adaptive tripod grip

[agaric]

Anyone use the adaptive tripod grip (aka. D'Nealian grip)? Any tips for a newbie? Any pens you feel are perfect with this grip? ✍️

 

I've used a regular tripod grip all my life but it's left me with a writer's callus that I want to do away with. It's time for me to adopt this, supposedly the most ergonomic, pen hold.

[Karmachanic]

Probably wouldn't work for me as I use neither quail nor brash.

[mizgeorge]

3 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

Probably wouldn't work for me as I use neither quail nor brash.

is it April 1st?

[Karmachanic]

7 minutes ago, mizgeorge said:

is it April 1st?

 

Second link, last paragraph.

[agaric]

4 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

brash

😂 I want that pen called "Brash".

The tone of that article is a bit blunt but it was the first hit in the search engine. The researcher mentioned, Hideki Oshiki, seems legit though, not that I know anything about penmanship or Japanese writing (and even after google translating the researcher's website, I can't track down where he says that the adaptive tripod is the best grip).

[arcfide]

It's a legitimate grip in so far as any such grip can be considered "legitimate." I'd recommend using it with a good round point nib first, as I find it a little harder to get the angle right if I'm using that grip with other types of nibs. After some adjustment and practice, I'm sure you could use it with just about any nib. 

 

An alternative that I use if I feel I'm gripping too hard (enough to cause calluses) on the pen is to press down more on the page with my writing hand (if I'm using a wrist based hand writing rather than a whole arm style), which has the effect of increasing my control and reducing my finger tension. 

[InesF]

Hi @agaric.

Statements claiming 'the best' or 'the most ergonomic' etc. always read a bit suspect to me. I doubt if there is only one best way to hold your pen or to write or to draw or to position the paper in front of you. It is the combination of all those plus environmental factors, such as light, temperature (how much clothes you wear, if you transpirate or if your hand is shaking from cold) and how stable the surface is (stable desk, in the train, on your knees, ...).

 

I tried to reproduce the 'most ergonomic' grip shown in the article. Having the pen body between index and middle finger distracts me so heavily - I failed to draw even a straight line!

 

However, if you never before used a pencil or fountain pen, you have the chance to try different options and improve (over the next years) with the one you felt most comfortable. But if you already 'unintentionally' take and grip a pen, stay with it and improve only in having this grip in 'light hand' (=relaxed). You will improve so much faster.

[LizEF]

28 minutes ago, InesF said:

Statements claiming 'the best' or 'the most ergonomic' etc. always read a bit suspect to me.

Related to the concept but not directly to this topic... A network news program here recently reported that you're more likely to have a heart attack if you normally go to bed before 10pm.  That was exactly how they presented it, as if bedtime causes the heart attack - universally - and all you have to do is stay up later to avoid heart attacks. No further details were offered.  And I'm thinking to myself, "Is that standard or daylight time? Or do our hearts auto-magically know about the switch and change their propensity to attack?  Is this a world-wide phenomenon, no matter the climate, season, or latitude?  Or maybe it has more to do with all the things that generally cause one to go to bed (and get up) earlier.  Or maybe someone's spouting nonsense..."

 

More related to the topic, I have found that experimenting with my grip has helped me to maintain a relaxed grip.  I've also found that it's harder for me to control the pen with an extremely relaxed grip - which just means I need to practice more to retrain myself to that grip.  So I think there's value in experimenting and practice.  And yeah, grip is a very personal thing, as is handwriting style - do what works best for you.

[agaric]

On 12/6/2021 at 10:05 PM, arcfide said:

press down more on the page with my writing hand

This could work. I've been practicing this for a few days and noticed that properly differentiating between "pressing down" and "gripping tight" would need some serious rehabitualising, due to my inverted-triangle tripod.

 

Another possibility is to shift the entire tripod so that the index finger rests at the top (and pushes down), but this seems like an entirely different grip (and therefore also worth trying), also requiring much relaxation and practice as LizEF said.

 

3 hours ago, InesF said:

a bit suspect

2 hours ago, LizEF said:

exactly how they presented it

Oh yes, the characterisation ("adaptive tripod is the best") is definitely dubious, and I included it mostly partially tongue-in-cheek. However, at least one study observes that the pen hold reduces general tension while still retaining control, leading to applications of the technique in occupational therapy and pedagogy. I think the main thrust of this holding style is that it structurally resists an overly tight grip.

 

So, like the example of the misrepresented news report, that silly blog post's premise seems like an oversimplification of nuanced statistical data. Not everyone has arthritis or repetitive-stress-something-syndrome, and there are all those other factors to consider, as InesF mentioned.

 

But even with the sparse claims of ergonomic benefit, I'm interested in the adaptive tripod grip because it's the only one that doesn't disturb my middle finger knuckle callus while still closely resembling a regular tripod grip. I'm just so sick of the callus 😛 And being a newbie to fountain pens, I'm thinking, why not learn a better grip while I'm at it?

 

3 hours ago, InesF said:

pen body between index and middle finger distracts me so heavily

I felt the same way, especially with a thicker-barreled pen. Also, using the wrist to then write is uncomfortable.

Edited December 9, 2021 by agaric

[LizEF]

32 minutes ago, agaric said:

But even with the sparse claims of ergonomic benefit, I'm interested in the adaptive tripod grip because it's the only one that doesn't disturb my middle finger knuckle callus while still closely resembling a regular tripod grip. I'm just so sick of the callus 😛 And being a newbie to fountain pens, I'm thinking, why not learn a better grip while I'm at it?

Well, this is the thing, I think - if it works for you, or even if you just want to adapt yourself to it until it does work for you (we humans are more adaptable than we think, sometimes), go for it!  As I said, experimenting has helped me, so I try to encourage others to do it as well.

 

33 minutes ago, agaric said:

I felt the same way, especially with a thicker-barreled pen.

Ah, I didn't think of this until you said it, but no doubt the folks who came up with the grip are thinking about scrawny ballpoints.  Hand size and pen thickness have to be considered.

[agaric]

Whoops, some members already discussed this in 2012 -- apologies for the topic duplication. Together with the Sassoon book, that topic should answer most of my questions.

 

[InesF]

17 hours ago, agaric said:

But even with the sparse claims of ergonomic benefit, I'm interested in the adaptive tripod grip because it's the only one that doesn't disturb my middle finger knuckle callus while still closely resembling a regular tripod grip. I'm just so sick of the callus 😛 And being a newbie to fountain pens, I'm thinking, why not learn a better grip while I'm at it?

@LizEF already answered this. +1 from me

 

17 hours ago, agaric said:

I felt the same way, especially with a thicker-barreled pen. Also, using the wrist to then write is uncomfortable.

Indeed, @agaric, that's it. As I was so interested in this, I tried with several pens. I was able to write with the slim (Cross Botanica and Lamy CP1) but failed totally with the more girthy pens. Sorry, also a bit late with my test results.

 

The middle finger callus is nasty, indeed! To my experience, it is mainly a result of a too heavy grip and develops and disappears with grip strength.

 

Don't worry about the 2012 entry. It was your post that led me towards new-to-me experiments! 😊

[InesF]

Back with one more comment.

Finally, I was able to adapt to the adaptive (  ) tripod grip and write some words with the slimmest of my pens (Waterman Executive). Yes, it is possible and yes, it doesn't feel that strange with a slim pen or pencil.

 

After some minutes I recognized something else: the tripod grip is my 'intuitive' grip for short pencils and sticks (like charcoal or chalk). These short pieces lay in the same angel but do not reach towards middle and index finger.

👩‍🎓

[agaric]

On 12/10/2021 at 1:04 PM, InesF said:

As I was so interested in this, I tried with several pens

Yay, it's good to have a classmate.

 

I have a Lamy CP1 too and it works really well for me. I like that its section isn't so much more narrow than the barrel. Unlike a Kaweco Liliput, for instance, which also works okay, but its section's concavity makes me want to grip the pen tighter.

 

The best pen format, for me, seems to be a body that tapers down towards the back, with a section that is either straight or flares out towards the nib. An uncapped Pilot Pluminix seems ideal but I'm too lazy to track one down 😛

 

A few more observations:

 

- Perhaps it's the lack of practice, but I feel I don't have as fine a control with this new grip. So I tend to grip as close to the tip as comfortably possible. On a Jowo #6 nib, having the fingertips touch the actual nib provides most control. Maybe this isn't such a good idea.

 

- To avoid callusing, the bulk of the gripping is done with the tip of the middle finger and the thumb, positioned diametrically opposite. The index finger plays a supporting role.

 

- To lessen strain on the wrist, my palm is turned to the side and the palm-edge (rather than the flat of the wrist) rests on the desk. The pen leans to the side and the nib points west (9 o'clock). One side-effect to this is that stub nibs become architects. Another side-effect is that the girth of the barrel doesn't become so much of a problem. Yet another side-effect is that the palm-edge + pinky might become sore (though probably better than messing up your wrist).

 

12 hours ago, InesF said:

my 'intuitive' grip for short pencils and sticks

Cool, this grip must come somewhat naturally to you. If only we had holes in the corner of our palms.. 😛

 

On 12/9/2021 at 7:18 PM, agaric said:

the Sassoon book

What a wonderful book. The immediately relevant pages (in the 2009 edition) are 30-37.

