Which Sailor pen?

[essayfaire]

On 4/10/2022 at 4:46 PM, hairlame said:

You might like the MF.

That's what I was thinking.  I do find the Sailor F feels finer than the Pilot F.  The MF is just a tad bit larger, but still has the Sailor "feel".  The M I picked up is pretty fine for an M, and doesn't feel any wider to me than the MF, though it writes slightly differently.  I'm still trying to figure out why.

[Tropicana]

1 minute ago, essayfaire said:

That's what I was thinking.  I do find the Sailor F feels finer than the Pilot F.  The MF is just a tad bit larger, but still has the Sailor "feel".  The M I picked up is pretty fine for an M, and doesn't feel any wider to me than the MF, though it writes slightly differently.  I'm still trying to figure out why.

 

Hey there. 

 

Did you get a 14k M or a 21k M?

It is quite a big difference if you watch some of the videos suggested here. 

[arcfide]

17 hours ago, Olya said:

Sailor have dropped the "H" from their nibs with the latest nib re-design (i.e. the new stamping, which is also missing "1911").

 

Oh really? That's interesting. Do you have some photos of or links to the differences in the new nib stampings and codes? 

[A Smug Dill]

On 4/10/2022 at 11:29 PM, A Smug Dill said:

Given that the Sailor KOP Ebonite pens only come factory-fitted with H-M and H-B nibs …

On 4/11/2022 at 10:53 AM, arcfide said:

The KOP nibs that I have seen have all been the "standard" hardness, marked with M or B or the like (mine is a B), which are *not* the same as the H-B, H-M, …

 

Oh, you are right! I just checked my wife's Sailor Kaga maki-e Hagi-ni-cho pen — which is based on a Profit model in the KOP form factor — I bought her in 2013, and the nib's inscribed width grade is M, not H-M. I never took note of that until now!

 

17 hours ago, Olya said:

Sailor have dropped the "H" from their nibs with the latest nib re-design (i.e. the new stamping, which is also missing "1911").

 

When might that have taken place? It must have been some time later than the introduction of the ‘new’ Profit Light models into the current product line-up.

[Olya]

@A Smug Dill Yes, it was later than the introduction of those two new models!

@arcfide Here's a link to a reddit thread, showing the new nib design and you can also see that the "H" is missing on the new nib, needless to say, the new nib is on the left

 

I don't have a reddit account, but visit often to see what's new.

 

It seems that all Sailor nibs will have this design, I have seen KoPs with it as well.

 

I think the best nib design was the one before last, when the border was very simple, that was dropped 10ish years ago..

[PithyProlix]

3 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

the introduction of the ‘new’ Profit Light models into the current product line-up

 

Interesting - the Google translated version of that page states "Equipped with a 14-karat gold nib that is highly elastic and makes it easy to add inflection to the line width." for the Sailor Profit Light.

[A Smug Dill]

18 minutes ago, PithyProlix said:

Interesting - the Google translated version of that page states "Equipped with a 14-karat gold nib that is highly elastic and makes it easy to add inflection to the line width." for the Sailor Profit Light.

 

The way I read the original text of that particular sentence, the word that is translated as ‘elastic’ refers to the ability to bounce back, and not (as in a material science or engineering interpretation) latitude in yielding to pressure and bending (or ‘flexing’) without becoming permanently deformed (or ‘springing’). It's exactly that kind of significant resistance to pressure — without being a completely unyielding stiff ‘nail’ — and readiness to bounce back that give me the ability to produce line variation within the short pen strokes that make up each kana and kanji (or hanzi) character, cf. “add inflection to the line width”.

 

[arcfide]

37 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

The way I read the original text of that particular sentence, the word that is translated as ‘elastic’ refers to the ability to bounce back, and not (as in a material science or engineering interpretation) latitude in yielding to pressure and bending (or ‘flexing’) without becoming permanently deformed (or ‘springing’). It's exactly that kind of significant resistance to pressure — without being a completely unyielding stiff ‘nail’ — and readiness to bounce back that give me the ability to produce line variation within the short pen strokes that make up each kana and kanji (or hanzi) character, cf. “add inflection to the line width”.

 

 

This brings up a common translation question I have regarding what "flexibility" or elasticity means to some of the Japanese makers. For example, an interview with the Vice-president of Platinum (I think?) discussed (in English) that the shape of the Platinum nibs (specifically, I think he highlighted the flatter profile) made them somehow more flexible or the like with an eye towards writing Asian scripts more readily and cleanly, but the particular words he used didn't quite match up with how Western script writers might use those same words. And this isn't the first time I've seen this from Platinum's official sources with regards to their nib designs. I'm really wondering how they think about hard, soft, and so forth. 

