Pilot size #15 nib (823/743) line widths?

[CoolBreeze]

I know this will vary by ink and paper but can anyone provide the line widths for Pilots #15 nibs for any or all of the following nibs - EF, F, MF, M? I'm contemplating a Pilot 823/743 and have been particularly particular about line width as of late.

 

If you don't use the caliper and loupe method - I am looking for something around a Kokuno F (or ideally between the F and EF or maybe slightly thinner but not as thin as EF). I also like the Kokuno EF but would not want to go thinner than that and sometimes find it too fine. Pilot VP Fine seems a bit broad for but only by a hair. Pilot Prera M is way too broad. Thank you!

[arcfide]

Have you looked at the various controlled writing samples available from various retailers? I believe places like Goulet Pens and others provide this information. 

[CoolBreeze]

22 minutes ago, arcfide said:

Have you looked at the various controlled writing samples available from various retailers? I believe places like Goulet Pens and others provide this information. 

Thank you for the reference. The scans don't look very clear to me though. Its a good starting point but I was hoping to get a consensus from the forum members who are particular about these sorts of things.

[A Smug Dill]

2 hours ago, CoolBreeze said:

I'm contemplating a Pilot 823/743 and have been particularly particular about line width as of late.

1 hour ago, CoolBreeze said:

The scans don't look very clear to me though. Its a good starting point but I was hoping to get a consensus from the forum members who are particular about these sorts of things.

 

With all due respect to a peer and equal here in the forum, if you consider that kinda thing to be valuable information — contributed by members of the community, for the benefit of other members — that manufacturers and retailers with a commercial interest have failed to provide convincingly, … when did you contribute clear enough scans and measurements of writing samples produced with the nibs you already have, to set an example and/or invest your effort upfront to build that collective knowledge base?

[arcfide]

I suspect that you might not be able to get the level of guarantee that you'd like. The problem stems from the natural variability in nib widths. If you aren't able to observe the differences in flow, line width, and so forth from a combination of all of the available writing samples of the 823 that is out there, combined with the observed nib tipping size measurements, and extrapolating from there, but are looking for something even more particular, you're likely going to be unable to find a good answer, because it likely doesn't exist absent your own hand and writing with your own inks with a specific instance of the pens in question. 

 

You can get a general sense of how the 823 and 743 will write by looking at the various samples. You need to extrapolate from those samples by looking and comparing multiple different versions, sometimes overlaying them on top of one another by taking them off of the retailer's website and doing the work on your own computer with an image processing program. But you also need to examine them in light of a few things:

 

1. The 823 and 743 use different filling systems, and as such, they will have a different air interchange behavior across the range of the fill of the pen. Even using the exact same nib and feed, you'll see variations in effective line width across an entire fill of the pen because the rates of flow will vary between the two pens. 

 

2. Depending on the ink that you use, the effective line width will vary by more than the difference between any two adjacent nib tipping sizes across Pilot's line. 

 

3. Depending on the pressure that you use on the pen, the effective line width will vary by potential more than a tipping size.

 

4. Depending on the paper that you use, the nib size can shift up or down a full tipping size. 

 

5. Notwithstanding Pilot's extremely good quality control and consistency, the nibs are still ground more or less by hand (I think), and they are subject to natural variability and tolerances that mean that even the same pen of the same nib tipping designation will result in distinctly and observably different line widths.

 

6. Continuing with the above, not only is the grind going to differ between different nibs, but the tuning will potentially differ between individual nibs, meaning that some will be wetter or drier than others, and unless you can tune your nibs to extremely fine tolerances, you will see very wide variations in line width between individual nibs even on the same pen (swapped nibs, for instance). 

 

7. Even if you got all of that settled in, a pen will naturally tend to "tune itself" a little bit with your own writing depending on how much pressure you put on your nib and the types of paper you use, etc. This means that the pen likely won't writing identically from when it started even in your own hand with the same variables, simply allowing for time to gently alter the behavior. 

 

8. Then you have environmental considerations, in which ambient temperature, humidity, and pressure will all affect the line width on the page. 

 

Goulet Pens has one of the most extensive and exhaustive and variable controlled nib width comparisons out there. They use the same paper with the same ink written by the same person under more or less the same conditions and photographed under the same general process and corrected/adjusted to the same scale and exposure (or better than most). Frankly, that's about as good as it gets when it comes to this stuff. If you combine that with looking at all of the writing samples of all the people who have done 823 and 743 reviews against all of them that have done, I don't think you're likely to get better visual information than that. You can find plenty of other comparisons, and you can use those to help refine your expectations. 

