doable by most people. It took me a little to collect my thoughts since at times I do live in my own little world HAHAHA Do ask for more clarification

Stolen: Aurora Optima Demonstrator Red ends Medium nib. Serial number 1216 and Aurora 98 Cartridge/Converter Black bark finish (Archivi Storici) with gold cap. Reward if found. Please contact me if you have seen these pens.

Please send vial orders and other messages to fpninkvials funny-round-mark-thing gmail strange-mark-thing com. My shop is open once again if you need help with your pen.

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46 minutes ago, Dillo said:

I can assure you that many of these plastics are tested in Ammonia concentrations and vinegar concentrations that are available for household use, and that is where my recommendations come from.

I'm not disagreeing with you.  (I wouldn't know either way.)  I'm asking for better advice to give to folks who have mold problems. :)  (Replying as I read and guessing that's to come - pre-thanks!)

 

47 minutes ago, Dillo said:

You can download chemical resistance charts freely because a lot of places that sell plastics will provided them for free to help you figure out the right plastic for your application.

Pen manufacturers don't make it easy for the "lay" person to know what kind of plastic their pen is made of - it's not on the packaging, it's not on retailer websites.  I don't think it's practical for every pen user to contact the manufacturer and ask for details - though if that's the only answer, I'll include it (I've already included something like it).

 

49 minutes ago, Dillo said:

Most any ultrasonic cleaners that are available, if used properly can do what I describe. ...

Excellent!  I'll highlight this as a strong recommendation.  (It's such a useful tool to have anyway, and very popular for cleaning.)

 

50 minutes ago, Dillo said:

Following this, you can fill the pen with a different, known good ink. Most inks contain CMIT/MIT inside from what I understand, and this may prevent anything further from growing.

Oh!  This is great info.  I never considered using a known-good ink to help kill mold that may be in a pen.  One could use a pipette or syringe rather than dipping a "contaminated" pen in the ink bottle.  As I understand it, Japanese inks are considered to have strong biocide doses.  Don't know if that's true, but it's commonly claimed...

 

51 minutes ago, Dillo said:

My current personal procedure for heavily contaminated pens with solids inside or fuzzy growth is: ...

Thank you!  I will add this and a link back here to the library as a recommended procedure.

 

53 minutes ago, Dillo said:

I hope this is helpful in some way. I think it should be fairly doable by most people. It took me a little to collect my thoughts since at times I do live in my own little world HAHAHA Do ask for more clarification

No worry about the timing.  I sincerely appreciate you taking the time.  This is very helpful.  Practical steps that anyone who can afford an ultrasonic cleaner can follow, and some reassurance that using a known-good ink1 will help to kill off anything that escaped all the prior cleaning. :)

 

1Maybe not Monteverde and other little boutiques, because even if they've mostly solved their problems, Monteverde still caries the nickname Moldeverde. :(

 

The folks on reddit tend to get a little panicky - sometimes in jest, but some of them seem really distressed by mold.  I think it's probably the fact that on average they're quite young and don't have much experience with mold elsewhere, or with other "contamination" types.  Knowledge and experience help to remove such distress from the equation, and I'm happy to give them the real life knowledge and experience of someone with a lab background!

 

Thanks again and a very Merry Christmas and mold-free New Year to you! :D

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Yes, Japanese inks do have some pretty interesting things in them. I think more recently they have stopped using Phenol. I think some of them use a different formulation than western inks do. The most important is that it works, because whatever they use does.

 

One interesting thing with pen materials, is that on the Sailor Japan site they actually list what the pens are made of. Some of them I've figured out using more destructive testing to figure things out. Usually because it's hard to tell what they use, I think it's best to be cautious, especially around pens that you care about. Sometimes companies do say it somewhere in interviews or communication when people tour the place. Other times, the material has a bit of a familiar signature to it that makes it easier to identify. Sometimes there are surprises because I have a suspicion that the Lamy Vista is not the same plastic as the Safari is. Other weird stuff is that the colorants change some of the material properties. One thing I usually do is avoid anything that will damage ABS because I discovered through testing and otherwise that most plastic feeders are made from ABS (some are made from lucite as well). Lamy, Sailor, JoWo, Bock, and a few others have also told me their feeds are ABS.

