F or M nib?

[Kaan146]

Hi,

Several years ago I purchased a well used 146 LeGrande .. It was in perfect condition..  but the seller told me the nib was F .. but a few days ago my pen had a writing issue and I went to MB service and representative said it is M nib.. but I think he was not so sure.. here are some pictures.. and writing samples.. can I have your opinions; thank you 

Edited March 31, 2024 by Kaan146

[Kaan146]

And some writing samples ..

[Kaan146]

Written in MB royal blue and midnight blue ink ..

[mke]

Can you measure the linesizes?

 

Extra Fine (EF) 0.43 mm.

Fine (F) 0.50 mm.

Medium (M) 0.62 mm.

Broad (B) 0.92 mm.

 

from: https://www.montblanc.com/en-ae/sizeguide-nib.html

 

I don't get it why they cannot add the size information onto the nib.

[Carrau]

I compared to my 146 pens from the 1970s with medium nibs, and they look to be about the same size as yours, recognizing the limitations of such a comparison.  I have a 149 from the 1970s with a Fine nib that leans toward Medium.  I’m sure I’ve read on FPN that MB nibs can vary in width, so perhaps yours falls in between F-M.  Are you happy with the width of the line? 

[Mercian]

2 hours ago, Carrau said:

I compared to my 146 pens from the 1970s with medium nibs, and they look to be about the same size as yours, recognizing the limitations of such a comparison.  I have a 149 from the 1970s with a Fine nib that leans toward Medium.  I’m sure I’ve read on FPN that MB nibs can vary in width, so perhaps yours falls in between F-M.

 

 

My experience of e.g. Pelikan is that their nibs have varied in width over time. The ‘M’ nib on my early-1980s M400 is of a similar width to the ‘F’ nib on my M205 from 2012.

And it is much narrower than the ‘M’ nib on my M800 from 1990-92, which is similar in width to the ‘F’ nib of my M805 from 2020.

I conclude that Pelikan has been varying the widths to which it manufactures its different grades of nibs, and certainly to be wider than they were in the 1980s and previously.

 

My ‘vintage’ Parker pens also have narrower nibs than the nibs of the same marked grade on my most-modern Parkers.

 

I expect that this is an ‘industry-wide’ trend, and that Montblanc may have done the same thing (modern nibs being wider than equivalently-marked nibs that were made before, say, 1985).

 

2 hours ago, Carrau said:

 Are you happy with the width of the line? 

This ⬆️ is the only ‘data-point’ that matters!

And your experience with your 146  illustrates the importance/great value of trying-out different nib-widths of any pen (of any brand) in-store before you buy, if you can.

 

After all, if one is used to - and desires - a nib of the same width as that on my early-1980s Pelikan M400, one would nowadays find that one needed to buy a Pelikan whose nib is marked ‘EF’, rather than ‘M’.

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

You didn't show the writing part, the underside of the nib with the actual tipping...but I'd eyeball that as an F.

 

Every company has it's very own standards, and with in that standard is tolerance/slop. A fat F can equal exactly a skinny M.

And the standards can change over the eras.....I have some MB's that were @ the same width as Vintage('50-65('70-MB) and semi-vintage'70 late 90's MB/ '97 Pelikan. My B Virgina Woolf was a real fat B=BB. As fat as my Pelikan 600 BB (now a stubbed 1.0/B).

 

I've listed Ron Zorn's Shaffer nib sizes often before. If you wish, I'll do it again. He and Richard Binder were there when the factory closed. He was able to get Sheaffer standards...

There is a laser split hair between a Fat F and a Skinny M....and near by is too narrow to eyeball.

On 3/31/2024 at 5:16 PM, Mercian said:

And it is much narrower than the ‘M’ nib on my M800 from 1990-92, which is similar in width to the ‘F’ nib of my M805 from 2020.......added....a bit odd, in it should have been narrower.

At one time, pre-97, the 800 had it's very own width sizes, narrower than the 400 but still wider than then famous for narrow Waterman.

Somewhere I have a nib chart (lost in last decade's clutter)....pre-Japanese becoming main market instead of nitch.

Conway Stewart is by far the widest, then Parker, Sheaffer, (Yes, before double ball, Pelikan had a 'narrow' nib) 400 Pelikan, 800 Pelikan and the then famous narrow Waterman....it was found out later that Waterman had two sizes also, one Pelikan 400 width.

 

There were flame wars between change the nib Pelikan fans (and piston fans) and narrower than you Waterman fans. (CC)...pre-Japanese, back when it's market was it's island.

 

There was a time when the Metroplitan was nearly Chinese cheap...suddenly Waterman's fans lost it's narrow advantage over Pelikan, the Japanese got it's nose under the tent....and mismarked narrow is real narrow. When a F is actually a EF, and an EF is spiderweb.

The Japanese use a real tiny printed script, instead of the wide flowing cursive, so they late on the market (1912 start)  made the nib sizes for their tiny printed script.