[A Smug Dill]

3 minutes ago, arcfide said:

I'm really wondering how they think about hard, soft, and so forth.

 

Well, ‘soft’ would be the readiness of the nib to yield in response to pressure, without necessarily meaning that the tines will splay outwards (as opposed to bend upwards with the tines remaining close to each other). The FA nib on a Pilot Custom 912 and the SF nib on the Pilot Elabo (aka Falcon) are both ‘soft’; but the Elabo's nib is shaped specifically so that the tines resist splaying. Also, ‘soft’ doesn't mean safe to flex far without causing inelastic deformation; Pilot has stated very specifically that the Custom's FA nib is not suitable for being used with heavy pressure, whereas the Elabo's nib was designed to tolerate that.

 

Think of ‘soft’ as in a calligraphy brush's tip. Some brushes' tips will return a pointy shape briskly, and others may get all sloppy after a heavy dip against the paper's surface (with proper support underneath it), but they still count as soft. If you're using a brush of wolf hair bristles, it'll be more ‘elastic’ or (a better translation would be) bouncy, in spite of being a soft-tipped writing instrument. In any case, you wouldn't call a brush ‘hard’, irrespective of the material elasticity characteristics.

 

Writing with a pointy stick would be ‘hard’, in contrast.

 

 

[essayfaire]

15 hours ago, Tropicana said:

Did you get a 14k M or a 21k M?

14.  My MF is also 14k so they should be comparable.

[Tropicana]

6 hours ago, essayfaire said:

14.  My MF is also 14k so they should be comparable.

 

Have a look at this video.  

 

It looks like 21k is wetter than 14k in general.

And the 21k M is a big step up from 14k M. 

 

Just to qualify, I do not own any Sailor Pens.  But I'm sure there are many fine folks here who can help. 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Tropicana

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, Tropicana said:

But I'm sure there are many fine folks here who can help.

 

But help with what exactly? I believe your initial questions about the Sailor KOP nibs have been answered, and not only by myself. If, on the other hand, you were referring to this:

 

On 4/11/2022 at 8:29 PM, Tropicana said:

I'm just looking for a grail pen ^①(800-1000USD) that is ^②generally well regarded ^③without going into custom nibs or expensive/ exotic material. 

 

There are so many pens in the market that fit criteria ①, ② and ③. However, fellow enthusiasts — especially seasoned ones — cannot (and, in my opinion, ought not try to) tell you what is your personal ‘grail pen’, or even what will count as one if you expect that you will/can have multiple ‘grail pens’, either as next steps up serially, or gotta-catch-'em-all, in pursuit of some sort of ultimate satisfaction in the fountain pen hobby. If everyone tried, then all you get is dozens or even hundreds of suggestions of what are, or were, personal ‘grail pens’ of different individuals.

 

It is an appealing idea that someone else will share your values, tastes, and preferences almost entirely but, unlike you, has already completed the ‘journey’ and all the experience and knowledge that comes with it, so as to be able, ready and willing to tell you how to go straight to the destination, and spare you all the time, effort and money you'd otherwise have to spend in experimentation and missteps along the way. Kinda like taking advice from your future self, who you'd expect to be kind to you. But that's not going to happen, andI think it's unrealistic to expect someone else to aptly step into that role for you.

 

No matter how many videos your watch, how many reviews you read, how many writing samples with different pens and nibs we show you, in all likelihood you'll still come to discover some wish-I-had-known information about the pens in the market — or even what you like or dislike in the use of fountain pens and inks — after you've made a decision, spent the money, and used that expensive purchase for a while. There is no ‘last pen’, other than simply deciding what you have is enough, whatever else you may later come to discover and/or as new pens come onto the scene, and knowingly forgoing the pursuit of ‘more‘ or ‘better’ even when you can see a higher level of satisfaction is not a mere possibility.

 

[Tropicana]

40 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

But help with what exactly? I believe your initial questions about the Sailor KOP nibs have been answered, and not only by myself. If, on the other hand, you were referring to this:

 

Well, help with whatever questions that may he have next. 

 

Thanks for your lengthy response and advice but I hope that how I choose to approach this interest/ hobby is really my concern. 

 

I will eventually get to where I want the way I want to.  