 

However, given that you're talking about minute differences in line width, the amount of difference you are talking about I think is well within the variation of one nib to the next, and so it is impossible to get a sense of what that will be in practice without actually observing a specific pen in your specific environment. Otherwise, there's no way to be able to guess whether the pen you get will have the width you want or not, except in a much wider band of variation than you appear to be thinking about. 

 

Or, put another way, I think the only answer to your question is a statistical/stochastic one, and the only way for you to get that assessment is an intuitive and personal observation and internal collation of all the available writing samples out there, which are easy to find with a search engine. 

 

Finally, just to muddy the waters further, are you absolutely sure that it is the line width you are particular about right now, or is it a holistic combination of line width, wetness, flow, lubrication, feedback, and bounce? Compared to the Kakuno, the Pilot 823 and 743 nib is likely to have more bounce and natural line variation in writing, probably more than your tolerances described above for line width, is that something you're willing to have? 

 

I think most things that people can give you are going to be no more precise than what you can get from the retailer sites, so, is there something in particular that you had in mind that would assuage your curiosity?  

[CoolBreeze]

3 hours ago, arcfide said:

I suspect that you might not be able to get the level of guarantee that you'd like. The problem stems from the natural variability in nib widths. If you aren't able to observe the differences in flow, line width, and so forth from a combination of all of the available writing samples of the 823 that is out there, combined with the observed nib tipping size measurements, and extrapolating from there, but are looking for something even more particular, you're likely going to be unable to find a good answer, because it likely doesn't exist absent your own hand and writing with your own inks with a specific instance of the pens in question. 

 

You can get a general sense of how the 823 and 743 will write by looking at the various samples. You need to extrapolate from those samples by looking and comparing multiple different versions, sometimes overlaying them on top of one another by taking them off of the retailer's website and doing the work on your own computer with an image processing program. But you also need to examine them in light of a few things:

 

1. The 823 and 743 use different filling systems, and as such, they will have a different air interchange behavior across the range of the fill of the pen. Even using the exact same nib and feed, you'll see variations in effective line width across an entire fill of the pen because the rates of flow will vary between the two pens. 

 

2. Depending on the ink that you use, the effective line width will vary by more than the difference between any two adjacent nib tipping sizes across Pilot's line. 

 

3. Depending on the pressure that you use on the pen, the effective line width will vary by potential more than a tipping size.

 

4. Depending on the paper that you use, the nib size can shift up or down a full tipping size. 

 

5. Notwithstanding Pilot's extremely good quality control and consistency, the nibs are still ground more or less by hand (I think), and they are subject to natural variability and tolerances that mean that even the same pen of the same nib tipping designation will result in distinctly and observably different line widths.

 

6. Continuing with the above, not only is the grind going to differ between different nibs, but the tuning will potentially differ between individual nibs, meaning that some will be wetter or drier than others, and unless you can tune your nibs to extremely fine tolerances, you will see very wide variations in line width between individual nibs even on the same pen (swapped nibs, for instance). 

 

7. Even if you got all of that settled in, a pen will naturally tend to "tune itself" a little bit with your own writing depending on how much pressure you put on your nib and the types of paper you use, etc. This means that the pen likely won't writing identically from when it started even in your own hand with the same variables, simply allowing for time to gently alter the behavior. 

 

8. Then you have environmental considerations, in which ambient temperature, humidity, and pressure will all affect the line width on the page. 

 

Goulet Pens has one of the most extensive and exhaustive and variable controlled nib width comparisons out there. They use the same paper with the same ink written by the same person under more or less the same conditions and photographed under the same general process and corrected/adjusted to the same scale and exposure (or better than most). Frankly, that's about as good as it gets when it comes to this stuff. If you combine that with looking at all of the writing samples of all the people who have done 823 and 743 reviews against all of them that have done, I don't think you're likely to get better visual information than that. You can find plenty of other comparisons, and you can use those to help refine your expectations. 

 

However, given that you're talking about minute differences in line width, the amount of difference you are talking about I think is well within the variation of one nib to the next, and so it is impossible to get a sense of what that will be in practice without actually observing a specific pen in your specific environment. Otherwise, there's no way to be able to guess whether the pen you get will have the width you want or not, except in a much wider band of variation than you appear to be thinking about. 

