Which Sailor pen?

[Tropicana]

Dear friends, 

 

I am new to Fountain Pen and would like to seek your help to recommend a Sailor pen for me to try out the Sailor nib feel. 

Currently, I have a Pilot 92 (F) and a Pilot 912 (FA) and I like them both. 

I also have a Muji Pen (Jowo Fine) which started me off in this hobby. 

I use it mainly to scribble and my kids some times use it to sketch/ draw. 

 

As my handwriting is small, I find the Jowo F nib a little too broad for my liking. 
A Pilot 92 fine is just about right as I use it on cheap copy paper... 70-80gsm.  This is my workhorse pen. 

I use the Pilot 912 FA with better paper, HP 32lb paper, which is great.  

 

I intend to get a Pilot Custom Urushi (FM) or Sailor 1911 KOP Ebonite (?). 

But before I make the jump into "grail" territory, i am thinking of trying out an intermediate Sailor pen first. 

 

I understand that Sailor Fine is slightly finer than Pilot Fine? I think Pilot Fine is as far as I would go. 

Also saw a video (Yoseka Stationery) that Sailor 21k M nib is a very big step up (and wetter) from the 14K M, it looks broader than my Jowo F nib. 

Don't seem like the case when I compared  Sailor 14k M vs Sailor 21k M on Goulet's Nib nook. 

 

So, my preference is > Pilot Fine but < Jowo F. 

If I may possibly be considering the Sailor KOP, I should try out a Sailor 21k nib?  But which? F, MF or M? 

Also, which model would encapsulate the Sailor nib feel?

Your help would really be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Edited April 10, 2022 by Tropicana

[Azulcaneta]

The sailor nibs are great. I dont think the 21k vs 18k is going to be a huge deal for you to the negative. Thus, i would first think about the body. Kop is modeled after MB 149. If you got to a MB store and hold the pen you will know if you want that size. If too big, then 1911 / pro gear might be better. What is your budget? Then in terms of next decision its material. Urushi vs the ebonite etc. 

 

You can spend a few hundred or a few thousand; broad range. In terms of Nib, the Sailor fine is equivalent to EF European. A sailor medium is sort of close to european fine. What are you using pen for? Note taking or long form?

[Tropicana]

31 minutes ago, Azulcaneta said:

The sailor nibs are great. I dont think the 21k vs 18k is going to be a huge deal for you to the negative. Thus, i would first think about the body. Kop is modeled after MB 149. If you got to a MB store and hold the pen you will know if you want that size. If too big, then 1911 / pro gear might be better. What is your budget? Then in terms of next decision its material. Urushi vs the ebonite etc. 

 

You can spend a few hundred or a few thousand; broad range. In terms of Nib, the Sailor fine is equivalent to EF European. A sailor medium is sort of close to european fine. What are you using pen for? Note taking or long form?

 

Thanks for your response. 

 

Some departmental store where i live carries MB, but do not have fountain pens.  Odd. 

I'm looking primarily at Sailor/ Pilot because they are easier/ cheaper to buy from Japan. 

I held a Visconti HS Bronze Age and I love the size.  I even considered buying the EF but the risk associated with QC is really a concern, especially if i'm buying online/ overseas. 

 

After I held that pen, warm to the touch, I am now keen on getting an ebonite pen.  Which is why I am looking at a KOP ebonite or Pilot Custom Urushi (although the grip is made from Resin).  My budget is about 800USD.  I'm not very particular about the material, though I am looking for a great writer, a great nib in particular.  I was watching figboot on pen and both KOP and Pilot Custom Urushi are highly regarded. 

 

But before I make that jump, I would like to try a moderately priced Sailor pen first (200 - 250 USD), just wondering which to get.  Or should I just make the leap...? And save myself some money.  

This would be a lot easier if i could test both out.. but don't think that is going to be possible. 

