Higher cost inks- thoughts?

[The Mustard]

If you have a fixed ink budget in the UK and you want to get good bang for your buck then I don’t think you can go far wrong with Diamine inks.  I have lots of different brands of ink but I think I could manage exclusively with Diamine perhaps with the exception of Platinum Carbon Black which would always be on my desert island shortlist.

 

Interestingly I would also say that Damson is the most underwhelming Diamine ink I own.

 

[inkstainedruth]

I have inexpensive inks and expensive inks.  

For me, it's color and behavior -- and behavior can include how well an ink works in a pen as well as how water resistant/UV resistant it is.  For example, Iroshizuku Yama-guri is too wet for the pen I originally bought it for (my Pelikan M400 Brown Tortoise).  But Edelstein Smoky Quartz, which is pretty much the same color?  Just enough drier that it works well in that pen.

My favorite ink is actually, in some respects, one of the worst behaving -- Noodler's Kung Te Cheng.  It's thick (some people have described it as being the consistency of PAINT), and it's got nib creep and clogging issues.  OTOH, it's pretty much EVERYTHING proof -- waterproof and UV resistant -- and my bottle is a pretty amazing color (dark indigo blue with purple undertones).  And I bought it in the larger eye-dropper top bottles, so not horribly expensive per oz.  My old bank *insisted* on having checks written with either blue or black ink -- but never blinked an eye over my signing checks with it (any more than they did for me using Noodler's El Lawrence ).  

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[AceNinja]

Definition of "Higher cost" inks, I suppose everyone has a different definition of higher cost inks.  Please allow me to contribute a data point for consideration, its only stating my point of view, which is affected by the cost I can get from my location. 

 

Higher cost inks: Pilot Iroshizuku, Pelikan Edelstein, Platinum inks, especially the carbon black, All sailor inks (all series), Colourverse, Lamy Crystal inks

Lower cost inks: Pilot basic inks, Pelikan 4001, Diamine especially the basic line, Lamy basic line, Parker quink, Waterman

And then, there's cheap china ink: Hero, Jinhao, Karkos

[arcfide]

I've been thinking about how much I tend to gravitate to the "basic" inks. I have the basic inks of Waterman, Parker, Pilot, Sailor, Platinum, Sheaffer, Herbin, Pelikan, Lamy, and F-C, possibly others. They dominate my ink collection. It definitely has to do with my personality, but nothing to do with price. I think the fountain pen ink business has been around long enough that the basics have been really well sorted out, and they tend to be technically sound on an objective level more than all other inks, as a rule. You generally won't find more well-behaved, easier to maintain, consistent, reliable, or stable inks. From an objective standpoint, I think these exist as they are, as standard inks, because they really are the inks that have stood the test of time and beaten out all the competitors as the best all-around inks. Because they've been around so long, they're also quite affordable. 

 

In some ways, I think what you're paying for with other inks is the chance for them to "not be basic inks." That means deviating from the best all-around formula and highlighting something in particular that you like. This might be permanence, or some other technical feature, but more often than not, the thing you're paying for is the chance to get different colors than standard inks, even at the cost of behavior and overall performance. Most other more expensive inks objectively perform worse across a range of papers and pens and aren't as reliable as the standard inks, but they will have a different, unique color, or properties such as sheen which make them different, and that's primarily what I think people pay for. 

 

I think this is interesting, because there are many industries in which this is not the case, but in the fountain pen ink market, I do think that you almost always have to give something up in order to gain something off of the standard inks. Of course, ink color is so much a factor these days that people happily give up other features just to be able to get that extra something. The Jacques Herbin inks are a great example. They are *super* pricey, and even they will admit that their standard inks are probably a little more well-behaved and generally reliable. Their Noir Abyssal ink is only an incremental improvement over their Perle Noire ink. And their "standard" premium line-up isn't necessarily super water-resistant or the like, and is a little less well-behaved on papers than their basic line. *But*, what you get in return are super-rich, vibrant, and intense colors that I haven't seen adequately replicated elsewhere (even though they are still the "basic" colors), that flow beautifully from a pen, and lay down intense, rich lines, all packaged up in pretty bottles and rich packaging. If you were to take that rich writing experience and color out of the equation as mattering that much, then the premium, expensive inks are objectively worse than their basic line, but people, including myself, will pay for that little incremental extra, even if it literally gives us more trouble on the page.