[Bo Bo Olson]

 

Ron Zorn tolerance

Ron Zorn and Richard Binder visited the Sheaffer factory as it closed down.

Every company has it's very own  standard; usually for a good reason.

 

Parker makes or made a fatter nib than Sheaffer, so those who so wished or were so trained by their company of choice back in the day of One Man, One Pen.....(Chevy vs Ford)....to prevent a catastrophe....some Parker user, buying a Sheaffer for his pen of the decade. & vice versa. If Parker made a skinny nib like Sheaffer, why shouldn't a Parker fan not buy a Sheaffer pen...if they were the same width of nib. Such foolishness was avoided.

 

First you have to look at the Eras....Once Pelikan was narrower than both Parker and Sheaffer....Then in '98 Pelikan went over to fat blobby nibs....wider than Parker or Sheaffer. That was done so ball point users could use a fountain pen with out going through all that hassle of learning how to hold a fountain pen. And stiffer nibs that ball point users had a harder time springing or turning nibs into pretzels.

 

MB is also fatter now than it was in semi-vintage and vintage days. (which to me with out going AR is eyeball = to Pelikan or Geha.

 

And Japanese nibs are even narrower, than western vintage and semi-vintage days.

A Japanese poster said Sailor was the fattest Japanese nib, perhaps just a bit thinner  than pre 2010 Aurora (once the thinnest European nib.

I haven't tested a newer Aurora nib, but that was the @ end of the Aurora semi-flex era.)

 

Japanese nibs are one or more widths narrower than modern Western nibs. They have to be in they are designed for a tiny printed script; not flowing cursive of western nibs.

 

There is a big gap between sizes of western and Japanese nibs. Those who start with Japanese pens always think of Western nibs as fat.

Those of us who started with Western nibs, know Japanese nibs as skinnier than marked size.

 

Japanese nibs could well be 1/2 a width narrower than 'narrow'  Pelikan vintage or semi-vintage nibs......................I don't know if they are even narrower than that.  I had enough $ problems chasing German pens....so I don't have a Japanese pen, in I was never into narrow as was.

There were many flame wars once, my nib is narrower than yours....that slowed down..narrow was never my cup of lemon coffee. Oddly one never reads my wide nib is wider than yours...just narrower.

..................

Three companies, using their own standards plus tolerance means even with in the company it is only approximate and when compared to another company it's oranges vs tangerines, in each company has it's very own standard. Then drop in Japanese narrow nibs.

Someone's F could be another's EF; or M or so close measurement don't really matter. Call the others a real Skinny F or a real Fat F.

.....and the new number standard of 1.2-1.0-0.8 are just as off as the letter BB, B or M nib sizes are.

Even robot cut steel nibs from Lamy are off in constant width. (I did see the older larger machine....Goulet's vid, shows the smaller new one.)

There will be variance.....it is completely normal for three pens of the same width coming off the factory's line to be each a bit different.....and still be with in tolerance...skinny F, fat F, & normal F.

Tolerance is normal, in the AI's haven't taken over and removed slop.

 

IMO many people are too OCD and expect every F nib to be exactly the same, even if made from a different company, much less of different eras.

Those boring times are coming in the AI days, until then, enjoy a thick, regular and thin F................and the next company's F that has a different standard so as your normal company....will over lap what you consider 'normal in F vs M.

Nib width is either horseshoe or hand grenade close; only.

 .......................Ron Zorn's work............................

Sheaffer used a dial indicator nib gauge for measuring nib sizes. The nib was inserted into the gauge, and the size read off of the dial. A given size being nibs that fell within a given range. What is listed below were the ranges given on a gauge that I saw in the Sheaffer service center prior to being closed in March 2008.

Measurements are in thousandths of an inch.

XXF = 0.010 - 0.013
XF = 0.013 - 0.018
F = 0.018 - 0.025
M = 0.025 - 0.031
Broad* = 0.031 - 0.050
Stub = 0.038 - 0.050

*there was some overlap on the gauge. May be 0.035 - 0.050.

[Karmachanic]

Those nibs are ground by hand by highly trained, but notheless, faulty humans.  Hopefully not on Friday at 16:00hr.  Variance is to be expected.

[Fo0zle]

Looks like a fine, writes like a fine, quacks like a duck

[Bo Bo Olson]

Those who grew into fountain pens with western, an F is a somewhat narrow nib.

Those who grew into fountain pens with Japanese pens, a western F is a M or fatter....

A western EF =F in japan.

Those who started with Japanese will always thing of western as fat.

Those of us who started with western, think of Japanese as mismakred narrow.

 

Only those chasing narrow and very narrow worry about which is narrower.

 

Seldom hear of some M lover, saying my M is too fat or too narrow. It does happen.

Even more so for those who use B. and I've not heard that i can remember many complaints from B users.

 

Sigh cubed, I can't really tell if it quacks like a duck or a goose.