small, tiny, short, minimal-length caps

[agaric]

Hello. I like really short, thimble-like caps. These caps cover just the nib and do not cover any significant part of the section, which seems to afford a more continuous/free design in the pen body. It probably also simplifies the interaction between components to make things like capping more straightforward.

 

Possible downsides, I suppose, are the exacerbation of nib dryout (? no idea if this is the case), and how ink will get in the joint when dipping.

 

Do you know of any other examples of small-capped pens? Are there more downsides/benefits to this design? I'm not a designer/maker of fountain pens nor hoping to become one; just curious why the SMALLCAPS aren't more common. (Please let me know if this was discussed already; couldn't find a relevant thread in my searches)

 

What I mean (and the only examples I could find):

• Bic XPen
• Franklin-Christoph 25
• Jorg Hysek Carbon Fiber
• Namisu Orion
• Rotring Skynn
• Spoke Axle

 

On the fence:

• very short "section" (Faber Castell Ambition, ...)
• cap protruding past nib-base slightly (...?)

 

Not what I mean:

• retractable with no separate cap (Lamy Dialog, Pilot Vanishing Point, ...)
• retractable with long cap (Waterman 14 VS, ...)

[I-am-not-really-here]

The Waterman 14VS has a retractable nib, it is a Safety. You can't cap the pen when the nib is extended. If that is okay then there are a lot of Safety pens that would work, too many to list, any pen manufacturer from 100 years ago offered one.  But you state at the end that retractable is out so...?

 

Leonard Slattery's A Cuig design https://www.leonardslattery.ie/scriobh-pens/a-cuig might suit you.
 

There are two downsides to short-capped pens that I see: there is no grip to speak of, and the user may well end up grabbing the cap threads, typically not finger-friendly;  there is no clip.  

[grainweevil]

The Berol Handwriting Pen probably qualifies. A surprisingly good writer, but iirc the snap fit of the cap gave up on mine rather quickly. It actually went from having to haul it off with considerable effort (not easy to get a grip with a short cap) to pinging off of its own accord.

 

The Pilot Penmanship/Plumix/Pluminix all have tiny caps too.

[agaric]

21 hours ago, I-am-not-really-here said:

Waterman 14VS ... is a Safety

I see. I was a bit confused about how a safety works. But yeah, that specific Waterman should be on the "not what I mean" list. Because the cap covers a significant portion of the section, thereby constraining it. If there is a safety though with a super small cap, that would fit the bill.

 

(corrected first post)

 

21 hours ago, I-am-not-really-here said:

Leonard Slattery's A Cuig

17 hours ago, grainweevil said:

Berol Handwriting Pen

...

Pilot Penmanship/Plumix/Pluminix

Cool, thanks. That Cuig pen is beautiful. Plumix, right. Then there's also the Jinhao Shark.

 

Also reminded of the Monteverde Tool Pen.

 

21 hours ago, I-am-not-really-here said:

no grip to speak of ... no clip

Indeed, getting a clip on there could be tricky, though the Bic XPen is an example that does manage.

 

Regarding the grip, I would disagree. Having the cap short and not intruding on the section means that the grip can be anything the designer wants. At least theoretically. In fact, the nib size and grip diameter can be totally different and the grip design need not be restricted and dictated by the cap.

[K Singh]

One pen that immediately came to my mind after reading your post is one Eboya model I had seen earlier.

I loved that design too, though I don't own any pen like that.

 

You can check out the pen here: https://eboyashop.com/collections/fountain-pens/products/kobue-wooden-flute-tips2020-model

[maclink]

There's the Calamus Fountain Pen that sort of fits.

[Bo Bo Olson]

OK, I like caps, and the cap on the medium-small Pelikan 140 is a bit longer than the cap on the one time flagship of Geha; the 760. The 140 has better balance.

Balance can be had or lost in fractions of an inch or a cm here or there. One of the reasons guys use to stand around as the coffee got cold, slapping ivory slapsticks....while they made classic fountain pens.