 

Common plastics pen parts are made of include polycarbonate (Lamy 2000 has a fiberglass filled type, TWSBI Vac, TWSBI Diamond), ABS (Lamy Safari, some Kaweco Sport), PMMA (Pelikan, Aurora, and some Sailors, Parker "51"), AS (some Platinum pens), Polystyrene (can be brittle, so not as common), Ultem (usually hyped up so if you have one you know), PEEK (same deal as Ultem). There's probably something I missed, but that's what I could pull off the top of my head. I don't know what Pilot uses for their feeds.

Stolen: Aurora Optima Demonstrator Red ends Medium nib. Serial number 1216 and Aurora 98 Cartridge/Converter Black bark finish (Archivi Storici) with gold cap. Reward if found. Please contact me if you have seen these pens.

Please send vial orders and other messages to fpninkvials funny-round-mark-thing gmail strange-mark-thing com. My shop is open once again if you need help with your pen.

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9 minutes ago, Dillo said:

Yes, Japanese inks do have some pretty interesting things in them. I think more recently they have stopped using Phenol. I think some of them use a different formulation than western inks do. The most important is that it works, because whatever they use does.

Thanks for confirming!

 

10 minutes ago, Dillo said:

One interesting thing with pen materials, is that on the Sailor Japan site they actually list what the pens are made of.

Oh, that's interesting.  I'll remind folks to check out the manufacturer's website. :)

 

13 minutes ago, Dillo said:

Some of them I've figured out using more destructive testing to figure things out. Usually because it's hard to tell what they use, I think it's best to be cautious, especially around pens that you care about. Sometimes companies do say it somewhere in interviews or communication when people tour the place. Other times, the material has a bit of a familiar signature to it that makes it easier to identify. Sometimes there are surprises because I have a suspicion that the Lamy Vista is not the same plastic as the Safari is. Other weird stuff is that the colorants change some of the material properties. One thing I usually do is avoid anything that will damage ABS because I discovered through testing and otherwise that most plastic feeders are made from ABS (some are made from lucite as well). Lamy, Sailor, JoWo, Bock, and a few others have also told me their feeds are ABS

Good point on the converters, and frankly, all the more reason to use your method so you don't have to concern yourself with the pen's materials.

 

Do you know if Rapido-Eze is safe for celluloid (as found in vintage pens) and ebonite (popular in some feeds and many Indian pens)?  Those seem to be the two most common "unusual" materials people mention.  (Either way, I'm leaving my warnings for folks to do their research first! :)  I don't want anyone yelling at me when they ruin their delicate vintage pen...)

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I have used Rapidoeze with both, but I recommend some caution around celluloid in general. I only use it with celluloid in the more extreme circumstances and in a diluted and cooler solution. I have also used it as a spot cleaning thing with celluloid. Even in the past I haven't seen any damage, even with fairly aggressive cleaning with Rapidoeze, but you never know what condition the pen is in and what the material has been through before you got the pen. Rapidoeze is fine with ebonite. Ebonite is a pretty chemical resistant material actually. With ebonite though, I ultrasonic clean it in an ice bath usually whether or not I'm using Rapidoeze. Hot water can cause UV exposed ebonite to discolor.

Stolen: Aurora Optima Demonstrator Red ends Medium nib. Serial number 1216 and Aurora 98 Cartridge/Converter Black bark finish (Archivi Storici) with gold cap. Reward if found. Please contact me if you have seen these pens.

Please send vial orders and other messages to fpninkvials funny-round-mark-thing gmail strange-mark-thing com. My shop is open once again if you need help with your pen.

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2 minutes ago, Dillo said:

I have used Rapidoeze with both, but I recommend some caution around celluloid in general. I only use it with celluloid in the more extreme circumstances and in a diluted and cooler solution. I have also used it as a spot cleaning thing with celluloid. Even in the past I haven't seen any damage, even with fairly aggressive cleaning with Rapidoeze, but you never know what condition the pen is in and what the material has been through before you got the pen. Rapidoeze is fine with ebonite. Ebonite is a pretty chemical resistant material actually. With ebonite though, I ultrasonic clean it in an ice bath usually whether or not I'm using Rapidoeze. Hot water can cause UV exposed ebonite to discolor.