[senzen]

I'm price sensitive but inks make a huge difference to me; I don't want "some blue" but the precise hue of Tsuyu Kusa, Blue Velvet or Ama Iro, likewise for other colours. My quest has been to find the right pen for each of about 35 inks; what's odd is that two examples of the same pen, with the same nib size can generate different hues of the same ink.

 

I really disliked Sailor changing some of their bottles from 50ml to 20ml but eventually found even these at a more acceptable price.

 

Beyond colours you have flow properties, all my Pilot iroshizukus have been so trouble free I know if there's a problem it's bound to be the pen, which usually means it just needs to be cleaned.

[RJS]

On a side note, I feel happier paying more for inks with a degree of permanence. Waterman, in my eyes, produce some colours that are perfect, and they're also extremely well behaved inks. The fact they wash away without a trace when water is applied deters me from having these as my primary inks, not that I've suffered much water damage in my life to speak of.

 

I don't feel the need for inks that are absolutely permanent when exposed to water like Seiboku is, but I want to have something readable on the page remain- even the grey lines that Montblanc Irish Green leaves behind will do- it looks like you wrote with an H pencil, but at least your words aren't lost.

[vtgt]

You don't have to make a blanket assumption about the quality of inks with regard to price. Almost all inks will have someone who has reviewed it somewhere, so you can make a very specific assessment over its suitability for you. Number one manufacturer of inks you need to check reviews of is probably Noodler's. They seem to change their inks from batch to batch based simply on the principle of thrift and whatever chemicals they have left. You probably need a review in the last couple of years and to cross your fingers and hope for the best.

[TitoThePencilPimp]

I find $25 max a good price for 50mL ink. I start to tighten my purse strings when the cost of a bottle hits $30.  I have started to replace most of Sailor inks with Pilot Iro look alike. The only Sailor ink I would consider always having multiples of is Rikyu-Cha. Since it is cheaper per mL to purchase the Iro in the states.

 

I do not mind spending more, but it has to be something not offered by others. Ie., Hakase Sepia ( 3 empty bottles and counting).

 

If one wants to keep the cost  of inks down, consider looking for places that offer bulk discounts, or cheaper overall. Ie., Appelboom offers a significant price reduction on most items when purchased in 5/10.  This is how I purchased the majority of the  Edelstein line. Cultpens  when diamine ink is on sale +10% coupon code. Akkerman ink from the official retailer. 

 

It all depends where you are located.

 

 

[ksx4system]

On 12/4/2022 at 3:47 PM, txomsy said:

Koh-i-Noor Document blue is permanent, well behaved, but stains the sink like BSB, the hue changes with time in the pen (maybe due to oxidization?) from a vivid, pale blue to dark blue, and costs (here) 4-6 times less.

Could you please elaborate? How old is your bottle of Koh-i-Noor Document Blue? Thanks in advance.

[Detman101]

On 12/13/2022 at 5:07 PM, inkstainedruth said:

I have inexpensive inks and expensive inks.  

For me, it's color and behavior -- and behavior can include how well an ink works in a pen as well as how water resistant/UV resistant it is.  For example, Iroshizuku Yama-guri is too wet for the pen I originally bought it for (my Pelikan M400 Brown Tortoise).  But Edelstein Smoky Quartz, which is pretty much the same color?  Just enough drier that it works well in that pen.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

I love the lubrication in Iroshizuku inks...but not the pricing.
This is just what I needed to know. I'll just use my Smoky Quartz instead of buying "Yama Guri".
Thank you!