 

 

Of course that is posted...it moves the weight of the pen back..................Back when one wrote all day from the late '30-s to sometime in the 70's outside MB's 149/6 signature pens, well balanced pens were needed to sell a person, a pen every decade, if he needed it or not.

His/her new pen had to have great balance or they commented heresy and bought another brand.

That is why pens of that era are so well balanced.

 

Some folks refuse to post for religious reasons............unfortunately some of them complain how short a pen is that is designed to be posted.

Fear of mars is remedied by waxing the pen.

 

If course if one grew up with long ill balanced Large and over sized pens....one don't know what balance is in the first place so mini-caps wouldn't do anything posted or not. Pens that one can not post because the pen is too long, to go along with it's ill balance.

 

 

In I don't know where you are at Agaric....I could suggest a Snorkel or a P-51 if in the States....Or a second generation P-45.

 

If in Europe my suggestion is to get your self a well balanced pen, with a regular cap. Semi-vintage Pelikan 200, has great balance and a good nib....and is affordable. If you hunt you can get a standard sized Geha 790 (they were aimed at the Pelikan 400)...a very well balanced pen in the classic '50's torpedo/cigar shape with a semi-flex nib for E 60-80.

It has been the best buy in semi-flex fountain pens since I've been on the come for 13 years....Back then it cost E-15 vs E-50 for a Pelikan 140. I kept bragging about them...only have 4 of them in different widths.......A nice Lady told me to stop when they hit E-19....but I had to share the good news..............the E-60-80 is actually cheap for such a great balanced pen with a fantastic nib.

It was then and still is the best buy in semi-flex.

 

Semi-flex is a flair nib.....not a flexi nib for calligraphy.

Gives you that old fashioned fountain pens script with out you doing anything at all.....helps to write in cursive more than printing.

 

If one prints go Japanese.....those pens are designed for a tiny Japanese printed script.

 

 

One does want to write all day with one's fountain pen..........and not make excuses to stop writing like the two or three examples I've seen offered. They lack balance.

 

It helps to find balance by holding (letting it rest)  a fountain pen, like a fountain pen behind the big index knuckle at 45 degrees or at the start of the web of the thumb at 40 degrees; instead of holding it vertical before the big index finger knuckle like a ball point.

Holding a fountain pen very lightly is a must, that can not be met when holding it like a ball point.

 

With the questions you ask no one might have pointed that out too you.

 

[agaric]

On 11/30/2021 at 7:09 PM, K Singh said:

one Eboya model

Wowow beautiful! But as <I-am-not-really-here> mentioned, this pen is an example of not providing overt grippage, despite all the freedom to do so. Wonder how the ergonomics are..

 

On 11/30/2021 at 9:44 PM, maclink said:

Calamus

I saw this on Stephen Brown's channel; it seemed quite interesting. Do you grip it after/on the step, or in the short section?

 

41 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

great balance and a good nib

The rich information is much appreciated. Very cool that you landed on the Geha 790! I often hear/read about the pens you mentioned, but not so much about Geha.

 

You bring up an interesting point about balance. I think that's one aspect where very small caps can shine: they add & subtract a (relatively) trivial amount of weight, which could make the posting-balance equation more manageable. Some regular-length-caps post deeply to achieve that sweet spot, but wouldn't it be simpler (and make the pen feel even more balanced) to just start with a minimally small cap?

 

I'm curious, have you encountered any vintage, or not-so-vintage, pens whose caps do not cover the section?

 

PS: I'm not asking in order to acquire another pen, I'm just trying to "feel out" the landscape of small cap design. Hm, this was never a concern before I got into fountain pens, I guess because most ballpoints and pencils I used were retractable or simply exposed, out-and-proud.

[K Singh]

2 hours ago, agaric said:

Wowow beautiful! But as <I-am-not-really-here> mentioned, this pen is an example of not providing overt grippage, despite all the freedom to do so. Wonder how the ergonomics are..