[A Smug Dill]

2 hours ago, Tropicana said:

If I may possibly be considering the Sailor KOP, I should try out a Sailor 21k nib?

 

The 21K gold nibs in the King Of Pen models as ‘extra large’ sized physically, in Sailor’s nomenclature, while the 21K gold nibs in the Profit (aka 1911 Large) are ‘large’ sized, and the (special, not base-model) 21K gold nibs in the Profit Standard (aka 1911 Standard) are ‘medium’ sized. Just as there may be differences between the feel, as well as the output line widths, of the Pilot 14K gold nibs of different physical sizes (i.e. #5 for the Custom 74, #10 for the Custom 742, #15 for the Custom 743, #30 for the Custom Urushi) for the Custom product line, even if they all share the same nib width grade (e.g. F), there may be difference between those Sailor 21K gold nibs of different sizes. Furthermore, all else being equal, a ruthenium finish on a nib may influence the ink flow (in my experience, black-coloured gold nibs tend to write more dryly, and thus put down finer lines than yellow-coloured gold nibs of the same type, alloy composition, physical size, and width grade).

 

In short, don’t expect anything other than an ‘extra large’ sized Sailor 21K gold H-F nib to inform you exactly what to expect of such a nib, although you can probably get a close approximation.

 

2 hours ago, Tropicana said:

But which? F, MF or M?

 

Given that the Sailor KOP Ebonite pens only come factory-fitted with H-M and H-B nibs (unless you want a Naginata Togi nib on one), I don’t know why you would be considering the F and MF nibs in the smaller ‘large’ size to test the waters.

[Tropicana]

14 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

The 21K gold nibs in the King Of Pen models as ‘extra large’ sized physically, in Sailor’s nomenclature, while the 21K gold nibs in the Profit (aka 1911 Large) are ‘large’ sized, and the (special, not base-model) 21K gold nibs in the Profit Standard (aka 1911 Standard) are ‘medium’ sized. Just as there may be differences between the feel, as well as the output line widths, of the Pilot 14K gold nibs of different physical sizes (i.e. #5 for the Custom 74, #10 for the Custom 742, #15 for the Custom 743, #30 for the Custom Urushi) for the Custom product line, even if they all share the same nib width grade (e.g. F), there may be difference between those Sailor 21K gold nibs of different sizes. Furthermore, all else being equal, a ruthenium finish on a nib may influence the ink flow (in my experience, black-coloured gold nibs tend to write more dryly, and thus put down finer lines than yellow-coloured gold nibs of the same type, alloy composition, physical size, and width grade).

 

In short, don’t expect anything other than an ‘extra large’ sized Sailor 21K gold H-F nib to inform you exactly what to expect of such a nib, although you can probably get a close approximation.

 

 

Given that the Sailor KOP Ebonite pens only come factory-fitted with H-M and H-B nibs (unless you want a Naginata Togi nib on one), I don’t know why you would be considering the F and MF nibs in the smaller ‘large’ size to test the waters.

 

Thank you for your response. 
I didn't even realize that there's no F for the entire KOP series. 🤣

That narrows it down then... 

[Azulcaneta]

@A Smug Dillalso I think sailors have different body material. 
 

for example the one I just bought is 

REI I

 

the main difference between Sailor Fountain Pen - 'Rei' 2nd Series - Ishikawa Kaga-nuri (2022) (Ishikawa Kaga-nuri) and the Sailor Fountain Pen - Dentō Urushigei Rei - Wajima Tamenuri (Wajime Tamenuri) is that the Ishikawa Kaga-nuri was made by lacquer artist Isana Kobayashi, while the Wajime Tamenuri was made by Wajima lacquer artist Yuchi Sumima. 

 

Other striking differences is that the body material of the Ishikawa Kaga-nuri is ebony, while the Wajime Tamenuri is made of PMMA Resin, which would also explain the price differences of $1,280.99 and $600.99 for the Ishikawa Kaga-nuri and the Wajime Tamenuri, respectively.