 

Or, put another way, I think the only answer to your question is a statistical/stochastic one, and the only way for you to get that assessment is an intuitive and personal observation and internal collation of all the available writing samples out there, which are easy to find with a search engine. 

 

Finally, just to muddy the waters further, are you absolutely sure that it is the line width you are particular about right now, or is it a holistic combination of line width, wetness, flow, lubrication, feedback, and bounce? Compared to the Kakuno, the Pilot 823 and 743 nib is likely to have more bounce and natural line variation in writing, probably more than your tolerances described above for line width, is that something you're willing to have? 

 

I think most things that people can give you are going to be no more precise than what you can get from the retailer sites, so, is there something in particular that you had in mind that would assuage your curiosity?  

Hi - thank you for your thorough response. I appreciate the time you spent writing it. I understand what you are saying however I honestly didn't believe it would be that difficult of a task or something that complex. For example in the ink forum - there are people that ask about specific shades of ink or specific characteristics that completely depend on probably most or all of the above but those conversations are deemed worth having. Not to mention the added complexity of screen calibration, color temperature of the light in the room that the picture was taken in, or a person's individual perception of color that might be different than another's. All of this to select a $3 sample of ink to test. 

 

One thing you did mention that has me curious is the wetness of the 823 vs. 743 - do you really find them different? I thoroughly understand the concept of air/ink exchange but have not read anything to indicate they write differently or that the opening is any different given both pens have the same nib and feed and surrounded 360 degrees by the inside of the section in order to have a proper friction fit.

 

To your last question - As these are popular pens (at least the 823 is) - I was hoping to get a bunch of data from people's personal experience, factor in external factors that you mentioned, see if there are any trends, and then make a decision. Seems pretty straight forward and probably matches the purpose of what every other post is on here (at least the majority).

[arcfide]

57 minutes ago, CoolBreeze said:

I appreciate the time you spent writing it. I understand what you are saying however I honestly didn't believe it would be that difficult of a task or something that complex.

 

The difficulty is in getting you anything that hasn't already been provided by the sources that I mentioned above which you didn't find satisfactory. Your question was about precise measurements, and I don't think you're likely to get any better than the 3 or so public retailers with good databases of a wide range of nib writing samples as well as the myriad of writing samples available from an easy search for 823 and 743 writing samples on YouTube, FPN, and elsewhere. Since you have already said those aren't good enough for what you want, I don't think you'll find anything better. In order to get better, you would have to have the manufacturer provide detailed specifications of their tolerances (Lamy does this). Pilot provides this:

 

A wide selection of 15 types of nib to help you find the writing touch that best suits you. | Fountain pen CUSTOM〈CUSTOM series〉 | PILOT (pilot-custom.jp)

 

Which I actually find to be relatively accurate with respect to line width, but I haven't seen any chart indicating their tolerances for each nib width. 

 

Another approach would be for someone to gather a statistically significant number of same batch or near same batch modern production fountain pens and do precise caliper measurements accounting for measurement error on a standardized ink and paper (also accounting for the wide variation in paper quality even from sheet to sheet) under very strict conditions (to limit the need for buying many, many fountain pens of the same type to achieve statistical significance) and to do the data gathering to derive an estimate of the manufacturing tolerances that Pilot is using. I don't know of anyone who would have the time or resources to do that as a hobby, but I can't see how what you're asking for can be answered any other way if the existing resources aren't enough for you. 

 

1 hour ago, CoolBreeze said:

One thing you you did mention that has me curious is the wetness of the 823 vs. 743 - do you really find them different? I thoroughly understand the concept of air/ink exchange but have not read anything to indicate the write differently or that the opening is any different given both pens have the same nib and feed and surrounded 360 degrees by the inside of the section in order to have a proper friction fit.

 

In short, yes. Since you're familiar with air/ink exchange, the mechanism for this should be obvious, given that there is a fundamentally different geometry and volume of ink reservoir between the 743 and the 823, which will guarantee different internal operating pressure ranges. To be clear, though, I didn't say that their wetness would be different in an absolute sense, but that the relative range of wetness and variation will be different between the two pens. I can absolutely say that my experience with the different Pilot filling mechanisms and ink reservoirs has netted very different ink flow characteristics, and this would be especially exaggerated given the 823's very large ink volume relative to the standard ink capacities. If you "hack" your filling to try to remove all excess air from the reservoir, then I would expect an even greater range of behaviors. 