[Karmachanic]

On 12/20/2022 at 9:47 AM, TitoThePencilPimp said:

 If ind $25 max a good price for 50mL ink

 

I recently purchased the blackest blackety black ink for £22 for a 55ml bottle.  Paid the same amout for shipping.  But the ink only cost £22!   🤪

[inkstainedruth]

I keep looking at some inexpensive but fun pens on the Bay of Evil, but the seller is in the UK and shipping to the US would basically double the price....  And then I'd have to figure out what converter would fit (I'm guessing International Standard, but not 100% sure) and that would add even MORE to the cost....  (I keep hoping that I'm not the only person looking and that the seller will make a discounted offer -- although that would mean that the shipping would cost MORE than the pens... ).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[TitoThePencilPimp]

2 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

 

I recently purchased the blackest blackety black ink for £22 for a 55ml bottle.  Paid the same amout for shipping.  But the ink only cost £22!   🤪

please tell! im looking to expand on black inks. so far, have only used 5.

[txomsy]

4 hours ago, ksx4system said:

Could you please elaborate? How old is your bottle of Koh-i-Noor Document Blue? Thanks in advance.

It's not the ink in the bottle, so far. The air-ink interface is pretty much the same all around, so I would expect O2 exchange to be somewhat constant in the bottle

 

I do find the hue changes when the ink is in the pen. I sometimes take lots of notes and do not see it, but at other points I may keep a load (a converter or a refilled cartridge) in the pen for weeks or months. I do also tend to keep the pens in either a backpack or a pocket. I suppose as I use it, the tiny bubbles of air go through the ink and the rattling in the backpack or the pocket results in ink agitation and further mixing with the  increasingly larger proportion of air.

 

Bottom line, when the ink has been in the pen for more than a week with usual agitation, it starts to darken. It is subtly progressive but evident when one looks at past notes from one or two weeks ago with the same load.

 

A second issue I have realized is that I tend to have more spills in pocket pens with Koh-I-Noor Dokument ink than with Montblanc Permanent Blue or with Rohrer & Klingner Salix or Scabiosa. I interpret that as the ink being more fluid/wet and more sensible to pen agitation. Not that I don't have spills with the other inks, but they are more frequent with KIN.

[Karmachanic]

19 minutes ago, TitoThePencilPimp said:

please tell! im looking to expand on black inks. so far, have only used 5.

 

Mitanshodo Ryuno Black.  From Mita-Club, a small shop an hour north of Tokyo

[Shams el-Din Rogers]

I am new to the hobby, but so far the inks seem wildly IN-expensive. These beautiful little bottles of liquid color cost a good deal less than designer perfumes do. I am completely besotted with the Ama-Iro, for example. It’s so pretty on multiple papers. $25 US, on average, whereas the same volume of J’adore Dior is $195. 

[ksx4system]

1 hour ago, txomsy said:

 

A second issue I have realized is that I tend to have more spills in pocket pens with Koh-I-Noor Dokument ink

 

I wanted to try it because it's dirt cheap and easily available where I live but not sure if I still want to...

 

1 hour ago, txomsy said:

but at other points I may keep a load (a converter or a refilled cartridge) in the pen for weeks or months

 

I've got pretty similar usage scenario. Thanks for elaborating and have a great day

[XYZZY]

1 hour ago, Karmachanic said:

 

Mitanshodo Ryuno Black.  From Mita-Club, a small shop an hour north of Tokyo

Never heard of them.  There's not much information about their ink found from Google searches, and even less information about their pens.

[TitoThePencilPimp]

5 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

 

Mitanshodo Ryuno Black.  From Mita-Club, a small shop an hour north of Tokyo

Was going to purchase the Black, Coffee, and Lilac. All sold out

[inkstainedruth]

Hmmm.  I've never heard of this brand before.  Now I'm wondering if this is yet another "boutique" ink that Sailor makes for specific shops....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth