comparison COMPARISON: Platinum Curidas vs Lanbitou 3088

[donnweinberg]

stephanos:  Here are two views of the Curidas and 3088 nibs, one from the top and one from one side.  You be the judge.

 

 

[Jamerelbe]

Just to add my 2c worth, the nib on my 3088 wrote pretty smoothly out of the box, even though it's an EF.  Given the low price of these pens, it might be worth buying one to try the swap!

[garyc]

On 12/15/2021 at 10:15 PM, Jamerelbe said:

Just to add my 2c worth, the nib on my 3088 wrote pretty smoothly out of the box, even though it's an EF.  Given the low price of these pens, it might be worth buying one to try the swap!

For what it’s worth, I also found the nib on my 3088 to be to my liking - like a fine stub which suited my writing style. I also suffered the same drying out problems, but found it a minor inconvenience given it wrote so well (once it got going). The ergonomics are not so good - the clip in particular is a bit naff (think I may well remove it), the 2 nodules on the underside are irritating and the all plastic construction is pretty cheap (how long before it breaks). For this reason and from the other comments here I have concluded that the Curidas wasn’t really worth the extra (I already own the Lamy Dialog and a Pilot VP and was considering getting one).

[Calabria]

I bought the blue Curidas at the beginning of 2021 and have had it consistently inked with Platinum blue-black cartridges since then. The M nib is slightly stubbish, which is a joy, and I’ve had no drying issues even though I use the pen infrequently when I’m out and about.
 

The Curidas has received mixed reviews but it was one of my best purchases this year. It’s playful, innovative, entirely functional.

 

Arguments over buying Chinese knock-offs tend to get emotional. Maybe that’s how it should be. Knock-offs violate international patent laws and could be considered black market if China hadn’t set itself above international law. On top of that, knock offs undermine the viability of heritage fountain pen makers such as Platinum who spend a considerable amount of money developing and producing original designs. 
 

My comparison would be playful and innovative (Curidas) vs. deceptive and imitative (“3088”). In my pen hobby, the Curidas has the values I go for.

[Jamerelbe]

15 minutes ago, Calabria said:

I bought the blue Curidas at the beginning of 2021 and have had it consistently inked with Platinum blue-black cartridges since then. The M nib is slightly stubbish, which is a joy, and I’ve had no drying issues even though I use the pen infrequently when I’m out and about.
 

The Curidas has received mixed reviews but it was one of my best purchases this year. It’s playful, innovative, entirely functional.

 

Arguments over buying Chinese knock-offs tend to get emotional. Maybe that’s how it should be. Knock-offs violate international patent laws and could be considered black market if China hadn’t set itself above international law. On top of that, knock offs undermine the viability of heritage fountain pen makers such as Platinum who spend a considerable amount of money developing and producing original designs. 
 

My comparison would be playful and innovative (Curidas) vs. deceptive and imitative (“3088”). In my pen hobby, the Curidas has the values I go for.

 

Thanks @Calabria, the 3088 hasn't put me off buying a Curidas - but I'll probably hold off for a *little* bit longer.  I have a Dialog cc under the Christmas tree (actually it's stuck in a drawer, but my better half has forbidden me from opening it before Christmas!).  Given the cost of that purchase, I suspect it'll be another several months before I buy the next retractable pen...

 

[A Smug Dill]

3 hours ago, Calabria said:

Knock-offs violate international patent laws

 

International, as in a uniform body of laws upheld and enforceable by cross-jurisdictional authority arising from some treaty between member nations?

 

3 hours ago, Calabria said:

and could be considered black market

 

If local or national laws where one resides prohibits the import and sale of such products, then they would indeed be contraband sold on the black market, as far as one is concerned; but the production of such in their country (or countries) of origin is not ‘black market’. In some countries it's legal to grow and sell (for example) marijuana, and there is neither cause nor effect in decrying such activity elsewhere, even when it may be illegal to import or possess such where one resides.

 

3 hours ago, Calabria said:

if China hadn’t set itself above international law.

 

Was China ever voluntarily subject, by treaty or agreement, to external authority with regard to intellectual property laws that are not the country's own?