 

They make a lot of interesting remarks, but three stand out: 1) With enough motivation, the penhold can be changed. 2) The fingers should move freely enough to draw practice spirals, although whether you use just the fingers in normal writing is another question. 3) There is evidence that many people used this particular grip throughout history with different writing instruments (ancient Egyptians, Romans, several political leaders on TV).

[InesF]

Some more observations for the adaptive tripod grip with one more day practicing.

 

On 12/11/2021 at 9:54 PM, agaric said:

- Perhaps it's the lack of practice, but I feel I don't have as fine a control with this new grip. So I tend to grip as close to the tip as comfortably possible.

Maybe, but only partly. In contrast to the 'normal' grip (pen resting on the middle finger and reaching out between thumb and index finger), the hand needs to be rotated for the adaptive tripod grip so that both, the outer edge and the thumb part of the palm rest at the writing surface. This makes the slow movement along the writing line less steady.

Intuitively, I lifted the palm a bit which caused tension in the arm (shoulder?) muscle and a loss of control for the fine movements.

If you grip your pen so close to its nib, you may have more control applied with your fingertips but you reduce the room to move. It will only work with tiny handwriting. Especially tiny handwriting needs way more precision to still be readable - means: way more practice. If you lift the palm, ...., you run into several problems.

 

If the hand is not rotated (still only the outer edge of the palm resting on the surface), the pen has a weird writing angel. Indeed, an architect grind will behave like a stub.

 

The adaptive tripod works well with chalk on the vertical green board as the palm of the hand doesn't rest on the surface (and usually the writing is bigger).

 

This was a nice exercise, I learned a lot. But I think, that was it now. I will stick with my 'non adaptive', callus forming, intuitive fountain pen grip.

Thank you, @agaricfor the initiative and motivation!  

[agaric]

On 12/13/2021 at 10:07 AM, InesF said:

It will only work with tiny handwriting

Indeed, I only write tiny text, and keep my hands close to the vest, as it were. I hadn't thought of larger handwriting, but can imagine how that would allow different (maybe more natural) configurations of the arm and wrist.

 

On 12/13/2021 at 10:07 AM, InesF said:

This was a nice exercise

🙂 Thanks for trying it out with me. I'm going to stick with it and adopt it as my main stance. Even after just a week, my callus has subsided quite a bit. Now I just need to decide on and commit to the "best" wrist/palm/finger angles.

 

If there are any long-term practitioners out there, I'd love to get feedback on what angles work well.

[Centurion]

On 12/6/2021 at 4:05 PM, arcfide said:

It's a legitimate grip in so far as any such grip can be considered "legitimate." I'd recommend using it with a good round point nib first, as I find it a little harder to get the angle right if I'm using that grip with other types of nibs. After some adjustment and practice, I'm sure you could use it with just about any nib. 

 

An alternative that I use if I feel I'm gripping too hard (enough to cause calluses) on the pen is to press down more on the page with my writing hand (if I'm using a wrist based hand writing rather than a whole arm style), which has the effect of increasing my control and reducing my finger tension. 

So a round point nib is the most forgiving, makes sense if yes.

 

I'm right-handed and I seem to often rotate my FP as time goes on when writing. I rotate counter-clockwise. At first the top of the nib is facing the ceiling (more or less), but over time the face of the nib is facing me as I write (counter-close wise rotation). Would a left-footed oblique nib in say OM or OB solve my rotation tendency? Do people get oblique nib because the counter-clockwise rotate their FPs or more because an oblique nib gives more line variation?

[ajoe]

You can hold your pens however you like, but there is no way to freely rotate the pen with that grip.

[agaric]

2 hours ago, Centurion said:

often rotate my FP as time goes on when writing

That's interesting. Although there is some wiggle room for the body to rotate back and forth (due to the flabbiness of skin around the proximal phalanges), I find that this grip doesn't allow the pen to keep rotating, and it stays mostly in place. Contrasted with the regular tripod grip, which is much more lax about pen rotation.

 

I've never used an oblique nib before, so can't really comment (hope you get better responses at the other thread you posted in). At first glance, though, it seems that a nib being oblique wouldn't resist rotational tendencies any more than being italic would.

[arcfide]

18 hours ago, Centurion said:

Would a left-footed oblique nib in say OM or OB solve my rotation tendency? Do people get oblique nib because the counter-clockwise rotate their FPs or more because an oblique nib gives more line variation?

 

There are right and left oblique nibs, with the more common being those designed for, I believe, left handed writing angles. Such nibs would not particularly aid in someone who rotates their hand in the opposite direction. The way to think about it is whether the rotation of your nib will result in more or less of the primary writing point surface contacting the page or not. You can examine the grind, look at your rotation, and then decide whether this is likely to help with keeping more of the writing tip on the page.