 

"Design" wise, the Ishikawa Kaga-nuri features a rich vermillion top coat with black streaks from the black lacquer undercoat, whilst the Wajime Tamenuri is mainly rich vermillion. 
 

is there a huge difference between PMMA and ebony?

 

[A Smug Dill]

6 minutes ago, Azulcaneta said:

is there a huge difference between PMMA and ebony?

 

I wouldn't know. Some of the pens you guys are interested in and/or have bought are above my pay grade.

[hairlame]

10 hours ago, Tropicana said:

 

 

So, my preference is > Pilot Fine but < Jowo F. 

If I may possibly be considering the Sailor KOP, I should try out a Sailor 21k nib?  But which? F, MF or M? 

Also, which model would encapsulate the Sailor nib feel?

Your help would really be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

 

You might like the MF.  For reference, here's a compilation of nib line widths for different nib grades from various manufacturers from John Mottishaw:  https://www.nibs.com/content/nib-tipping-sizes.  According to this resource, the Jowo F and Sailor MF are both 0.4 mm wide. The Sailor F and Pilot F are both 0.3 mm.  These are pretty accurate, from my experience.  There is some difference associated with the kind of ink used. Inks from Sailor and Pilot seem to be wetter and more lubricated than inks from Lamy and Pelikan - and produce wider lines for the same nib grade.  I'm pretty happy with the performance of Sailor and Pilot inks in Sailor EF, F and MF nibs.  In my opinion, there's a level of precision you get with Sailor nibs that's hard to beat. 

 

In my experience, the Sailor M nib definitely produces a substantially thicker line than the F nib, closer to Jowo M.  I also think that Pilot nibs tend to be a bit more springy than the Sailor nibs, which can increase the amount of ink put on the page, giving slightly wider lines.

Here's nice video from goldspot pens that compares all the Sailor nib widths along with some other pens for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrVnEC06UA8. The video also shows close-ups of the nibs, so you can see how the tipping shape differs with nib size.  

 

-h

 

[arcfide]

It's also worth noting that Sailor actually has different "hardness" grades for their nibs. The KOP nibs that I have seen have all been the "standard" hardness, marked with M or B or the like (mine is a B), which are *not* the same as the H-B, H-M, and other such nibs, which are, to my knowledge, explicitly considered "hard" nibs. That is, the 21K nibs in the smaller sizes are technically different nib ratings, with most of them getting the "hard" prefix to their nib size. On the other hand, all of the KOP nibs I have seen in their standard grinds have been whatever Sailor wants to call "not hard". In my experience, this means that the KOP nibs have a distinct amount of bounce to them which is likely not present in the smaller Sailor nibs. I would expect this to encourage them to practically write just a little bit wetter and maybe just a little bit broader than a harder counterpart.

 

This means, to my mind, that it will be possible to get a feel for the grind and tipping size with a smaller, cheaper pen, but that you will not be able to get a good sense of the feel of the nib as a whole, because the flexibility of the nib will be quite different. 

[Tropicana]

4 hours ago, hairlame said:

 

You might like the MF.  For reference, here's a compilation of nib line widths for different nib grades from various manufacturers from John Mottishaw:  https://www.nibs.com/content/nib-tipping-sizes.  According to this resource, the Jowo F and Sailor MF are both 0.4 mm wide. The Sailor F and Pilot F are both 0.3 mm.  These are pretty accurate, from my experience.  There is some difference associated with the kind of ink used. Inks from Sailor and Pilot seem to be wetter and more lubricated than inks from Lamy and Pelikan - and produce wider lines for the same nib grade.  I'm pretty happy with the performance of Sailor and Pilot inks in Sailor EF, F and MF nibs.  In my opinion, there's a level of precision you get with Sailor nibs that's hard to beat. 