 

1 hour ago, CoolBreeze said:

To your last question - As these are popular pens (at least the 823 is) - I was hoping to get a bunch of data from people's personal experience, factor in external factors that you mentioned, see if there is any trends, and then make a decision. Seems pretty straight forward and probably matches the purpose of what every other post is on here (at at least the majority).

 

But more than what is already available in the forum? It sounds like you want much more precision than just some anecdotes. If all you want is my subjective opinion about the various options without any hard numbers, I'm happy to opine about my subjective experiences with the nibs all day long, but that won't be precise or objective in any way. 

[A Smug Dill]

7 hours ago, arcfide said:

I don't know of anyone who would have the time or resources to do that as a hobby, but I can't see how what you're asking for can be answered any other way if the existing resources aren't enough for you.

 

More pointedly,

 

16 hours ago, CoolBreeze said:

… I was hoping to get a consensus from the forum members who are particular about these sorts of things.

11 hours ago, CoolBreeze said:

honestly didn't believe it would be that difficult of a task or something that complex. …‹snip›… Seems pretty straight forward and probably matches the purpose of what every other post is on here (at least the majority).

 

he has already signalled distrust of any single information source, but expect a whole lot of his fellow forum members to attend to the task of providing data — as if it was an easy and reasonable request to make of others casually. Just so that he can have the benefit of all that work everyone else puts in because, uh, they are “particular about these sorts of things” for their own reasons and requirements, and so the O.P. would deign to consider them like-minded (as opposed to retailers, who may have their own agendas and biases in publishing such information in the way they chose) but not quite as particular in their interest, careful in their assessments, and empirically data-driven in their investigative or problem-solving approaches as himself.

[jchch1950]

Brick and Mortar pen store that allows try the pen will be your solution. You can try a pen with fine and another with extra fine and buy the one that have the nib that you prefer.

[CoolBreeze]

9 hours ago, arcfide said:

 

The difficulty is in getting you anything that hasn't already been provided by the sources that I mentioned above which you didn't find satisfactory. Your question was about precise measurements, and I don't think you're likely to get any better than the 3 or so public retailers with good databases of a wide range of nib writing samples as well as the myriad of writing samples available from an easy search for 823 and 743 writing samples on YouTube, FPN, and elsewhere. Since you have already said those aren't good enough for what you want, I don't think you'll find anything better. In order to get better, you would have to have the manufacturer provide detailed specifications of their tolerances (Lamy does this). Pilot provides this:

 

A wide selection of 15 types of nib to help you find the writing touch that best suits you. | Fountain pen CUSTOM〈CUSTOM series〉 | PILOT (pilot-custom.jp)

 

Which I actually find to be relatively accurate with respect to line width, but I haven't seen any chart indicating their tolerances for each nib width. 

 

Another approach would be for someone to gather a statistically significant number of same batch or near same batch modern production fountain pens and do precise caliper measurements accounting for measurement error on a standardized ink and paper (also accounting for the wide variation in paper quality even from sheet to sheet) under very strict conditions (to limit the need for buying many, many fountain pens of the same type to achieve statistical significance) and to do the data gathering to derive an estimate of the manufacturing tolerances that Pilot is using. I don't know of anyone who would have the time or resources to do that as a hobby, but I can't see how what you're asking for can be answered any other way if the existing resources aren't enough for you. 

 

 

In short, yes. Since you're familiar with air/ink exchange, the mechanism for this should be obvious, given that there is a fundamentally different geometry and volume of ink reservoir between the 743 and the 823, which will guarantee different internal operating pressure ranges. To be clear, though, I didn't say that their wetness would be different in an absolute sense, but that the relative range of wetness and variation will be different between the two pens. I can absolutely say that my experience with the different Pilot filling mechanisms and ink reservoirs has netted very different ink flow characteristics, and this would be especially exaggerated given the 823's very large ink volume relative to the standard ink capacities. If you "hack" your filling to try to remove all excess air from the reservoir, then I would expect an even greater range of behaviors. 

 

 

But more than what is already available in the forum? It sounds like you want much more precision than just some anecdotes. If all you want is my subjective opinion about the various options without any hard numbers, I'm happy to opine about my subjective experiences with the nibs all day long, but that won't be precise or objective in any way. 

