fountain newbie looking into dip pens / nibs

[fountain_new]

Let's be honest, I'm not going to learn Copperplate or anything.

 

But the whole dip thing looks very attractive, and the nibs look affordable. 

 

I mostly use my italic nibbed fountain pens to give a bit of character to my regular writing.

 

Is there any reason for me to give dip pens a try, or am I kidding myself?

Edited February 25 by fountain_new
typo

[PolarMoonman]

Speedball makes some very inexpensive ones and sells the India ink at a very reasonable price so I would start there.

 

I dabbled very briefly, making a quill from a seagull feather and I did enjoy it. But I find it tedious to always need the bottle of ink when a fountain pen holds the ink for me. 

[Penguincollector]

  I like dip nibs, and have quite a few. There are many beautiful italics to work with, if that’s your jam. I find them handy for using a color that I may not want to fill a pen with. I don’t use India ink or dip pen ink because I don’t want to have a potential fatal mishap with a fountain pen, as those inks have ingredients that will kill your pens. There are also some new dip pens from Sailor, Pilot, and other manufacturers that have been positively reviewed by pen users I know. 

[Stompie]

Writing with dip nibs is, for me, a most relaxing experience and I thoroughly enjoy using dip nibs. 

Be warned though that they can be even more cussed than any fountain pen you have ever heard of. 

A pointy nib can hook and snag your pages then flick ink all over the office!

If you do not prepare the nib properly it will most probably not even write as it has a factory oil coating on it that wont allow ink to flow.

If you exert too much pressure the ink may all rush down the nib and flood your page.

If you do not clean the nib nicely after use you may find it rusts and gets stuck in your holder which you then have to try to extract and possibly break the holder.

Fountain pen ink will not give you much joy unless you arabic gum it first.

 

Other than those few minor issues it really is a most relaxing way of writing! 🤣

[Estycollector]

On 2/24/2024 at 9:16 PM, fountain_new said:

Let's be honest, I'm not going to learn Copperplate or anything.

 

But the whole dip thing looks very attractive, and the nibs look affordable. 

 

I mostly use my italic nibbed fountain pens to give a bit of character to my regular writing.

 

Is there any reason for me to give dip pens a try, or am I kidding myself?

I did the same several years back. I used the ink on hand and found an inexpensive nib holder and several models of Esterbrook nibs. Then I wrote the granddaughters letters for which they much enjoyed. 

[arcfide]

Like brush and ink stick, if you want to talk about raw potential, there really isn't any way that a fountain pen can compare to the extremes that you can experience with a dip pen. The potential for expression, the range of inks you can use, the control, size of writing, flow, and so forth are all within your ultimate purview. But, with that kind of extreme potential comes the costs of manual effort and skill. The fountain pen is the grand tool that flattens the curve of writing with a liquid ink via capillary action. Almost anyone can learn to use a fountain pen to good effect. The training required to use a dip pen is much greater, and most people do not presently have the time and patience to get the results that might impress other people or make it a viable/practical tool. 

 

However, as a tool for experiencing the joy and love of writing, there are few that can compare. The fountain pen is a more practical tool, but if you want to extend your enjoyment into a range of inks that include shimmering and permanent inks, the fountain pen is a much more fickle friend. If you want to explore the range of writing styles, such as Copperplate, Spencerian, Palmer, Italic, Textualis/Gothic, or Carolingian, the ease and accessibility the dip pen provides far exceeds that of the fountain pen. 

 

Fortunately, dip pens are very easy to get, and easy to try, at very little expense. 

[fountain_new]

3 hours ago, arcfide said:

The training required to use a dip pen is much greater, and most people do not presently have the time and patience to get the results that might impress other people or make it a viable/practical tool. 

 

However, as a tool for experiencing the joy and love of writing, there are few that can compare. The fountain pen is a more practical tool, but if you want to extend your enjoyment into a range of inks that include shimmering and permanent inks, the fountain pen is a much more fickle friend. If you want to explore the range of writing styles, such as Copperplate, Spencerian, Palmer, Italic, Textualis/Gothic, or Carolingian, the ease and accessibility the dip pen provides far exceeds that of the fountain pen. 

 

Fortunately, dip pens are very easy to get, and easy to try, at very little expense. 

Thank you very much for your reply. I really appreciate it. 

 

I have zero interest in or expectation of impressing anybody or making any money or anything like that. 

 

That said, did I understand right? You think that even if it's "just for me," just at the level of practicing, learning a bit about different styles, maybe incorporating this or that into regular writing...it might be worth a shot?

 

@Estycollector @Stompie @Penguincollector @PolarMoonman Thank you all for your replies, too!

[AAAndrew]

I may have an opinion. 🙂

 

I began as just dip-pen-curious about 8 years ago. When I started there was very little information about the pens, how you use them, etc... So, I started to find the information for myself, both by looking at old sources, as well as experimentation. I will also never be a copperplate calligrapher, but I use dip pens for just everyday penmanship. I re-taught myself cursive just so that I could use the pens. As @Stompie and @arcfide mention, dip pens open up a whole new world of writing experience. It can be frustrating, especially at first, until you learn the light touch needed, but can also be extremely rewarding. 

 

I have some basic information that may be useful for those just starting out trying steel pens, on my website, thesteelpen.com. Steel Pen Basics gets you an intro to the tool itself, and then Using Steel Pens gets you some of the information I wish had been available when I started out. The rest is devoted to my rough research notes that have since been turned into a series of articles on the history of the US steel pen industry, for those who wish to really geek out. But for most, the Using Steel Pens is the most useful. 

 

I'm also quite willing to chat about these dip pens either here on FPN, which I try to visit periodically, but not as often as I'd like, or through the Contact Me link on the website. 

