Montblanc 146 vs. Mahjong P136

[Andrew_L]

6 hours ago, amberleadavis said:

Inexpensive doesn't necessary mean poorly made.

 

I did not claim this, I spoke against cloning, that is, profiting from someone else's experience, image and developments. Regarding Chinese pens, in 95% (and maybe more) they all write the same and do not have their own character like Montblanc's, Pilot's, Sailor's, Pelikan's fountain pens. I gave all my Chinese modern pens to those who wanted to understand by fountain pens writing, and I kept a couple of pens for experimenting with nibs and I haven't bought such pens for quite a long time. It is better not to buy anything for a long time, to collect funds and buy something really interesting, or to have 100,000 pens that feel the same and just write.

[amberleadavis]

15 hours ago, Andrew_L said:

 

I did not claim this, I spoke against cloning, that is, profiting from someone else's experience, image and developments. Regarding Chinese pens, in 95% (and maybe more) they all write the same and do not have their own character like Montblanc's, Pilot's, Sailor's, Pelikan's fountain pens. I gave all my Chinese modern pens to those who wanted to understand by fountain pens writing, and I kept a couple of pens for experimenting with nibs and I haven't bought such pens for quite a long time. It is better not to buy anything for a long time, to collect funds and buy something really interesting, or to have 100,000 pens that feel the same and just write.

 

I certainly  never meant to imply that you said inexpensive is poorly made.  I have some inexpensive pens (my vintage Sheaffer school pens, my vintage Esterbrooks), that are wonderful!  

 

I am with you, I don't like cloning.

 

I also agree that saving up for something special is a great idea.

[The Elevator]

Seems like the MB is a good pen for $500, and the Majohn is a good pen for $35.

 

I am confused on one bit though—does or does not the P136 have an ink window? Believe it or not, that makes all the difference to me.

 

as for cloning/not cloning, all I have to say is that I bought a PenBBS 355 because I couldn’t find a Conid up for sale anywhere on the net. I generally frown on cloning… but when the original is unobtainable, what other recourse is available? And it’s always helpful to have a couple cheap pens on hand for temperamental inks—found that one out the hard way. When I had to spend hours fighting with a Benu and a frustrating deAtramentis ink that will not be named 

[A Smug Dill]

44 minutes ago, The Elevator said:

but when the original is unobtainable, what other recourse is available?

 

Recourse? Being a retail consumer, living in a developed nation notwithstanding, does not entitle one to material gratification with the existing range (i.e. one may desire something that no current product offers) or stock availability of products/models in the market. It's not a right — legally, commercially, or otherwise — to have one's non-essential wants or ‘needs’ satisfied, even if one has funds ready and the willingness to spend it; and being frustrated and/or left wanting in that manner is no encroachment, affront, offence, or violation that morally demands ‘recourse’ to assuage one's grievance. It's perfectly acceptable, even by today's standards in Western society, to not be able to get what one wants (even though others may have secured it in other circumstances, or via other channels) and be unhappily aware of that gap or hole in one's sense of fulfilment.

 

On 4/6/2023 at 12:07 AM, Andrew_L said:

I am against cloning, replicating and copying, because we need to see further, over the next crossroad. I believe that MB is much better than a Chinese fake. By buying and encouraging others to buy cheap Chinese replica pens, you thereby destroy the modern industry of fountain pens and this is the way when there will be nothing on the market except Chinese and very expensive exclusive for those who have a lot of money.

 

I'm against counterfeiting and fraud. I'm not against (willing or reluctant) competitors doing things that hurt each other's interests, as long as they're within the (limited) governing rules of the arena; they are not friends, and ‘we’ are not friends, so it is not the default common goal or accepted doctrine to invest the virtual pool of resources and capabilities for ‘win-win’ and maximum ‘progress’, through development and diversification, in service of the logical collective… of individuals who have not entered into such a compact. It should not be assumed that they even share general views of what constitutes a better tomorrow for the industry, The Hobby™, or the world at large. It is no more right, but also no more wrong, for commercial enterprises (in the same region or otherwise) to work with each other cooperatively, as it is for them to work against each other for profit, market dominance, or even attrition.

1. Personally, I feel a mild distaste for Montblanc as a brand, because of its image (which the company certainly seemed keen and instrumental in fostering) in the market and in modern culture, which is orthogonal to actual/technical product quality.
2. I will wholeheartedly agree with you that a genuine Montblanc fountain pen is much better than a Chinese ‘fake’, replica, clone, homage, or whatever-you-want-to-call-it of that product model.
3. I think Montblanc fountain pens are overpriced in the market, with or without the presence of such Chinese replicas or clones, for what they technically offer; it's not a view that arose from, “but I can get a Majohn P136 for a tiny fraction of the asking price of a Montblanc Meisterstück LeGrand fountain pen!”
4. I think it is only due respect given to one's fellows and peers (as in other fountain pen users, buyers, hobbyists) to let them do what is legal, and preach their views. You're welcome to be against cloning, refrain from buying Chinese pens, and advocate keeping Montblanc in business and sufficiently profitable (so that investors wouldn't just pull the plug). Others should be equally welcome, and be not considered any more right or wrong, to buy Chinese remakes, promote market awareness of the availability of such, recommend the pens to others, or even encourage a concerted consumer effort to erode Montblanc's market position so that it has to either lower its prices to compete or become more and more ‘exclusive’ focusing only on the wants of big spenders (or pull out altogether). It's OK for the world to be dog-eat-dog; and, in the commercial arena, money is prerogative. If a loose collective of consumers with $200m to spend on discretionary purchases want to favour one thing to the detriment of another, then that is what the market has decided, even if brands are killed and jobs are lost in the process.
5. So, I'm certainly not saying you should stop preaching your message, but I'd be happy for others who take the opposite view to engage in their own activism. May the side that influences the most spending globally win!