 

3 hours ago, Calabria said:

On top of that, knock offs undermine the viability of heritage fountain pen makers such as Platinum who spend a considerable amount of money developing and producing original designs. 

 

In my opinion that's what laws, regulations, and jurisdiction are about — it sets the boundaries of what parties who don't share the same values (and have no obligation to do so) can legitimately do to selfishly, callously, or even vindictively benefit themselves, at the expense of others as the case may be. Values that are not shared need not be ‘respected’; undermining others' dearly held values, or perhaps even turning adherence to such as distinct disadvantage for subscribers to such, within the rules of the arena is (reasonable) gameplay in a dog-eat-dog market or world. Furthermore, bystanders (such as some consumers) with no inherent investment or allegiance, and who also aren't bound by those values, may stand to benefit from the spoils or scraps out of such competition.

 

There is no inherent or universal agreement for everyone to cooperate for (what some would see as) a ‘better’ shared world, and/or avoid affront and conflict wherever possible. Laws tell us where, and how hard, we can thwack each other in what is considered a civilised manner, never mind human emotions, or who falls or perishes fighting each other.

[MuddyWaters]

Exactly smug, but this is not a legal argument. I can't dispute the Chinese maker's legal ability to make counterfeit pens in its own country, nor of individuals in the rest of the world from importing them over eBay. It is a moral one. And usually it takes quite some time for governments to pass laws that can outlaw immoral or otherwise illegal conduct (eg. Tax evasion loopholes especially for Internet companies). Fountain pens are much too niche for governments to address them directly, and governments have not solved the legal and economic issues that relate to global trade in general anyway, so all the more reason to say this isn't a legal problem. 

[A Smug Dill]

11 hours ago, MuddyWaters said:

Exactly smug, but this is not a legal argument.

 

I'm struggling to see how an appeal to international patent laws and international law (by @Calabria above), to which I framed my earlier reply, is not a legal argument. Whether China — as an sovereign state whose politics and governing philosophy may or may not be something one agrees with personally and/or morally — ought to be subject to laws (cf. “set itself above international law”) made elsewhere by a foreign entity who have no authority whatsoever over China, is also a legal argument (about jurisdiction, and enforceability of laws).

 

11 hours ago, MuddyWaters said:

I can't dispute the Chinese maker's legal ability to make counterfeit pens in its own country, nor of individuals in the rest of the world from importing them over eBay. It is a moral one.

 

If you disagree with China's (or some other entity's) position on moral grounds, that has to be perfectly fine by anyone else (including but not limited to me); you're not imposing on others, and they should not be imposing (and should not be able to impose) on you. So you make decisions about whether or not to personally import, buy, or use such pens, of which the production is legal but construed as undermining somebody else's intellectual property rights (of jurisdictionally limited scope) morally. All your peers and equals in the fountain pen user community — whether they hail from China, Japan, Russia, Switzerland, or the United States — also get to make the same type of personal decisions; and, if this is not a legal argument, then isn't it wonderful that the figures (number of willing buyers globally and/or within a given region, number of units sold, revenue collected by the Chinese sellers and manufacturers, profit made, etc.) speak for themselves to those who care about what others think? Even if you find yourself demonstrably in the minority in terms of moral position, you can still hold on to it, while seeing how the rest of the loosely collective ‘us’ thinks/feels, since (it “is not a legal argument”) either the majority in numbers, or sheer power of dollars, would then reflect how things should be when behaviour is not bound by common laws and regulations. Each person can then decide whether to shift his/her position seeing how the rest behaves, either to realign with the majority within a scope not ring-fenced by shared moral values, or become more entrenched in one's minority position as pushback.

 

That, to me, is the apolitical way of approaching it. Moral values are a personal matter; and, unless one is in a position of lawmaker or being actively involved in politics, one's moral compass should be understood as having no part in setting policy or rules that apply to or constrain anybody else.