Thank you for your response. I haven't seen the inside of an 823 section looking down at the breather hole but I assumed since Pilot was using the same section/feed/nib combination that there were no differences in geometry. I few years back I posted something about ink volume pressures and I thought most people responded that it was negligible compared to other factors. I will have brush up on my understanding of the concept but I originally viewed the 2 pens as fundamentally the same pen given my assumption that the entire apparatus in which the ink enters is the same. Interesting that you have had different experiences.

 

Regarding the responses I was looking for - I believe I mentioned in my OP that "if you didn't use the loupe and caliper method etc. ....that I was roughly trying to find something between a Kokuno F and a Kokuno EF and that my 18k VP Fine was a bit too broad for me. Those are the only other Pilot pens I have in that range to provide for relative references. I had a Pilot no. 5 nib in medium but sold it because it was too broad for me. 

[XYZZY]

I am unhappy with the recent Nib Nook changes.  It used to be a great tool that could answer this question quickly (modulo variation in Brian's writing samples).  Now it is not.  They have removed a lot of the writing samples, and I seem to recall that there used to be higher resolution images that you could view.  No more.

 

However, you can get to some additional samples by manually editing the URL to the images.  For example, the only 823 sample it showed is for a B nib.  You can right-click the image and select "Open Image in New Tab" (that's the option desktop Chrome, YMMV).  Then in the new tab's address bar you can edit the URL to replace "Broad" with "Fine" to see the sample for the 823-F.  Note, however, that there is no "ExtraFine" sample, but that might be because the 823 is not available in EF 🙂  You also won't find 743 samples since Goulet can't get to them (those are not imported by Pilot Corporation of America).

 

I cannot figure out how to get to the higher resolution nib nook images, though (assuming they ever used to be there, and it is not a trick of my memory).  If they used to be there they could probably be recalled by manually editing the URLs if you knew the pattern.

 

Regardless, @CoolBreeze, in general, Pilot gold nibs run a bit wider than their steel counterparts.  So if you want something between a Kakuno EF and F then I would assume the answer will be an EF nib.  I would also be prepared for that gold EF to be the same or wider than an F.  Regardless of quality control there is still pen-to-pen variation.  Barring trying a sample in-store, you could always have one ground to your specifications.  That's probably the route I would take.

 

[CoolBreeze]

1 hour ago, XYZZY said:

I am unhappy with the recent Nib Nook changes.  It used to be a great tool that could answer this question quickly (modulo variation in Brian's writing samples).  Now it is not.  They have removed a lot of the writing samples, and I seem to recall that there used to be higher resolution images that you could view.  No more.

 

However, you can get to some additional samples by manually editing the URL to the images.  For example, the only 823 sample it showed is for a B nib.  You can right-click the image and select "Open Image in New Tab" (that's the option desktop Chrome, YMMV).  Then in the new tab's address bar you can edit the URL to replace "Broad" with "Fine" to see the sample for the 823-F.  Note, however, that there is no "ExtraFine" sample, but that might be because the 823 is not available in EF 🙂  You also won't find 743 samples since Goulet can't get to them (those are not imported by Pilot Corporation of America).

 

I cannot figure out how to get to the higher resolution nib nook images, though (assuming they ever used to be there, and it is not a trick of my memory).  If they used to be there they could probably be recalled by manually editing the URLs if you knew the pattern.

 

Regardless, @CoolBreeze, in general, Pilot gold nibs run a bit wider than their steel counterparts.  So if you want something between a Kakuno EF and F then I would assume the answer will be an EF nib.  I would also be prepared for that gold EF to be the same or wider than an F.  Regardless of quality control there is still pen-to-pen variation.  Barring trying a sample in-store, you could always have one ground to your specifications.  That's probably the route I would take.

 

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the response. This was helpful!

 

Also I agree with you that the fact the EF no.15 nib is not on the nib nook makes it less helpful for me. Some companies have larger jumps between sizes and not being able to see the jump (even if it is a blurry picture) makes the decision difficult if based solely on that data source.

[arcfide]

8 hours ago, CoolBreeze said:

Thank you for your response. I haven't seen the inside of an 823 section looking down at the breather hole but I assumed since Pilot was using the same section/feed/nib combination that there were no differences in geometry. I few years back I posted something about ink volume pressures and I thought most people responded that it was negligible compared to other factors. I will have brush up on my understanding of the concept but I originally viewed the 2 pens as fundamentally the same pen given my assumption that the entire apparatus in which the ink enters is the same. Interesting that you have had different experiences.