Don't own the pen, but if it's made of ebonite then the grip should not be a problem I guess. I find ebonite hand-made pens very comfortable, but yes only someone who owns the pen can say about it's balance. The shape tells me it will work for me, but can't be sure about others.

[Bo Bo Olson]

8 hours ago, agaric said:

(and make the pen feel even more balanced) to just start with a minimally small cap?

First men use to own shirt pockets. In @ 1895 the shirt pocket was invented for the new slip on a clip fountain pen. Sewed on cuff's and collars were also new, in the lazy woman's read while you peddle the wash machine had come in. That included the well to do and upper middle class went over to daily changes in underwear, in Monday's was no longer just Wash Day. Before that it was change underwear after the weekly bath.

 

The original stenographic ink pencil had a half inch skinny cap. Iridium ring and tipping kept it long lifed. They were The Thing, just before Waterman invented the first of many inventions that made a fountain pen better.....

 

Those early pens having shorter caps, and were longer than the later standard sized pens.

Not counting my Fendomatci, which I don't feel like digging out, my early pens are a pre'24 MB Safety pen, not one of their bigger Safety Pens from the small bit of reading I've found. It is a Large pen, and lacks a touch of balance...

It is oversize width, longer than my '70-now 146's and has better balance than they do. The 146 feels a bit more stately, being wider.

My Waterman 52 is also a large thin pen, which I find better balanced than expected. The Snorkel is also a large thin pen with great balance.

 

IMO it appears that having a long enough cap does a few things, it makes the pen small enough to fit into shirt pockets, it adds length to the pen when posted, and shifts the balance point back when posted.

 

I use the forefinger up method of grasping a fountain pen, instead of the inclined to press to hard 10-2 Tripod. That makes a difference, in I find Large and Oversized pens un posted too small.

And they lack balance that way or posted.

 

After having Geha 790's for a decade, I found out about the Geha 780's...full stripped cap and body. Some guy on the com had 6-8 of them and I'd never heard of them, and I'd been pushing 790's for a decade.

The 760's medium small were stripped in the body only. (The cap of the 140 is a bit longer, and the 140 therefor has better balance in it sizes the same as the 400.) I have one with out a picture of it. The 760 had always cost 20% more than a 790.

But pure luck had me cruising on the Bay, and I stumbled on one of the 780's I won for @ E-145 give or take. I was stubborn.

 

The nib nor pen is marked, but looks like an OB, is a two toned  14k/585 maxi-semi-flex. (Degussa nib, in besides Osmai/OFC Degussa made Geha's nibs which is why they are that slight, tad better than Pelikan's.)

For the sheer hell of it, the original @ '59 true three ring 790.

Often I take the picture of any pen I won. The rings polished up nicely.

 

The real problem why I've not been pushing Geha 790's any more, is folks refuse to save $1-200.00 by going to look in auction section of Geman Ebay. Ebay.de.

They would rather pay $250 for one that some German dealer translated and put in US Ebay. They also have the same pen in the impatient Buy Now Idiot section of German Ebay in case some American comes looking.....and list the very same pen in the auction section with a start price E-15 lower than the rip off price. That shows one what a deal one gets by being a no wait Idiot.

There are often enough others put in by amateurs that start at a more reasonable price.

Actually they have taken the bait and want the E-230 that that rip off artist is looking for, so jack the price and wonder why none buy.

 

If one Hunts one can get the deal....but Hunting often takes 3 weeks to a month to get the real bargains.

 

The impatient don't understand that Hunting can be fun....besides saving lots of money for ink and papers.

The Thrill of being Out Sniped in the last second; the Joy of Sniping First................The Golden Rule is.....one only makes one bid, snipe or not.

Really, Hunting is a cheap adrenaline rush. ...when one watches the clock.

 

You should still be able to get a Geha 790 from E-60 to E-80.

 

 

[agaric]

Muji fountain pen. It's got a really small "section", like the Ambition and Calamus. But I don't think anyone would grip there with the Muji, given all the knurling.