 

And…

 

Wouldn't it be such a great moral triumph if the Chinese and whoever else keeps churning out these “knock-offs” of adequate quality and offered at a tiny fraction of the “original” product from which they allegedly and unabashedly copied to flood the market, only to be rejected by personal choice (as opposed to applicable law with regard to import, sale and/or possession locally) by the majority of prospective buyers in such manufacturers' target market(s)? Hell, wouldn't it be such a sight if the average Chinese consumer decide to reject cheap Chinese “knock-offs” in deference to German and Japanese intellectual property right owners, to whom they owe no obligation or allegiance, and who they don't care about politically, and in whose companies they have no financial stake?

 

Then that would be a purely moral decision (or “argument”) that resonates with the fountain pen user community at large.

[JosephKing]

13 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

I'm struggling to see how an appeal to international patent laws and international law (by @Calabria above), to which I framed my earlier reply, is not a legal argument. Whether China — as an sovereign state whose politics and governing philosophy may or may not be something one agrees with personally and/or morally — ought to be subject to laws (cf. “set itself above international law”) made elsewhere by a foreign entity who have no authority whatsoever over China, is also a legal argument (about jurisdiction, and enforceability of laws).

It should be illegal for anyone in a country which recognizes an international patent to buy/import/sell a product that violates said international patent.

Having said that, there is a "deeper moral issue" here... the spirit of invention.
For any invention that does not immediately save human lives, the spirit of invention should guide the actions of those who would invent, regardless of law, economics, or the actions of the masses.  There is a very primitive experience to the act of dedicating oneself to solving a problem in a novel way, that is universal to all who undertake the way.  That primitive experience should be respected and acknowledged by the dedicated, to encourage them to remain dedicated; i.e. "I know how hard it is to come up with novel solutions, so I would not outright copy another's novel solution".

[TSherbs]

On 12/12/2021 at 1:03 AM, Jamerelbe said:

 

Good to hear you haven't had the ink dryout problems I did - I managed to fix mine (temporarily) by smearing a little silicone grease around the trapdoor of my Lanbitou, but sadly the improvement in the seal wasn't lasting. 

 

Most of the 'early adopters' of the Lanbitou on online forums seem to report similar experiences to mine - I wonder whether Lanbitou have improved their QC over time (that does happen!), or whether you've just gotten lucky with the one pen you've inked up.  Will be interested to hear whether you have similarly good experiences when you ink up others of your 3088's!

 

This, to me, is one of the biggest (potential) deal-breakers when it comes to click-type fountain pens: if the trapdoor doesn't seal tight shut to prevent nib dryout and/or ink evaporation, it's going to be useful to me.  My Pilot Capless / Vanishing Points have been good for this - my Lanbitou 3088, not so much...

My recent Lanbitou purchase has the same dryout problems. Deal-breaker for me. 

[TSherbs]

On the other topic, I appreciate good copies (not frauds) and have bought several. 

[donnweinberg]

To TSherbs:  You've hit upon an important point, I think.  The 3088 is a copy, not a fraud.  There are frauds that claim, for example, to be Parker Sonnets, with Parker badging, but their extremely low pricing gives them away as frauds in most cases.  No one is being fooled by the 3088; its price point is its selling point.  

 

The other, deeper issue about whether pen collectors should even purchase copies like the 3088, is not going to be resolved here, but the arguments are wonderful in both directions.

[garzaci]

I believe these cheap easily accessible pens actually result in sales of premium pens that otherwise wouldn't happen. I've seen numerous instances where someone started this hobby with the cheap replica and eventually was able to justify to themselves the purchase of the original inspiration of the replica. I have 1 Lamy, 2 preppy's and triple that number of Jinhaos all purchased in 6 weeks time. I've been able to speed the learning curve and try numerous designs to make an informed decision and be confident in a future purchase of a nice pen. Before trying these replicas it would be out of the realm of possibilities that I would ever purchase a $100, $200 or $300 etc pen, due to ignorance of this world. My first pen was a Lamy AL-Star that I bought on sale for half price with a gift card. After experiencing that pen, I would not have bought another if there weren't cheap options. It is nice, but it wasn't the experience I thought it was going to be and I actually felt bad spending $20 on a pen.