 

Cheers. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Tropicana

[A Smug Dill]

53 minutes ago, Tropicana said:

Thanks for your lengthy response and advice but I hope that how I choose to approach this interest/ hobby is really my concern. 

 

It is, and I hope that when you ask a specific product question, either someone will have the knowledge or experience to answer that with objectivity and precision, or stay mum until you ask the next one that they can answer.

 

55 minutes ago, Tropicana said:

I will eventually get to where I want the way I want to.

 

Good luck, and I hope you learn much along the way, and enjoy the journey all in all in spite of things you wouldn't do again in retrospect.

 

[Tropicana]

6 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

It is, and I hope that when you ask a specific product question, either someone will have the knowledge or experience to answer that with objectivity and precision, or stay mum until you ask the next one that they can answer.

 

 

Good luck, and I hope you learn much along the way, and enjoy the journey all in all in spite of things you wouldn't do again in retrospect.

 

 

Thanks mate. 

 

And I hope that you will be more inclusive and tolerant towards enthusiast who has just recently picked up this interest.

 

Some times it is difficult to even understand what we want at the beginning of the journey, let alone being able to frame a question objectively that would incite a specific/ accurate response. Ambiguous questions are part of the discovery process. 

 

Nonetheless with your wealth of experience, we are all looking to your guidance, where neceesary and applicable. 

 

Cheers. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Tropicana

[A Smug Dill]

2 minutes ago, Tropicana said:

Some times it is difficult to even understand what we want at the beginning of the journey,

 

Oh, I know. That's (a large part of) how I ended up with hundreds of fountain pens and hundreds of retail bottles of ink, even though I can only write with so many; most just spend the majority of their time ‘resting’ in a pen storage box, pen folder, chest or drawer full of inks, etc.

[hairlame]

17 hours ago, Tropicana said:

 

Have a look at this video.  

 

It looks like 21k is wetter than 14k in general.

And the 21k M is a big step up from 14k M. 

 

Just to qualify, I do not own any Sailor Pens.  But I'm sure there are many fine folks here who can help. 

 

 

 

This is a really nice video, thanks for posting!

 

I'm skeptical of any systematic difference between the 14k and 21k line widths.  I think any differences shown in the video could have more to do with random variation within a nib grade due to small differences in the shape of the tipping or the width of the nib slit from nib to nib.  

 

For example, at 29:30 of the video, there's a full view of all the lines.  For the MF comparison, it looks like the 14k MF runs wider than the 21k MF. But for the  M comparison, it looks like the 14k M runs narrower than the 21k M. 

 

Its possible that the 21k runs wetter than the 14k, but perhaps that would be due more to the larger feed of the 21k, which would hold more ink?  

 

One thing I like about Sailor nibs is that they are easy to adjust if you're comfortable doing so.  If you have access to one, I'd also recommend sending it off to a nib master to get it tuned exactly the way you like it.  I would be more confident doing that than potentially relying on a difference between the 14k and 21k nibs to get what you want.

 

Regardless of the above, its a fun journey to explore Sailor nibs... I ended up not being able to stop at just one!

[arcfide]

On 4/13/2022 at 11:30 AM, hairlame said:

I'm skeptical of any systematic difference between the 14k and 21k line widths.  I think any differences shown in the video could have more to do with random variation within a nib grade due to small differences in the shape of the tipping or the width of the nib slit from nib to nib.  

 

I agree that there's likely significant potential for overlap in the actual tolerances of the nib grinds between the two pens. On the other hand, I think that the reports are that the 21K nib is at least a little bit springier than the 14K, and it does have a slightly larger feed. I suspect that both of these are more likely to contribute to a general tendency towards being slightly more wet for some people. 

 

Although, all that being said, I'm not sure that Sailor nibs in general have a reputation for being exceptionally wet in the first place. Most Japanese pens that I have tried have had a systematically controlled ink flow compared to other options. They were not dry as such, but they definitely weren't gushers in the way that some other pens could be. 

[Karmachanic]

On 4/10/2022 at 3:33 PM, Azulcaneta said:

is there a huge difference between PMMA and ebonyite?

 

In my opinion there is a definite palpable difference in hand.  I have urushi, plain polished and matte.

[essayfaire]

9 hours ago, arcfide said:

I'm not sure that Sailor nibs in general have a reputation for being exceptionally wet in the first place

That's certainly been my experience.  Sailors are my Goldilocks wetness - Platinums can be too dry, Pelikans too wet!  I would think in general a higher K alloy would have more spring/bend than a lower K alloy, just based on the malleability of gold.