 

Regarding the responses I was looking for - I believe I mentioned in my OP that "if you didn't use the loupe and caliper method etc. ....that I was roughly trying to find something between a Kokuno F and a Kokuno EF and that my 18k VP Fine was a bit too broad for me. Those are the only other Pilot pens I have in that range to provide for relative references. I had a Pilot no. 5 nib in medium but sold it because it was too broad for me. 

 

Generally speaking, I agree that PIlot's gold nibs seem to run broader and wetter than their steel nibs. A big part of this, I think, is that they are a little more naturally flexible, and so that encourages a little more tine movement under writing, even with a very light hand. 

 

As for the ink wetness between the filling systems, I believe it is highly noticeable if you are very sensitive to ink flow. I am speaking mostly from the experience of broader nibs, and people who only use XEF and EF nibs may not feel the same way, but with almost all of my pens, it is quite easy to detect differences in flow rates between even a converter and a cartridge because of ink volume/pressure changes, and the differences are even larger when dealing with ink volumes in excess of 1ml. The change in flow rates and wetness between 1ml cartridges and 2ml or greater vacuum and eyedropper pens can be quite stark depending on how full the vacuum filler is. When the pen is completely full and you just begin to write, as you desaturate the feed but the air volume hasn't increased too much in the reservoir, you can see a much drier line; as you get to a majority of air vs ink in the reservoir, I notice a distinct increase in wetness. I can see this occur in all of my pens, but it is most distinct with wetter pens and higher ink capacities in the reservoir when using feeds designed to have better control over the (read, more restricted) ink flow, which is common in the rather precisely designed feeds from PIlot, Sailor, Platinum, and Lamy. In some simpler, less controlled feeds (Italian Ebonite feeds, such as that from Santini), I don't notice this change as much, but it is still there, despite those pens often being fire hoses. 

 

All of this means I can see quite a lot of line variation even during a long writing session with a pen, to say nothing of the variation from pen to pen. 

 

It does sound like you'll have the most luck with a Pilot EF if you want to stick with Pilot, but unless you have a strong aversion to feedback, you may also want to consider the pens from Platinum and Sailor. I have found the Sailor pens to write a little drier and a little finer than the Pilot counterparts personally, while having a little bit of bounce and an interesting grind that I could see being quite useful at the F - EF range. I have a soft spot for Platinum, though, and their nibs are much more precise feeling (at the expense of softness) in how they touch to the paper, and I find that they give a much more consistent line across the range of their writing sweet spot (which I find to be wider than the others) compared to Sailor or Pilot. I also don't find them writing as purely wet as Pilots, but you get something very consistent. I also find their line widths to be slightly finer than the equivalent in Pilot's line also likely in no small part due to the difference in wetness that I see. Moreover, Platinum (and Nakaya) offers their #3776 nib in a range of sizes, including F and EF and XXF, as well as "soft" and standard hard variations. You may be able to find something that fits your needs well in that range, too. 

 

It's quite possible that a Sailor or Platinum F might be just that little bit drier and finer to match your desire to have something just between Kakuno F and EF. But of course, it's almost impossible to say for sure unless you try a specific, individual pen out in a store. 

[CoolBreeze]

18 hours ago, arcfide said:

 

Generally speaking, I agree that PIlot's gold nibs seem to run broader and wetter than their steel nibs. A big part of this, I think, is that they are a little more naturally flexible, and so that encourages a little more tine movement under writing, even with a very light hand. 

 

As for the ink wetness between the filling systems, I believe it is highly noticeable if you are very sensitive to ink flow. I am speaking mostly from the experience of broader nibs, and people who only use XEF and EF nibs may not feel the same way, but with almost all of my pens, it is quite easy to detect differences in flow rates between even a converter and a cartridge because of ink volume/pressure changes, and the differences are even larger when dealing with ink volumes in excess of 1ml. The change in flow rates and wetness between 1ml cartridges and 2ml or greater vacuum and eyedropper pens can be quite stark depending on how full the vacuum filler is. When the pen is completely full and you just begin to write, as you desaturate the feed but the air volume hasn't increased too much in the reservoir, you can see a much drier line; as you get to a majority of air vs ink in the reservoir, I notice a distinct increase in wetness. I can see this occur in all of my pens, but it is most distinct with wetter pens and higher ink capacities in the reservoir when using feeds designed to have better control over the (read, more restricted) ink flow, which is common in the rather precisely designed feeds from PIlot, Sailor, Platinum, and Lamy. In some simpler, less controlled feeds (Italian Ebonite feeds, such as that from Santini), I don't notice this change as much, but it is still there, despite those pens often being fire hoses. 