Thank you, so much!  I sincerely appreciate you sharing your experience.  I'll note that the thread includes additional info for folks who have either material!

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The pen in question is a Pelikan M200 (crown-top). For now, I'm using it until the ink supply runs out. Anybody know what antifungal agents are compatible with it?

 

Anybody know what (if any) antifungal agent(s) there are in Taccia ink?

 

I think there's still a bit of residual scum floating on the stuff in the bottle, but not anything like the "mother" I pulled out.

 

Typically, when I'm cleaning a nib, I stick it in a paper cup of water, and then apply the business end of my Sonicare toothbrush to the outside of the cup, but I do have an ultrasonic cleaner around the house (a cheap one, from Harbor Freight, which I bought for cavitating the crud off of really dirty Ludlow matrices). It's big enough to cavitate a nib (and maybe a cap), but not even remotely big enough to cavitate an assembled pen barrel.

--

James H. H. Lampert

Professional Dilettante

 

Posted Image was once a bottle of ink

Inky, Dinky, Thinky, Inky,

Blacky minky, Bottle of ink! -- Edward Lear

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I just thought of something: I have a spray bottle of a fungicidal cleaner that was very specifically recommended by the contractor that did my new tub-surround last year, and I think the cleaning instruction sheet they gave me came straight from the manufacturer of the material. I'll look at what's in the stuff tonight, and report back, but I'm pretty sure the tub surround material is poly-methyl-methacrylate-based.

 

And of course, I also have some nearly-200-proof isopropanol on hand, for cleaning magnetic read/write heads and so forth, along with some 140-proof isopropanol prep-swabs (I'd have to be type-1 diabetic to go through those any faster than I do; they're remarkably useful for general cleaning).

 

Oh, and I have some 3% H202.

--

James H. H. Lampert

Professional Dilettante

 

Posted Image was once a bottle of ink

Inky, Dinky, Thinky, Inky,

Blacky minky, Bottle of ink! -- Edward Lear

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Here is what I would advise for your Pelikan when it's time for cleaning. Take the nib out and follow the instructions I have provided with the ultrasonic. This will get it back into cleaned order generally. The Harbor Freight should be more than enough to do what you need without any issue whatsoever.

 

For the barrel, you really don't want to put that in the ultrasonic cleaner or soak it in water in any fashion. The way you clean that is you fill it with water, run the piston up and down, and use a cotton swab to see if you get any solids out. If there's no solids or residue in there, I'd advance the piston, give it a bit of a wipe down and a few rinses and leave it.

 

Stay away from isopropanol. That stuff dissolves Pelikans. I know of someone who did that and welded the parts of their M200 permanently and the rest of the pen looked melted. I don't think you need the fungicide either, take a picture of the label or give me a brand and formula and I might be able to look it up for you.

 

The Taccia ink should have biocides inside, but sometimes they react with the dyes and other ingredients in the ink or aren't in the right concentrations, rendering them weak or ineffective. I'd suspect something like CMIT/MIT since it is very very common.

Stolen: Aurora Optima Demonstrator Red ends Medium nib. Serial number 1216 and Aurora 98 Cartridge/Converter Black bark finish (Archivi Storici) with gold cap. Reward if found. Please contact me if you have seen these pens.

Please send vial orders and other messages to fpninkvials funny-round-mark-thing gmail strange-mark-thing com. My shop is open once again if you need help with your pen.

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1 hour ago, Dillo said:

Stay away from isopropanol. That stuff dissolves Pelikans.

😲Remarkable. Only material I'm aware of for which the simple alcohols are solvent-cements would be shellac.

 

Your procedure seems to be a more intensive version of my usual cleaning procedure. Although as I recall, the Harbor Freight unit is on a fixed 2-minute duty-cycle, the same as my toothbrush.

 

And I've left myself a note to look at the stuff and report back. I finally remembered what it is: Microban 24 bathroom cleaner, "fresh scent."

--

James H. H. Lampert

Professional Dilettante

 

Posted Image was once a bottle of ink

Inky, Dinky, Thinky, Inky,

Blacky minky, Bottle of ink! -- Edward Lear

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