[The Elevator]

5 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

Recourse?

 

5 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

Being a retail consumer, living in a developed nation notwithstanding, does not entitle one to material gratification with the existing range (i.e. one may desire something that no current product offers) or stock availability of products/models in the market. It's not a right — legally, commercially, or otherwise — to have one's non-essential wants or ‘needs’ satisfied, even if one has funds ready and the willingness to spend it; and being frustrated and/or left wanting in that manner is no encroachment, affront, offence, or violation that morally demands ‘recourse’ to assuage one's grievance.

I actually completely agree with this statement—that’s just not the definition of “recourse” that I happened to be using …

[Corp.]

On 4/5/2023 at 4:07 PM, Andrew_L said:

 

 

 

Nevertheless, everyone MB fans knows the lawsuit of the MB against to the Senator (President), which theoretically was devalue the MB 149, but this was in Europe.

 

MB lost, https://www.landesrecht-hamburg.de/bsha/document/KORE512632014 

[a student]

3 hours ago, Corp. said:

 

MB lost, https://www.landesrecht-hamburg.de/bsha/document/KORE512632014 

 Care to explain to the illiterati such as myself what this amounts to - in a nutshell. Thank you

[Corp.]

On 5/8/2023 at 3:39 PM, a student said:

 Care to explain to the illiterati such as myself what this amounts to - in a nutshell. Thank you

 

Sorry, wasn't online for a while...

 

The High Court of Hamburg stated that the Senator President was NOT a knock-off of the MB 149 as the Name is clearly indicated on the product. The "cigar-shape" of the MB 149 itself is no more a protected trademark of MB.

 

Google translate: 

1. In the case of high-priced prestige objects, a deception of origin within the meaning of Section 4 No. 9 Letter a UWG is out of the question if there is a clearly visible indication of origin on the product. (Rn.79)

2. If there is a narrow range of shapes in the relevant product market, the addition of a distinctive word element can change the distinctive character of the registered three-dimensional trademark in such a way that there is a deviation within the meaning of Section 26 (3) sentence 1 MarkenG with the result that the use of the combined Sign no longer preserves rights in favor of the registered 3D trademark. (Rn.97)

[a student]

4 minutes ago, Corp. said:

 

Sorry, wasn't online for a while...

 

The High Court of Hamburg stated that the Senator President was NOT a knock-off of the MB 149 as the Name is clearly indicated on the product. The "cigar-shape" of the MB 149 itself is no more a protected trademark of MB.

 

Many thanks. Doesn't seem sensible to me to treat cigar shape as IP; lots of pen have than shape: Sailor, Namiki, Sheaffer, GvFC Magnum, etc. MB it seems is getting overly sensitive about its product. (I wouldn't confuse a Sailor with a Namiki  because of size and shape, and one can tell from some distance the difference between Majohn and MB, at least for now)

[Andrew_L]

Yes, of course, Montblanc did not reach a solution with Senator President, but these were 2 famous Germany brands and by the way, the production of Senator President was stopped. Although the pens, to be honest, had little similarity, unlike those described in the topic. But it was a dispute between European brands with European values and European competition. When the dispute now arose between Kaweco and Moonman, the Chinese owner simply opened a new brand, Mahjong, and the court case was settled. I am saying that the court case with the Chinese manufacturer does not make sense, it is a waste of money.

[Corp.]

1 hour ago, Andrew_L said:

Yes, of course, Montblanc did not reach a solution with Senator President, but these were 2 famous Germany brands and by the way, the production of Senator President was stopped. Although the pens, to be honest, had little similarity, unlike those described in the topic. But it was a dispute between European brands with European values and European competition. When the dispute now arose between Kaweco and Moonman, the Chinese owner simply opened a new brand, Mahjong, and the court case was settled. I am saying that the court case with the Chinese manufacturer does not make sense, it is a waste of money.

 

Senator has never been a famous brand in Germany, it's a rather low budget brand, see https://www.senator.com/en/.

 

The rest: totally agree

 

 

Has anybody already seen the Wing Sung 630 https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005581992923.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.4c584ae4wcuJ2H&mp=1&gatewayAdapt=glo2deu

 

This VERY close to the original 146 / 149

[Andrew_L]

Yes, modern Senator is not a player on fountain pens market. Let's say this is a company that is not equal to Montblanc or Pelikan, but when there are 10 fp's factory in country (conditionally), so, the one of them is influential manufacturer. When there are 100 conventional brands in a country (as in China), one of them may not mean anything to market at all, it's just a name.

PS: By the way, Senator is a company of descendants of the famous Merz&Krell, which took as name the name of one from model line, almost as in the case of Montblanc, which a descendant of SimPlo company)).