 

In my experience, the Sailor M nib definitely produces a substantially thicker line than the F nib, closer to Jowo M.  I also think that Pilot nibs tend to be a bit more springy than the Sailor nibs, which can increase the amount of ink put on the page, giving slightly wider lines.

Here's nice video from goldspot pens that compares all the Sailor nib widths along with some other pens for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrVnEC06UA8. The video also shows close-ups of the nibs, so you can see how the tipping shape differs with nib size.  

 

-h

 

 

Thanks -h for your response. 

 

Great nib chart.  I suppose MF is the best bet for my case. 

From the video, it seems like the 21k is wetter than 14k, possibly due to the added bounce?
Probably something to consider as I do write on low quality paper at times. 

 

I use Iroshizuku ink, it is relatively well priced where I am.  Sailor inks are unfortunately not.  No complains so far. 

 

 

28 minutes ago, arcfide said:

It's also worth noting that Sailor actually has different "hardness" grades for their nibs. The KOP nibs that I have seen have all been the "standard" hardness, marked with M or B or the like (mine is a B), which are *not* the same as the H-B, H-M, and other such nibs, which are, to my knowledge, explicitly considered "hard" nibs. That is, the 21K nibs in the smaller sizes are technically different nib ratings, with most of them getting the "hard" prefix to their nib size. On the other hand, all of the KOP nibs I have seen in their standard grinds have been whatever Sailor wants to call "not hard". In my experience, this means that the KOP nibs have a distinct amount of bounce to them which is likely not present in the smaller Sailor nibs. I would expect this to encourage them to practically write just a little bit wetter and maybe just a little bit broader than a harder counterpart.

 

This means, to my mind, that it will be possible to get a feel for the grind and tipping size with a smaller, cheaper pen, but that you will not be able to get a good sense of the feel of the nib as a whole, because the flexibility of the nib will be quite different. 

 

 

Thanks arcfide.  This is really insightful. 

 

I'll go and have a look at the Pilot Custom Urushi over the weekend.  KOP in M is probably too broad for me based on all the comments gathered here. 

 

At the same time, i do not mind getting a Sailor F or MF to try.  

I had my eyes on the 1911L black luster, i believe it comes only in F/M/B and not MF.

Would be nice to add a cigar shaped pen to my miniscule three pen collection. 

Only reservation i had is the metallic grip section.  It is humid where i live.  Sweat and oil is going to make it slippery and also, i do not like the cold touch when i first picked it up.  But it is really beautiful especially in the black trim. 

 

Once again, many thanks to those who have responded. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Tropicana

[A Smug Dill]

33 minutes ago, Tropicana said:

I had my eyes on the 1911L black luster, i believe it comes only in F/M/B and not MF.

 

The options are actually EF, F, and M nibs only. https://en.sailor.co.jp/product/11-3048/

[Tropicana]

43 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

The options are actually EF, F, and M nibs only. https://en.sailor.co.jp/product/11-3048/

 

Thanks mate. Will likely consider F then.
Cheers.  

[langere]

Why get a pen with a metal grip section?  There are lots of 1911L models without the metal grips.

 

Erick

[Tropicana]

30 minutes ago, langere said:

Why get a pen with a metal grip section?  There are lots of 1911L models without the metal grips.

 

Erick

 

Hi Erick, 

 

I am attracted to the blacked out trim on the black luster and the cigar shape.  But yes you are right, plenty of 1911 L to choose from. 

[arcfide]

3 hours ago, Tropicana said:

I'll go and have a look at the Pilot Custom Urushi over the weekend.  KOP in M is probably too broad for me based on all the comments gathered here. 

 

If you're into the larger sized pen in Japanese fashion and like a fine nib, you may want to also consider what Platinum/Nakaya have to offer in that range. They are distinctly different from Pilot and Sailor, so they might not be up your alley, but they do offer a wider range of grinds/tipping sizes in some of their larger Urushi pens. One of the reasons I went for Nakaya pens was that I could get the nib that I wanted much more easily in a "larger" pen, after I had determined that the KOP B nib wasn't broad enough for me. On the other hand, if you like a lot of cushy bounce in your nibs, Platinum/Nakaya might not be to your taste. 

