Mixing different inks.... can we?

[carlos.q]

1 hour ago, Paul_LZ said:

How can you tell if the commercially available ink one is interested in is a permanent ink or not? I have some inks from different manufacturers - LAMY Crystal, Quink, Herbine, Pelikan - and no indication about that on the packaging or the bottle itself.

I would suggest you check out the ink reviews in this site, as well as others. These reviews usually comment on whether the ink is permanent or not.  

[Paul_LZ]

6 hours ago, carlos.q said:

I would suggest you check out the ink reviews in this site, as well as others. These reviews usually comment on whether the ink is permanent or not.  

Thank you

[kestrel]

15 hours ago, carlos.q said:

I would suggest you check out the ink reviews in this site, as well as others. These reviews usually comment on whether the ink is permanent or not.  

Or you can just live dangerously.  Quoth the science teacher, "Experiment with it."

[Paul_LZ]

4 hours ago, kestrel said:

Or you can just live dangerously.  Quoth the science teacher, "Experiment with it."

I doubt I would endanger my Sailors or Pelikan with such an experiment, especially that I have very little experience with the fountain pen world, pens and inks, among other things. Thank you for the advice though. I have done crazy things when I was younger, but age is a sedative in that respect, 🙂

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, Paul_LZ said:

I doubt I would endanger my Sailors or Pelikan with such an experiment, especially that I have very little experience with the fountain pen world, pens and inks, among other things.

 

I think we all meant do your experimentation/testing in a test tube or sample vial, not fill your pen directly with an unproven mix, and leave it for as long as necessary to be confident there is no precipitation or other resulting foulness that develops.

 

[txomsy]

Plus, you can always get a cheap pen to try the mix first and, after some time of normal use, make a decision. If you use a 1-4$ pen, not much is lost, and you stand the opportunity of a big win if you can find the hue you long for.

[Paul_LZ]

2 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

I think we all meant do your experimentation/testing in a test tube or sample vial, not fill your pen directly with an unproven mix, and leave it for as long as necessary to be confident there is no precipitation or other resulting foulness that develops.

 

Ok, cheers Dill

[Paul_LZ]

15 minutes ago, txomsy said:

Plus, you can always get a cheap pen to try the mix first and, after some time of normal use, make a decision. If you use a 1-4$ pen, not much is lost, and you stand the opportunity of a big win if you can find the hue you long for.

Yes, a good option too..

 

[Paul_LZ]

... and thinning the colour with, let's say, water or distilled water?... to experiment? For example, I have the Pelikan 4001 violet, a nice colour, but if I dilute it, 5 parts to 100, will this be ok?

 

Sorry for asking so many questions, but as you know, I am a new comer to this wonderful world of fountain pens and I just love it. One can always look up references and articles in blogs in the internet, but I think your opinion is as sound as any. This is why I resort to FPN

[A Smug Dill]

6 minutes ago, Paul_LZ said:

… if I dilute it, 5 parts to 100, will this be ok?

 

Nothing that is not OK with that in particular, other than making the ink flow ‘drier’ (in other words, lessen the amount of dye deposited per unit time or per unit area on the page), and perhaps render whatever biocide is in the ink (much?) less effective.

[kestrel]

15 hours ago, Paul_LZ said:

... and thinning the colour with, let's say, water or distilled water?... to experiment? For example, I have the Pelikan 4001 violet, a nice colour, but if I dilute it, 5 parts to 100, will this be ok?

 

Sorry for asking so many questions, but as you know, I am a new comer to this wonderful world of fountain pens and I just love it. One can always look up references and articles in blogs in the internet, but I think your opinion is as sound as any. This is why I resort to FPN

My favorite homemade concoction is a mix of Diamne Deep Dark Purple, Aurora Black, Slovenian Skrip Red, and distilled water or diluent.  The mix is 9/17 water or diluent and does just fine.  The diluent (basically De Atramentis ink without dye) works better than water and contains a biocide.

[txomsy]

I often dilute Baystate Blue 1:1 in tap water. I make the mix in a separate recipient, about 5-10ml in total each time. So, no reason not to. However, if your water is not good, then distilled water will be safer. If it is too "hard" (has too much mineral content) it might make deposits (you should know by looking at the white residue in the kitchen sink or in glasses after washing).

 

As @A Smug Dill correctly says, depending on dilution you may affect fluidity, color and biocide properties (whether the effect is significant or not, you can only tell by trying), but if you do it on small quantities, do not mind the flow issues -you need to try to know- and do not intend to store it for years before use, then you should be OK.

 

In general, the simplest advice (from my point of view) is to make a search on FPN for ink acidity values (there have been published several tables) and to remember that opposite charge compounds may precipitate.

 

Quick and trivialized simple physics/chemistry reminder:

 

Opposite charge solutes tend to attract, form ionic bonds leading to salts, and -if concentration is high enough- may precipitate. "High enough" means you can some times exceed precipitation concentrations by a slight amount without salts actually precipitating (a supersaturated solution). A supersaturated solution will quickly precipitate if a "nucleating" factor is added, or if a small amount of additional solute is added, or just by agitation or pressure, temperature, or other physical changes.

 

If you like cold drinks, you may have witnessed a similar effect with supercooling. Some solutions may reach temperatures slightly below their freezing point and still be liquid, until something creates the first microscopic crystal and then it all suddenly freezes instantaneously. Typically seen in beer in summer: you increase the fridge cooling power, you take a bottle of perfectly fluid beer out of the (too cool) fridge, and when you open the tap the sudden change in pressure makes it freeze instantaneously.

