Sailor Naginata Togi: any practical value?

[Arsouille]

Hey all, 

 

I was reading about the Sailor Naginata Togi nibs, which seem really interesting and fun, but I was wondering if there was any practical value to the nib in writing in Western script or cursive? I seem to remember that there is an Architect quality to it, but I'm trying to get a sense of what the value is beyond the curiosity / oddity component. 

 

Thanks!

[helloMB]

It's a delightful nib that I believe everyone should experience at least once in their lifetime. It resembles an Architect nib but comes directly from Sailor with its unique factory touch, and its rich heritage adds an extra layer of enjoyment.

[Arsouille]

2 hours ago, helloMB said:

It's a delightful nib that I believe everyone should experience at least once in their lifetime. It resembles an Architect nib but comes directly from Sailor with its unique factory touch, and its rich heritage adds an extra layer of enjoyment.

 

Thanks! I definitely want to try it at a pen show at some point. 

 

Do you find that it's easy to stay in control of? Do you have to consciously focus on not shifting the angle so you don't get unwanted line variation?

[Doug C]

I have one. For years, I didn't really care for it, but due to medical reasons I now hold a pen at a higher angle and now I love it. 

[arcfide]

Architect style nibs of this sort are very useful if you like to do lots of capital printing. I think letters tend to come out with a characteristic "Architect's Script" feel in this case, and the letters have excellent body and style in this case. Additionally, the zoom quality of the nib makes it fairly versatile if you are using it in a fairly technical fashion (planning, art sketching, etc.) vs. just writing script. If you like to do lots of annotations and various things in outlining, then the ability to play with line variation is really helpful. 

 

Some people might not care, but while I like stub nibs for general writing, one area where they break down is when you want to maintain certain types of To Do lists where you want to put a line through the items but not scribble them out. In such cases, architect nibs allow for a much nicer, bolder strike through, whereas with some of my stub nibs I have to rotate the nib sideways to cross out my lines, which isn't as nice or fun. I've also found such things useful for things like underlining at different intensities. 

[AmandaW]

I particularly enjoy them for drawing because the 'regular' line from the nib, the one that's available without any extra effort, is a fine line. Getting broader lines, for shading or emphasis, is done with a deliberate change in hold. For me this is a very natural way to draw. It's relaxed. It just works.

 

I have several: the Lamy Hanzi and two Chinese of different brands, but no Sailor. Yet.

[Arsouille]

1 hour ago, arcfide said:

Architect style nibs of this sort are very useful if you like to do lots of capital printing. I think letters tend to come out with a characteristic "Architect's Script" feel in this case, and the letters have excellent body and style in this case. Additionally, the zoom quality of the nib makes it fairly versatile if you are using it in a fairly technical fashion (planning, art sketching, etc.) vs. just writing script. If you like to do lots of annotations and various things in outlining, then the ability to play with line variation is really helpful. 

 

Some people might not care, but while I like stub nibs for general writing, one area where they break down is when you want to maintain certain types of To Do lists where you want to put a line through the items but not scribble them out. In such cases, architect nibs allow for a much nicer, bolder strike through, whereas with some of my stub nibs I have to rotate the nib sideways to cross out my lines, which isn't as nice or fun. I've also found such things useful for things like underlining at different intensities. 

 

Very helpful, thank you. 

 

3 minutes ago, AmandaW said:

I particularly enjoy them for drawing because the 'regular' line from the nib, the one that's available without any extra effort, is a fine line. Getting broader lines, for shading or emphasis, is done with a deliberate change in hold. For me this is a very natural way to draw. It's relaxed. It just works.

 

I have several: the Lamy Hanzi and two Chinese of different brands, but no Sailor. Yet.

 

That makes. Alas, seeing my drawings is the visual equivalent of hearing my singing - something I do not wish on anyone. 

[helloMB]

12 hours ago, Arsouille said:

 

Thanks! I definitely want to try it at a pen show at some point. 

 

Do you find that it's easy to stay in control of? Do you have to consciously focus on not shifting the angle so you don't get unwanted line variation?

 

Very easy to control, just depends on which angle you hold your pen! 

[Doug C]

48 minutes ago, helloMB said:

 

Very easy to control, just depends on which angle you hold your pen! 

Some people only have one 'angle " which means they can't take advantage of the flexibility. 

[helloMB]

17 minutes ago, Doug C said:

Some people only have one 'angle " which means they can't take advantage of the flexibility. 

 

For a flex nib sure, I hope nobody is trying to fiex their Togi nib! 

[Number99]

I feel that there is some confusion in the thread between Sailor's Naginata and Chinese long knives.

The Sailor's Naginata is a hand-polished high-end nib, and a King Eagle Naginata recently sold for nearly $8,500 on a Japanese auction site.

The concept behind the development of this nib was "a nib that can write like a brush with a fountain pen," and it specializes in this function.

(That blurb is not meant to flex and write.)

 

Postscript.

By the way, I have no intention of buying one because they are too expensive, and if I did, they would be very difficult to obtain.

I use a brush pen instead of a fountain pen which writes like a brush.

 

This Japanese-language blog post provides a comparison image of Naginata tipping from the Nagahara era and current Naginata tipping.

From the Kingdomnote blog.

 

The onlookers will leave, please continue the discussion.

😁

Edited September 15, 2023 by Number99

[como]

There is no doubt that the primary intended purpose of the Naginata Togi is to write Japanese/Chinese. It's also a great pen to sketch with, with different widths. Some calligraphers seem to be able to have fun with this type of nib to write some modern scripts with, as shown in an FPN thread that talks about the MB Curved Nib, a similar nib. Other than the above, I think it's just a fun factor, something of a novelty. I feel that it's too wide to be a daily writer, though still possible. A beautiful nib to admire for sure.

[arcfide]

13 hours ago, como said:

There is no doubt that the primary intended purpose of the Naginata Togi is to write Japanese/Chinese.

 

No doubt. However, some people are unaware that historically, the 19th century and early 20th century in the West was full of innovations in the expectations of handwriting. This gave us the wide presence of monoline cursive writing in Palmer and other traditions, but it also created a set of scripts used by technical engineers and professionals who needed to do a lot of work on documents like blueprints. There were often specific nib recommendations for dip pens in holders that would correspond to the specific types of annotations or writing to be used to mark up various documents and prints. From among these we get the Architect Script which is what also lends the common moniker of "architect nib" to many of these types of nibs. 

 

So, while this is a nib clearly aimed at the East, it is also not a nib without historical precedent and practical use in the West. 

[Karmachanic]

5 hours ago, arcfide said:

From among these we get the Architect Script which is what also lends the common moniker of "architect nib" to many of these types of nibs. 

 

My understanding is that so called architect script is block lettering of even width. The Hebrew/Arabic nib has come to be known as Architect.  No idea when, where or how, other than the whispers that Frank Lloyd Wright had something to do with it.

[arcfide]

6 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

 

My understanding is that so called architect script is block lettering of even width. The Hebrew/Arabic nib has come to be known as Architect.  No idea when, where or how, other than the whispers that Frank Lloyd Wright had something to do with it.

 

As far as I know the monoline architect script is the more common variant, but I know that I've seen some intentionally shaded varieties, but I just can't find the source right now. However, in my searching, I can point to this book:

 

New Zanerian Alphabets | IAMPETH

 

Which includes a lot of neat scripts, many of which would be excellent for use with an architect nib. 

 

I don't actually think that architect nibs were particularly common anywhere, including in Japan with the Big 3 makers. I think that might make their modern interest something recent (past 100 years), but the rotation of broad edge nibs to create an architect effect is definitely older than this. 

[Karmachanic]

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/14208-architect-style/#comments

[Number99]

Kanji Brush Calligraphy is shown in the link below, which I assume would be difficult even for Sailor Naginata.

However, this is what Sailor Naginata is aiming for.

Japanese Brush Calligraphy Styles 楷書 Kaisho.（It is translated as a block script, but this is a mistranslation.）

 

Please also see here.

Instagram #長刀研ぎ（#Naginata-Togi）

 

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Number99

[Arsouille]

On 9/17/2023 at 8:50 AM, Number99 said:

Kanji Brush Calligraphy is shown in the link below, which I assume would be difficult even for Sailor Naginata.

However, this is what Sailor Naginata is aiming for.

Japanese Brush Calligraphy Styles 楷書 Kaisho.（It is translated as a block script, but this is a mistranslation.）

 

Please also see here.

Instagram #長刀研ぎ（#Naginata-Togi）

 

 

Thank you!

[como]

Just a personal and biased judgment: the Naginata Togi is an expensive nice daily writer for those whose daily writing is in Japanese/Chinese. Probably for those whose daily writing is not in these languages, it’s much less so (and if it still can be, probably only MF is suitable for daily writing). This nib has architecture nib character but it’s not the same. The cut is different and more “tear drop” shape and less “blocky”, so for me at least, writing in western script is a bit “strange” with this nib and requires a little getting used to. Drawing with it can be quite cool, but my level of drawing is rather primitive.

[Doug C]

For addional clarity to my previous comments, I now hold my pen at a 70 degree angle. Previously it was around 45 and that was unusable for daily writing