[A Smug Dill]

2 hours ago, Tropicana said:

Will likely consider F then.

• https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/343508-q-i-use-western-fine-nibs-what-is-the-japanese-equivalent/?do=findComment&comment=4173821
• https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/343508-q-i-use-western-fine-nibs-what-is-the-japanese-equivalent/?do=findComment&comment=4174715

 

1 minute ago, arcfide said:

One of the reasons I went for Nakaya pens was that I could get the nib that I wanted much more easily in a "larger" pen, after I had determined that the KOP B nib wasn't broad enough for me.

 

What about the ‘extra-large’ sized 21K gold Naginata Togi B nib for the Sailor King Of Pen?

[arcfide]

Also, if you're in love with the bouncy, extra large look and feel of a Sailor pen, I wouldn't hesitate at all to pick one up and ask someone who is experienced in working with Sailor nibs to do a regrind down to the size you want. I think at least one or two experienced nibmeisters working for the general public have previously worked closely with or for Sailor. If you really like the feel of the Sailor nib, it's going to be almost impossible, IMO, to replicate that feel anywhere else from a stock nib. 

[arcfide]

3 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

What about the ‘extra-large’ sized 21K gold Naginata Togi B nib for the Sailor King Of Pen?

 

I absolutely love that pen and the nib. I *really* want one. Unfortunately, I know that I probably won't use it at the moment, I am not really trying to purchase pens that I am just going to collect but generally not use. I have a few in that category, including the NT-B, but also the Platinum Procyon, and a few others. They are novel enough to me that I want them, but they aren't the right grind for my normal writing so I can't justify it at the moment to myself. 

 

The main issue with the NT-B for me, right now, is the architect grind. That makes it extremely desirable as a tool for me to do Asian calligraphy, but I don't do enough of that right now, and I'm frankly a poor student in that class. My normal writing at the moment tends very much in the Italic space, so my daily writers are Music nibs and Broad stubs that are as sharp as I can get them (I had a formal italic done on the Nakaya I picked up recently). When people want me to write something nice in my "pretty handwriting", that generally means they want it in Spencerian, and I have a Namiki Falcon and a MB 149 Calligraphy for those purposes. I haven't been able to fit a NT-B into my lineup just yet, though perhaps if I found the time to start improving my ability to write Asian scripts I could be convinced. 

[Tropicana]

5 hours ago, arcfide said:

 

If you're into the larger sized pen in Japanese fashion and like a fine nib, you may want to also consider what Platinum/Nakaya have to offer in that range. They are distinctly different from Pilot and Sailor, so they might not be up your alley, but they do offer a wider range of grinds/tipping sizes in some of their larger Urushi pens. One of the reasons I went for Nakaya pens was that I could get the nib that I wanted much more easily in a "larger" pen, after I had determined that the KOP B nib wasn't broad enough for me. On the other hand, if you like a lot of cushy bounce in your nibs, Platinum/Nakaya might not be to your taste. 

 

Thank you for your suggestions. 

 

I'm very new to fountain pen.  Honestly I don't think I'm that discerning when it comes to feel of nibs at this point.  But I also would like to avoid spending too much in the pursuit of a pen that will suit me perfectly.  I've been down that road with hifi and headphones.... 

 

I'm just looking for a grail pen (800-1000USD) that is generally well regarded without going into custom nibs or expensive/ exotic material. 

 

I would like to believe Pilot Custom Urushi FM will be my last pen... then again.. who knows.. it is so much fun discovering.  

 

Only thing is that this is really niche and non of the retailers here would let customers try. 

[Olya]

Sailor have dropped the "H" from their nibs with the latest nib re-design (i.e. the new stamping, which is also missing "1911").