Higher cost inks- thoughts?

[Karmachanic]

6 hours ago, TitoThePencilPimp said:

Was going to purchase the Black, Coffee, and Lilac. All sold out

 

Try here: 三田三昭堂 (mitasanshodo.myshopify.com)

[Karmachanic]

6 hours ago, inkstainedruth said:

Now I'm wondering if this is yet another "boutique" ink that Sailor makes for specific shops....

 

Sailor makes the inks in  the square bottles.  The "sumi" inks are made by Kuretake

[txomsy]

16 hours ago, ksx4system said:

 

I wanted to try it because it's dirt cheap and easily available where I live but not sure if I still want to...

 

 

I've got pretty similar usage scenario. Thanks for elaborating and have a great day

 

Given its low price tag, and that it is ISO certified registrar ink, I would still give it a try. Not much to lose (about 6.5 €/50 ml plastic bottle). That is what I did the first time, and I ended up getting 4 more bottles of each color (black and blue). I am aware of the limitations, but find the somewhat grayish black and the varying tones of the blue rather attractive. I just am careful and tolerant of its idiosyncrasies.

 

[txomsy]

That said, I went yesterday to a B&M fountain pen shop to get a new bottle of Montblanc Document Blue as well as a few tiny Kaweco converters and a nostalgia clip for a Liliput. Oh! and I also ordered an 80m bottle of Diamine Skull & Roses online.

 

As you see, I find that I am more attached to the hues and properties (permanence, sheen, shading, ...) than to the price of the ink.

 

Early on in my youth, I developed a price grading system: choose something you like and do not think twice about paying its price, say, having a drink (e.g. a beer, tea or coffee with friends), and use it as meter. For some price (say, the 60 ml bottle of MB permanent blue cost me  28€ yesterday) simply convert it to "I like" units.

 

For example: if a 2 EUR coffee were to give you half an hour fun, 28 EUR would mean 7 hours of fun. How much hours of fun would you expect to get out of a 60ml bottle of MB Permanent Blue? Even if the type of fun is not directly comparable, you may come up with a subjective conversion factor.

 

With this approach, many inks (whose hue and properties I do like) will give me more (vital/subjective) satisfaction for the same price, and if I do not think twice about having that cup of coffee, then I shouldn't about the cost of that ink.

 

From that point of view, if I think in advance and study the reviews, there are many "supposedly expensive" inks that will actually not be so expensive if I consider the "happyness-factor" they will produce in exchange for their price.

 

After all (and at the risk of infringing forum rules), pen, ink or paper will not help me after I pass away (not even if I take them to the tomb as in some religions). But the past, and the fun I have already had in that past, nobody can take away from me (not even Alzheimer's, I may forget it, but I did have the fun). Thus, for me, fun is a better meter than just the money tags.

 

Then there is comparative "pricing". For example I do prefer the color of BSB, but it is not so permanent and is much worse behaved. If BSB did behave better I might ignore its UV sensibility and favor it over MB PB. As things are, I use both.

[ksx4system]

46 minutes ago, txomsy said:

I would still give it a try. Not much to lose (about 6.5 €/50 ml plastic bottle).

 

Then I'll give it a try at some point since it's much cheaper here (around 2 EUR per 50ml bottle).

[txomsy]

Darn! I should have suspected it and bought several bottles when I went to Poland this summer. Amazing country, by the way. And even most amazing people.

 

Actually, one of my sons has asked to do his Erasmus+ stay in Poland, so I suppose I may have more chances if he gets the approval. And if not, I have friends there.

[dipper]

On 1/6/2023 at 3:04 PM, txomsy said:

...... Given its low price tag, and that it is ISO certified registrar ink .......

 

In the past I have wondered if being "ISO certified" justified paying more for an expensive ink. Or, as @txomsy notes, would that be an added encouragement to buy a cheaper ink if that ink is "ISO certified"?

 

The answer must depend on exactly what the standards specify. (Though I note that the lack of an ISO standard claim on the labelling does not mean that an ink would not meet the standards if it was tested.) Bottle labelling can be vague ....

 

 

Searching the web, some years ago, revealed the names and numbers of some relevant standards..... and a fee of £35 or so per document to read the contents of the documents. That was the end of my research!

 

This forum topic has sparked my interest again, so I repeated some of the past searching. (At least searching is free!)

Today I find at iso.org that ISO standards can be read and downloaded for a fee of 61 Swiss Francs per document. No thanks!