 

All of this means I can see quite a lot of line variation even during a long writing session with a pen, to say nothing of the variation from pen to pen. 

 

It does sound like you'll have the most luck with a Pilot EF if you want to stick with Pilot, but unless you have a strong aversion to feedback, you may also want to consider the pens from Platinum and Sailor. I have found the Sailor pens to write a little drier and a little finer than the Pilot counterparts personally, while having a little bit of bounce and an interesting grind that I could see being quite useful at the F - EF range. I have a soft spot for Platinum, though, and their nibs are much more precise feeling (at the expense of softness) in how they touch to the paper, and I find that they give a much more consistent line across the range of their writing sweet spot (which I find to be wider than the others) compared to Sailor or Pilot. I also don't find them writing as purely wet as Pilots, but you get something very consistent. I also find their line widths to be slightly finer than the equivalent in Pilot's line also likely in no small part due to the difference in wetness that I see. Moreover, Platinum (and Nakaya) offers their #3776 nib in a range of sizes, including F and EF and XXF, as well as "soft" and standard hard variations. You may be able to find something that fits your needs well in that range, too. 

 

It's quite possible that a Sailor or Platinum F might be just that little bit drier and finer to match your desire to have something just between Kakuno F and EF. But of course, it's almost impossible to say for sure unless you try a specific, individual pen out in a store. 

Thank you for the response. Regarding large ink capacities and wetter ink. I definitely prefer at least a specific wetness/saturation in my ink so I can understand where you are coming from regarding darker/wetter lines as the volume decreases. I don’t know much about the topic and have always assumed it had to do with evaporation. Across my eyedroppers/pistons/cc filers - I would write a line after uncapping…then scribble/color multiple boxes filled with ink as if you were coloring with the pen. Each box started getting lighter and lighter. Then I wrote the same line of text and it was also lighter. I attributed this to the ink in the feed was more evaporated than the ink that was in the body that eventually replaced it. However, this was not a scientific test to determine causation so I don’t know if that is true.

 

Regarding feedback - I guess it depends what kind it is. My Diplomat and Faber Castell pens have very pleasurable feedback that is audible but doesn’t make it unpleasurable for me to write with. I have only one Platinum (a preppy 0.3) and I don’t enjoy the feedback at all. That being said, someone on youtube said that you have to upgrade to the Platinum Cool to get the specific feedback you might get with the Platinum’s gold nibs. I am not sure if that is true. Figboot seems to think Platinum gold nibs are bouncy yet everyone else seems to think they are as hard as a nail and I wouldn’t mind a bit of cushion if I can get it. Interestingly enough, my 0.3 preppy wrote an entire mm larger than the Kokuno F (same ink and same paper) which I was surprised with and it was also below my preferences regarding wetness as it was also drier too.

 

Regarding Sailor - I tested a bunch of nibs at the Sailor table for their Pro Gear series of pens a long time back at the DC pen show…looking back at those writing samples I agree with you in that they are really nice regarding their fineness. That being said, I don’t remember if I enjoyed the feedback on the nibs as much.

[arcfide]

Given what seems to be a preference for a wetter line and probably not too much feedback, I'd say that it would be a riskier proposition to go for a Platinum or Sailor without giving them another try in store first. Given all of that, I suspect that the EF Pilot would be the nib I would at least try next. One option, since you have a VP already, would be to purchase an EF nib unit for that pen and see if you like it. That's not really a direct comparison between the pens, but it might be cheaper to play with.