 

End of physics/chemistry digression.

 

That means, as a general rule, lookup the acidity, inks with acidity of the same kind can generally be mixed (acid with acid and basic with basic).

 

Inks of opposite acidity (one acid, the other basic) may or my not, if they have low concentration of dye, they may (but try first on small amounts -say an eppendorf test tube- for enough time -say a couple of days or weeks); if they are already over-saturated inks (many sheening and Noodler's inks, but not only, are), most likely they will reach supersaturation, and  generate a  lot of precipitate immediately, or on shaking, or depending on channel materials, or on filling, or when moving, whatever... and may clog your pen channels (much like hard drinking water clogs pipes in places with high mineral concentrations).

 

Note added: I carefully said some inks are 'oversaturated', not 'supersaturated'. Over- means the dye content is vary high, but may still be below saturation. Although some inks tend to leave deposits with time. But that can also be due to oxidization (like in iron-gall inks) and not to concentration.

 

That also shows a point: if two dyes can react, they may lead to a less-soluble compound that precipitates, even if none is highly saturated.

 

Which is why you should try any combination in small quantities first.

 

O, the wonders of Chemistry!

[Paul_LZ]

Great! thank you all, very helpful indeed!

[Paul_LZ]

On 10/20/2022 at 9:45 AM, txomsy said:

I often dilute Baystate Blue 1:1 in tap water. I make the mix in a separate recipient, about 5-10ml in total each time. So, no reason not to. However, if your water is not good, then distilled water will be safer. If it is too "hard" (has too much mineral content) it might make deposits (you should know by looking at the white residue in the kitchen sink or in glasses after washing).

 

As @A Smug Dill correctly says, depending on dilution you may affect fluidity, color and biocide properties (whether the effect is significant or not, you can only tell by trying), but if you do it on small quantities, do not mind the flow issues -you need to try to know- and do not intend to store it for years before use, then you should be OK.

 

In general, the simplest advice (from my point of view) is to make a search on FPN for ink acidity values (there have been published several tables) and to remember that opposite charge compounds may precipitate.

 

Quick and trivialized simple physics/chemistry reminder:

 

Opposite charge solutes tend to attract, form ionic bonds leading to salts, and -if concentration is high enough- may precipitate. "High enough" means you can some times exceed precipitation concentrations by a slight amount without salts actually precipitating (a supersaturated solution). A supersaturated solution will quickly precipitate if a "nucleating" factor is added, or if a small amount of additional solute is added, or just by agitation or pressure, temperature, or other physical changes.

 

If you like cold drinks, you may have witnessed a similar effect with supercooling. Some solutions may reach temperatures slightly below their freezing point and still be liquid, until something creates the first microscopic crystal and then it all suddenly freezes instantaneously. Typically seen in beer in summer: you increase the fridge cooling power, you take a bottle of perfectly fluid beer out of the (too cool) fridge, and when you open the tap the sudden change in pressure makes it freeze instantaneously.

 

End of physics/chemistry digression.

 

That means, as a general rule, lookup the acidity, inks with acidity of the same kind can generally be mixed (acid with acid and basic with basic).

 

Inks of opposite acidity (one acid, the other basic) may or my not, if they have low concentration of dye, they may (but try first on small amounts -say an eppendorf test tube- for enough time -say a couple of days or weeks); if they are already over-saturated inks (many sheening and Noodler's inks, but not only, are), most likely they will reach supersaturation, and  generate a  lot of precipitate immediately, or on shaking, or depending on channel materials, or on filling, or when moving, whatever... and may clog your pen channels (much like hard drinking water clogs pipes in places with high mineral concentrations).

 

Note added: I carefully said some inks are 'oversaturated', not 'supersaturated'. Over- means the dye content is vary high, but may still be below saturation. Although some inks tend to leave deposits with time. But that can also be due to oxidization (like in iron-gall inks) and not to concentration.

 

That also shows a point: if two dyes can react, they may lead to a less-soluble compound that precipitates, even if none is highly saturated.

 

Which is why you should try any combination in small quantities first.

 

O, the wonders of Chemistry!

Very helpful, thank you. Reminds me of my A level Chemistry classes when adding a base to an acid on titration, producing salt and water. 

The first thing to do is to look up the ink PH table of inks,

Thank you 👍

[Paul_LZ]

Article: How pH Monitoring Can Improve Print and Color Quality of Water-Based Ink
 

https://sensorex.com/2022/10/04/ph-monitoring-water-based-inks/amp/

[MadamBackslash]

On 10/18/2022 at 8:38 PM, A Smug Dill said:

 

I guess the answer is, it's not up to the prospective customer to decide whether the ink manufacturer makes that claim or publish information about its product(s), on account of having interest as a user alone. Some brands will make a selling point of certain inks being permanent — whether they actually use the word ‘permanent’, or alternatively claims conformance or compliance to ISO standards (11798, 12757, 14145, etc.), or use the company's own terminology such as ‘bulletproof’ — to attract interest; but you cannot expect there would be some industry-wide testing or certification framework for such, or even make it a recognised information requirement in product specifications. You're as likely, if not more so, to see mention of ‘washable’ or ‘erasable’.

 

So, to be more constructive for a change, I'd say: you tell by testing that ink yourself, to your satisfaction of whatever definition you choose to use for ‘permanent’. It's commercially available, so you can at least buy some of it to test, to use on its own or before mixing it with something else. (If you already have the ink on hand, so much the better.)

If they're claiming to comply with an ISO standard and they do not, that could lead to a big black eye reputation-wise. ISO have no penalties to levy themselves, but the marketplace sure does.