 

This is sad. I really did want to know more concerning test methods to determine the resistance of printing inks to spices. Not one reviewer on FPNetwork has ever included a spice test in an ink review! This is seriously worrying me....

https://www.iso.org/standard/7841.html

 

The ISO site tells me that from the UK I can visit the BSI web store. (British Standards Institute.) Follow the link ....

And some fumbling in the BSI search system brings up...

 

BS 3484-2:1994
Record inks - Specification for permanent inks

 

Ahahh! Can I read it please?

... Non member price £120.00

... Member price £60.00

 

However...

A limited section of this Standard has been made available to preview as a PDF download.

 

And the preview shows us ..

Do I dare I reveal it? This is clearly highly valuable secret knowledge....

The front page only, showing the standard code and name.

 

. - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - 

 

So what to do?

Lacking any information about the contents of the ISO standards I choose to ignore ISO standard claims on ink bottle labels as a factor when deciding which ink to buy.

 

On the other hand, I do carry out my own tests for lightfastness and water resistance. And reviews published here or elsewhere of tests performed by users are always of value.

 

I have tested lightfastness of ballpoint pen inks in the past, with months of outdoor exposure to daylight. In a large group test most ballpoint inks faded badly, including a pen that claimed to be "ISO standard".

The one outstanding survivor was the Fisher Space Pen. That pen's ink seems to contain two mixed colour components, one of which fades at a rate similar to other pens, and the other component that remained unchanged through months of summer sunshine exposure.

The Fisher Space Pen does not claim to meet any ISO standards.

 

[TitoThePencilPimp]

On 1/6/2023 at 1:07 AM, Karmachanic said:

 

Try here: 三田三昭堂 (mitasanshodo.myshopify.com)

thank you !!!!

[XYZZY]

2 hours ago, dipper said:

 

In the past I have wondered if being "ISO certified" justified paying more for an expensive ink. Or, as @txomsy notes, would that be an added encouragement to buy a cheaper ink if that ink is "ISO certified"?

 

The answer must depend on exactly what the standards specify. (Though I note that the lack of an ISO standard claim on the labelling does not mean that an ink would not meet the standards if it was tested.) Bottle labelling can be vague ....

 

 

Searching the web, some years ago, revealed the names and numbers of some relevant standards..... and a fee of £35 or so per document to read the contents of the documents. That was the end of my research!

 

This forum topic has sparked my interest again, so I repeated some of the past searching. (At least searching is free!)

Today I find at iso.org that ISO standards can be read and downloaded for a fee of 61 Swiss Francs per document. No thanks!

 

This is sad. I really did want to know more concerning test methods to determine the resistance of printing inks to spices. Not one reviewer on FPNetwork has ever included a spice test in an ink review! This is seriously worrying me....

https://www.iso.org/standard/7841.html

 

The ISO site tells me that from the UK I can visit the BSI web store. (British Standards Institute.) Follow the link ....

And some fumbling in the BSI search system brings up...

 

BS 3484-2:1994
Record inks - Specification for permanent inks

 

Ahahh! Can I read it please?

... Non member price £120.00

... Member price £60.00

 

However...

A limited section of this Standard has been made available to preview as a PDF download.

 

And the preview shows us ..

Do I dare I reveal it? This is clearly highly valuable secret knowledge....

The front page only, showing the standard code and name.

 

. - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - . - 

 

So what to do?

Lacking any information about the contents of the ISO standards I choose to ignore ISO standard claims on ink bottle labels as a factor when deciding which ink to buy.

 

On the other hand, I do carry out my own tests for lightfastness and water resistance. And reviews published here or elsewhere of tests performed by users are always of value.

 

I have tested lightfastness of ballpoint pen inks in the past, with months of outdoor exposure to daylight. In a large group test most ballpoint inks faded badly, including a pen that claimed to be "ISO standard".

The one outstanding survivor was the Fisher Space Pen. That pen's ink seems to contain two mixed colour components, one of which fades at a rate similar to other pens, and the other component that remained unchanged through months of summer sunshine exposure.

The Fisher Space Pen does not claim to meet any ISO standards.

 

 

You're right about the vague label on your Cross ink bottle.  Being an American subject to advertising constantly stretching the truth, I would be skeptical of that label since it doesn't go as far as claiming that they meet any particular standard.  I would expect it is deliberately implying it meets some standard while the corporate lawyers know it means something else and yet is strictly true to the words if you knew that alternate meaning.

Also, IIRC the ISO standards for ink permanence are all self-certified, so you have to trust that they followed the tests.  I do not mean to imply they're doing a Volkswagen, but those standards can be complicated and I wouldn't expect everybody to interpret them the same way.  In other words, two different companies with good and honest intentions will probably end up running different tests, and thus achieving (or failing at) slightly different things.

 

I just did a bit of clicking around.  ISO 12757-2 and 14145-2 are standards for ball point and gel pens, respectively.  The "...-2" of those standards is for the "document" use, whereas the "...-1" is for general use.

[Detman101]

W00+!!!!
I have thwarted the "High-Cost Ink" demons by avoiding purchasing another bottle of ink to get the "Dark-Blurple/Royal Blue" I've been seeking.
I've done so by mixing "Kon Peki" with "Kong Girls" at a 70%/30% mix!
😁 

 

W - I - N ! ! ! ! ! 

[arcfide]

2 hours ago, dipper said:

So what to do?

Lacking any information about the contents of the ISO standards I choose to ignore ISO standard claims on ink bottle labels as a factor when deciding which ink to buy.

 

On the other hand, I do carry out my own tests for lightfastness and water resistance. And reviews published here or elsewhere of tests performed by users are always of value.

 

I have tested lightfastness of ballpoint pen inks in the past, with months of outdoor exposure to daylight. In a large group test most ballpoint inks faded badly, including a pen that claimed to be "ISO standard".

 

 

I do have the relevant ISO standard for permanent inks referenced by Montblanc, which is a standard usually used for rollerball and other liquid ink ball pens, but which is reasonably relevant to fountain pen inks. The document does in fact have reasonable information on the testing standards for various tests, but the main point is to identify what is tested and how to judge whether it has passed the test in a reliable way. There's nothing magical about it, but it does serve a specific repeatability goal. 

 

However, there are also ISO standards for pens that are just about their function, and not about their permanency. 

[Arkanabar]

I'm more than a little cost-conscious, so a high-priced ink has to have something over the less expensive alternatives for me to buy it.  I was taught growing up to use the least expensive option that met my needs, so that "something over" has to be something besides conspicious consumption, which seems built into a great deal of human behavior, such as why the Lexus ES has cost a lot more than a nigh-equivalent Toyota Camry, and why lipsticks have far more distinctive appearance than compacts -- they are more often used in public.

 

Writing experience is subjective, and also affected by pen and paper.  It can even be affected by the bottle, and there are several bottles intended to ease filling, such as the Sheaffer sidewell bottles, Akkerman's glass bead bottle, the little cones in the bottoms of Iro and Lamy bottles, and the tipping facets on Waterman and Pelikan 4001 bottles.  What you've gotten (and will get) are all the things that people subjectively think justifies the extra expense of the "premium" inks, in addition the philosophical discussion of what constitutes "expensive" and "worth."

 

And as others have pointed out, there are also transaction costs, such as shopping and shipping -- the longer I have to spend hunting down a stockist, the less an ink is going to appeal to me.  These costs are also why I did my best to pare my ink palette down to eight or nine -- one or two blacks, and one each of blue-black, purple, blue, green, brown, and markup, all of which are low cost brands in my part of the world (J. Herbin, Pelikan, Pilot, Noodler's, and Diamine -- the story is linked in my signature).

 

That said, we do have a few "premium" inks.  I will always have Iro Ku-Jaku to put into my aqua M205, which it color matches delightfully and in which it behaves beautifully.  My wife gave me both, and the pen in fact rescued the ink.  And my wife loves the 1670 glitter inks, and has bought a few, none of which have been opened.  (I fill all her pens, and I think using glitter and shimmer inks is just asking for trouble.  But so too is using Noodler's Bad Black Moccasin, and I'mma Use Up That Ink If It Kills Me!)

[ajoe]

My ink budget is so low I don't even think about price.

 

I only use black ink.

I only use ink made by the manufacturer of the pen I am using.

That means I only need ink from Montblanc, Sailor, & Lamy.

Montblanc Mystery Black = $26 / 60 ml

Sailor Black = $15 / 50 ml

Lamy Black = $12 / 50 ml

 

I do have a bottle of Aurora Black ($20 / 45 ml) that I use on the occasion when some random pen finds its way into the house.

[Bo Bo Olson]

 

The $and Euro are close together in worth now....10 years ago, the dollar was worth lots less.

I don't need permanent inks, nor supersaturated ones. I like shading.

 

Some 14-15 years ago, MB then the most hated ink in the world...on this com, went from a E-12-50ml bottle to a E-13-new 60ml bottle. I do like the old E-12-50ml Sepia.

Lavender may be ok....I have 8-10 at least, MB inks Toffee is one I like. The rest are @ matched by others that are cheaper.

That MB cost 3 1/2 more than 4001 didn't bother me, I would buy MB inks when my wallet didn't have a sprained elbow. No big deal.....then.....There was the thing, MB had twice as much ink as the 30ml 4001 inks.

 

A few years later Pelikan came in with a fancy glass bottle Edelstein for E-15. A lot of glass, not much ink. 4001 costs E5.00+....how much I don't know in I've not bought a bottle in about a decade....in there are the rest of the 99-105 inks.

 

In the meanwhile before Amazon stepped in Japanese ink was going for E-70-75 a bottle here in Germany.....now @ E-25, over my limit. Have  one bottle to see what the fuss was all about....50ml Kon Peki is not a bad ink, but not worth E-25 IMO. Nice glass bottle.

 

Oh, I'm retired, so money still has a worth. I was shocked by the high prices in the States some 15 or more years ago (I only had one bowl of chili in the month I was there!!!! Not counting motel microwaved chili. One cocktail too.)....and that is back in the 'good ol'days', for prices from my reading. What was that $15; for a head of political Broccoli? So high ink prices don't scare there.

 

 

Everyone and his bother (I didn't notice they were from the States) complained about the high price of the old Cd'A ink. When they discontinued I finally went looking here in Germany, and they were about E-8 (Stateside prices must have been very high to hear the squeal from there over here)....The new ones at E-35...here......

Graf von FC was E-35, think it dropped to E-30. someone gave me a 25E birthday gift from my B&M....so I got a bottle...Moss Green ...used only once...nice ink, but vastly over priced. Didn't shade as much as I had hoped from the ink Reviews. At that price I read every review of that outrageously priced ink.

 

Back to MB....when it hit E-15 for the shoe and the tiny bottle of LE inks E23 I said ok. Logical, inflation.

Then in the space of 4 years or was that just 3 years,  it went from E-15 to E-19 and then to E-22 for the shoe.........I think the tiny bottles of LE ink hit E-30...don't know, I stopped looking.

That is price gouging, but MB had to keep up with the Japanese, Cd'A, G-V-FC Jones.

 

E23 MB vs @ E-5 for 4001.....4 1/2 to one....

 

Now Edelstein is E-19.50. Up some 4 1/2 Euros in over a decade and more from it being E16 from the start.....nearly inside of the inflation range....when It hit 18E IMO that was inside of inflation.....now I am wondering if gouging is contagious.

 

What am I to do, my common sense limit is E-20, and I'm sure next year's Edelstein ink that thankfully I didn't like anyway will crack my E-20 border.

I do after i order my five Diamine inks tomorrow when I pick up last years teal Edelstein...I can become a one ink a year guy....and buy  which ever Edelstein I like (half the ones lately I didn't care for)...............or just say, good by Edelstein.

 

DA is getting expensive; pushing E15 in some cases.

Herbin too, now E-10 or so.....

Aurora just priced it's famous black out of my range.....of course I don't use black....and have the blue...at back in the day prices. At that price I'm not even going to look at their new color....why? They too are chasing the Jones.

 

Tomorrow when I pick up my teal/Apatite  Edelstein ink; I'll order five 30ml Diamine shading inks. I do foolish things like order my inks from my B&M, in he's having a hard time with high inflation and Convid. I like drooling in his MB pen corner.

There's a well liked Polish ink that is affordable too.

 R&K makes a great E-8.50 ink.

 

 

(((I do 'waste' ink money on used pens in live auction lots and inkwells.....and actually have more inks (95-100 or so)  than I'll use in my life time........but I'll never again buy MB Toffee, so will find substitutes and make the 1/5th bottle last till the end.)))

It appears I nearly lucked out with two bottles of Edeldstein Smoky Quartz.

[amper]

On 12/3/2022 at 3:07 AM, cougarking said:

Just wonder what people thoughts are on the higher cost inks,  and benefits, are they ŵorth the cost.

 

do they make a great difference to the writing experience.

 

I don't know what "higher cost" means. My daily writing is is my favorite ink of all time, Mrs. Stewart's Concentrated Liquid Bluing, and it costs about $5-6 USD for an 8 oz bottle, in 2023.

Today, UPS delivered to me two bottles of Teranishi Guitar Brand Taisho Roman Haikara ink in Modern Red and Antique Black, which sell for $18 USD for a 40 mL bottle. That seems expensive, even to me, but the next inks on my list are Kakimori pigment inks, which sell for 2750 JPY or $28 USD for a 35 mL bottle.

I also very much enjoy the Sailor Jentle/Shikiori and Kobe INK Monogatari inks (both made by Sailor, the Kobe line is exclusive to Japanese pen retailer Nagasawa; same ink, different colors). A 50 mL bottle cost me $23 USD in 2019. Sailor no longer sells the 50 mL bottles of their own branded line, but Nagasawa still offers 50 mL bottles, which sell for about $32 USD at retail in the US. A 20 mL bottle of Sailor Shikiori will cost you $18 USD at retail.

Are these inks "worth it"? They are, to me. You may not find the expense provides you with enough satisfaction to justify the cost.

[amper]

On 12/4/2022 at 1:34 PM, arcfide said:

Platinum made a special edition of their blue black specifically with a small percentage of the water in the ink sourced from Mount Fuji. The ink is otherwise identical, IIRC. Well, that silly little gimmick is worth something to me, because I like the Platinum brand and I like that ink. It's a fun oddity and is sort of "special" if only by virtue of the ink being labelled differently. That's worth something to me. 

It's probably worth mentioning that, in Japanese culture, the relationship to nature and to place is, or at least can be, extremely important. The traditional religion of Japan, Shintō, is a Nature-based religion, so while sourcing water from Fuji-san might be a "silly little gimmick" to you, I assure you it is not seen that way by many Japanese people.

[amper]

On 12/3/2022 at 1:15 PM, I-am-not-really-here said:

Some inks are expensive not because of the liquid but rather the container it comes in. Do you want fancy cut glass or cheap plastic?

I do like a nice piece of glass, but, my favorite ink of all comes in a plastic bottle. I pour the cheap ink into an expensive bottle.

[amper]

On 1/6/2023 at 4:10 AM, Karmachanic said:

 

Sailor makes the inks in  the square bottles.  The "sumi" inks are made by Kuretake

Really? I didn't know that. I like Kuretake, i used to sell their products, back when.

[amper]

When it comes to ink, my main requirements are color and permanence, and which I value more depends on the purpose to which I plan to put that ink. Fortunately for me, my favorite ink is both a gorgeous color and permanent, and it also happens to be extremely inexpensive and widely available, at least, in the US...I've never shopped for it overseas, so I have no idea if it's even available outside of North America.

So, with that out of the way, any other ink I choose to buy is more than likely going to be primarily on the basis of the color, like the Taisho Roman Haikara inks I just bought. The Modern Red is the best and truest red I have ever seen. I bought the Antique Black only because I wanted a black ink to pair with a red ink for a particular purpose, and I have a fetish for things that are matching. In the Taisho Roman Haikara line is also what might be the most beautiful violet ink I've ever seen, Salon de Violet, so that is definitely on my list for the future, and there are several other colors in that line that I think are gorgeous, although whether or not I will actually end up buying them is another story.

The Sailor inks I want only for the colors, primarily for the two cherry blossom pinks, Sailor Sakuri Mori and Kobe Ikutagawa Sakura. These are purely novelty/fashion/seasonal color for me, for fun.

For the Kakimori inks, I am primarily interested in them because they are pigment inks, not dye inks, because pigments inks are permanent, but dye inks generally are not. And I have a particular purpose in mind for those, as well, for use with fantasy role-playing games.

Prestige or luxury are not concerns for me, at all.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Not all Edelstein inks are as dry as the 4001 inks that the Pelikan nibs were designed to use. Dry ink, wet nib.

So using a wet ink in a Pelikan nib, will have you running down the street chasing Noah.

 

 

Once back in the day...Waterman was considered a wet ink (I even bought some for a dry nibbed pen...worked on it just great.).....though there are some Noodler users who think Waterman ink dry.

Wet ink was why Waterman was one of the thin western nibs. My vintage Mann 200's F is as thin as my new Pelikan 200's EF.