 

As for the Platinum bounce, they do have bounce, and they are flexible to a degree. They are not complete nails (none of the Gold Japanese pens really qualify in that arena), but the #3776 and President nibs definitely seem to be a little stiffer than Pilot or Sailor in the same size. On the other hand, the flatter profile of the #3776 gives a degree of flex without the same amount of line variation, which means you can get a bit of cushion from the pen without leading to large amounts of variation in the written line. That's often the opposite of what some people want, but it does mean that you get a very precise pen that is also easy on the hand to a degree. The smaller nib that Platinum puts on some of their pens (PTL models?) seems to have an inherently higher degree of softness to it, and it also has a good reputation for fineness, which might be something to look at as well, but those are thinner and lighter pens, so that's quite a bit different than the larger nibs and larger pens that you're looking at here. 

 

All in all, if I were in your shoes, I would probably be looking at the PIlot EF nibs to start with, but if I had the disposable income, I'd certainly be exploring the other Japanese options and some of the nib variations as well, just to see what worked best for me. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

Don’t know if it helps, but here’s an 845 (Medium) on Leuchtturm (top) and Midori MD (bottom) paper, using the driest ink I own, Pelikan 4001 Blue Black too minimize wetness. 
 

 

I suspect medium will be far too thick for you, it was for me until I got used to it. 
 

And sample Pilot nibs just in case, first two are #10 nibs. 

1. 823 Fine

2. 912 Fine-Medium

3. 845 Medium
 

I have a 743 but it’s a Falcon flex nib so probably not helpful. 

[CoolBreeze]

On 1/13/2023 at 6:16 PM, arcfide said:

Given what seems to be a preference for a wetter line and probably not too much feedback, I'd say that it would be a riskier proposition to go for a Platinum or Sailor without giving them another try in store first. Given all of that, I suspect that the EF Pilot would be the nib I would at least try next. One option, since you have a VP already, would be to purchase an EF nib unit for that pen and see if you like it. That's not really a direct comparison between the pens, but it might be cheaper to play with.

 

As for the Platinum bounce, they do have bounce, and they are flexible to a degree. They are not complete nails (none of the Gold Japanese pens really qualify in that arena), but the #3776 and President nibs definitely seem to be a little stiffer than Pilot or Sailor in the same size. On the other hand, the flatter profile of the #3776 gives a degree of flex without the same amount of line variation, which means you can get a bit of cushion from the pen without leading to large amounts of variation in the written line. That's often the opposite of what some people want, but it does mean that you get a very precise pen that is also easy on the hand to a degree. The smaller nib that Platinum puts on some of their pens (PTL models?) seems to have an inherently higher degree of softness to it, and it also has a good reputation for fineness, which might be something to look at as well, but those are thinner and lighter pens, so that's quite a bit different than the larger nibs and larger pens that you're looking at here. 

 

All in all, if I were in your shoes, I would probably be looking at the PIlot EF nibs to start with, but if I had the disposable income, I'd certainly be exploring the other Japanese options and some of the nib variations as well, just to see what worked best for me. 

Thank you so much for this. I actually really like the idea of playing with a VP EF nib to see how it goes. I also appreciate your explanation of Platinum nibs. I know a lot of people like line variation but I don't necessary need that and don't want it if it can turn my EF into a B. I do like cushion just for the sake of writing enjoyment and comfort. I suspect I may have to try the Platinum nibs in the future. Thanks again!

[CoolBreeze]

On 1/14/2023 at 11:50 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

Don’t know if it helps, but here’s an 845 (Medium) on Leuchtturm (top) and Midori MD (bottom) paper, using the driest ink I own, Pelikan 4001 Blue Black too minimize wetness. 
 

 

I suspect medium will be far too thick for you, it was for me until I got used to it. 
 

And sample Pilot nibs just in case, first two are #10 nibs. 

1. 823 Fine

2. 912 Fine-Medium

3. 845 Medium
 

I have a 743 but it’s a Falcon flex nib so probably not helpful. 

Beautiful writing samples!  thank you so much for the upload. I definitely wouldn't want anything larger than a F for sure given those samples. May I ask what the line ruling is? It looks ~7mm but I wanted to double check. Thank you again!

[PeregrineFalcon]

4 hours ago, CoolBreeze said:

Beautiful writing samples!  thank you so much for the upload. I definitely wouldn't want anything larger than a F for sure given those samples. May I ask what the line ruling is? It looks ~7mm but I wanted to double check. Thank you again!

No problem 😉 

 

In the first picture, the top sample Leuchtturm paper has 6mm ruling. And the bottom Midori MD sample has 7mm ruling. 
 

The second picture is Leuchtturm 6mm ruling. 
 

Good luck! 👍