 

There are two main kinds of dip pens, pointed, and broad nibbed. They are used for different kinds of writing. And then there are the stubs, which technically fall into the pointed pen category until they become large enough and their corners sharp enough to be considered "Engrossing" pens which are within the broad nib category. Basically, do you want to write cursive, then you want a pointed pen or stub. Do want to write italic or blackletter or uncial, than a broad nibbed pen is what you need. 

 

Questions are always welcome, and never a bad question have I ever heard. Much of the "common knowledge" about these pens and how to use them has been forgotten, but is being revived more and more in recent years. And, it's just a lot of fun. 

 

Andrew

 

 

 

[Estycollector]

@AAAndrew is a wonderful resource. 

 

This is about the nib Charles Shultz used. A DAY IN THE LIFE OF ESTERBROOK- CHARLES M. SCHULZ – Esterbrook Pens

 

The famous Falcon nibs are fun to use. 

[AAAndrew]

As a result of Schultz's preference, the 914s are always sold at a premium. What many don't realize is that the much more common, and cheaper, #14 Bank Pen is the exact same pen, just without a "silver" coating. (the "Radio" pens were developed with a coating that does seem to give some small level of rust resistance, but didn't really impact the performance of the pen itself. and "Radio" was the "high tech" indicator of the time, similar to "Atomic" in the 50s and 60s, and "i" or "e" whatever in the 2000s. (iPhone, iPad, eCommerce, ...)

 

So, get a #14 for the same experience at a fraction of the price. And if you can find one with an earlier imprint ("R. Esterbrook & Co's" for example) without "Made in USA" on it, they can be quite good quality. 

[Larry Barrieau]

When was the poem written?

[fountain_new]

Thanks so much, @AAAndrew. I'll try to get what I can from your site. 

[Estycollector]

Yes, as @AAAndrew said get the Bank #14. I think my holder is Bakelite. 

[fountain_new]

51 minutes ago, Estycollector said:

Yes, as @AAAndrew said get the Bank #14. I think my holder is Bakelite. 

So, these vintage nibs...are still available? At affordable prices? I see the Bank #14 for six bucks...this is correct?

 

This all looks very attractive, but a little overwhelming...

[AAAndrew]

2 hours ago, Larry Barrieau said:

When was the poem written?

 

Esterbrook had a contest and published the winning entries as a slim volume in 1884. 

 

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, fountain_new said:

So, these vintage nibs...are still available? At affordable prices? I see the Bank #14 for six bucks...this is correct?

 

This all looks very attractive, but a little overwhelming...

 

It can be overwhelming. There are a lot of pens still out there, and the prices are all over the place. The trick is patience and buying in larger quantities. The pens originally came in boxes of one gross (144) and can still be found unopened, but more likely in a mixed bag of different pens. It's a bit of a gamble. But, just make sure the pictures don't show rust and you'll inevitably find some good pens (as long as you don't buy any of the Soviet pens that keep getting put up for sale). 

 

The pens are the most expensive when sold in small numbers, like less than five. A pen that you may pay $40 for a gross will often be sold at $2 each. As an example, right now on The Bay I see Esterbrook 313 Probate pens, a fine stub dip pen, selling for less than $30 for a sealed box of 144, and also $3 for 3. 

 

The main thing is to get yourself a holder, some pens, a variety is usually best because the writing experience with each can be very different, learn how to prep the pen (see my site for that), get some proper ink and paper and just try it out. You'll not know what kinds of pens you like the best when you first start out. Get a few kinds, don't get the most expensive because those are usually the most flexible and you'll need to follow what they used to do with kids. In the early years, their pens were less flexible, like the Esterbrook 123, or 1000, and only later, once you get more proficient at controlling the pressure of the pen on paper were you given the more flexible styles. 

 

Andrew

[fountain_new]

Should contemporary nibs not even be tried?

[AAAndrew]

No, the Japanese G nibs are fine. It's just that the vintage nibs are generally so much better quality. Some of the modern nibs have VERY spotty quality, like many of the British nibs produced today, and the Chinese ones are pretty bad, at least the ones I've tried. 

 

Andrew

[arcfide]

16 hours ago, fountain_new said:

You think that even if it's "just for me," just at the level of practicing, learning a bit about different styles, maybe incorporating this or that into regular writing...it might be worth a shot?

 

I would say, especially if it is just for you, the dip pen will teach you more about western penmanship than pretty much any other implement. You will learn more and appreciate the reasons our western writing is the way that it is more with a dip pen than with any other implement. In the end, the feather and reed are just dip pens made of naturally formed materials, while the fountain pen is just a dip pen with a built-in inkwell. The steel/gold dip pen pretty much manifests the "form follows function" concept within western writing, in that all of the forms and shapes of our written scripts derive from the function, behavior, and limitations of the dip pen. This includes all of our present major handwriting scripts, including standard print, Italics, Textualis/Gothic, Roundhand, Spencerian, and American Cursive styles. All of them exist in the shapes that they are today primarily because of the function and behavior of the dip pen. Even our modern scripts that had ballpoint and rollerball pens in mind when they were created, follow the forms and shapes and movements that were originally conceived during the eras where dip pens ruled. 

 

Thus, if you want to train your hand, improve your eye, and enhance your comprehension of western writing, you won't find a better implement for doing so than the dip pen. 

[Estycollector]

12 hours ago, fountain_new said:

So, these vintage nibs...are still available? At affordable prices? I see the Bank #14 for six bucks...this is correct?

 

This all looks very attractive, but a little overwhelming...

Yes they are. After your thread I checked eBay and the ones I wanted are readily available.  I wanted the Falcon, 442 Jackson, the bank nib like Shultz used. There is an offering of 4 Falcons for $4 presently. 

[fountain_new]

Very cool, all of this. My thanks to everyone on the thread.