 

On 11/30/2021 at 11:46 AM, grainweevil said:

snap fit of the cap gave up on mine rather quickly ... not easy to get a grip with a short cap

I see. A few other less-expensive snap caps like Plumix and Shark seem to use tiny protrusions for that grippage. The majority of tiny caps seem to use the screw mechanism which I guess is more durable.

 

On 12/2/2021 at 11:54 AM, Bo Bo Olson said:

Hunting can be fun

I got a taste of this a few days ago when I won a lonely auction for a Pelikan M215 for less than half the price ☺️

[agaric]

TiScribe EDC. Threaded, with clip. An example of bolder grippage.

 

capillaris. Interestingly, this is a slip cap. Besides the Calamus, the capillaris is the only fullmetal smallcap pen I've seen that doesn't screw to cap/post.

[gerigo]

Here's mine from a selection on my accessible pen tray. I have a few more that's in deeper storage. Can you identify these?

[agaric]

Fantastic! They look like excellent pens. It was fun googling them, and I think they're as follows, top to bottom:

 

• ?
• Treasia Design Fiber. Magnetic capping. Small section (like Ambition and Calamus).
• ST Dupont Montparnasse. Snap or screw capping?
• Michael's FAT BOY Silencer. Screw capping. No section (with o-ring? like Spoke Axle).
• Aurora 950 Nobile. Screw capping. Safety mechanism. Not a SMALLCAP by my (and <I-am-not-really-here>'s) description in first few posts.
• Waterman Serenite. Push capping. Very small section.

[Bo Bo Olson]

1930's Fendomatic Safety Pen, made by the German company Fend in Milan.

short cap.

With permission of Penboard.de, in they take a great picture. My chasing is slightly different.

There I was at the live auction, thinking not only were they trying to sell a pen with out a nib, the feed was missing also!!!

The the lady behind the counter screwed the bottom, pushing the nib and feed up and out.

I'll never play poker with that lady.

 

[agaric]

c.1878 Cross Stylograph (#2 in image, source page, a variation).

Oh heck yeah!

[Bo Bo Olson]

Thanks for the picture of the 'stylographic pen'.

 

I'm writing a four book western saga, full of opera houses, cheating gamblers, loose women, and ice shaken cocktails...on page 2,334 there is a cow, a Guernsey.

 

Having a book about cows chewing their cud being rustled is rather boring, when all the real crooks and killers were in the towns and cities. Going to Operas; all sung in English; when 3 of the top 10 Opera singers in the world were American. Every six horse  or two gold or silver mine towns had an opera house.

 

Post civil war cowboys often wore bowlers or pork pie hats more than the Stetson. It wasn't until the Wild West shows that the cowboy had to have a Stetson. By then he wasn't allowed to wear a gun anywhere, even on the range.

 

Good saloons had clean towels on rings of the bar to wipe the beer foam from one's mustache, and  a French buffet 'free lunch'. (3 drinks = free lunch.) And shaken cocktails and good sherries and French brandies.

 

Of course the beer cost a quarter; it kept that drunken cow herder out (who got two beers for a quarter...(old sweaty cheese and ham sandwiches and pickled egg free lunch as shown in Hollywood); who mostly made $20 unless black then $15....so he wasn't going far; much less cross the line to the good bars.

 

 

Big Nosed Kate said the City Gangsters like the Earp's and Holiday were better shots than the Country cow rustling Gangsters killed at the OK Corral in they practiced at the town's shooting gallery's all the time.

 

Earp was a murdering crook, paid the Gov. of Colorado $250,000  (gold money, 12,500 double eagles) so he'd not be extradited back to Arizona to face murder charges. Pretty good on a Marshall's salary.

The whole family had been Back East, Illinois/Nebraska/Kansas pimps. Virgil stayed married to his ex-working girl. Wyatt left one wife to fall back into that deadly life, for another ex working girl.

 

Holiday was Big Nosed Kate's bought man. She supplied him with money anytime he went broke gambling. All the games were crooked**, and gamblers have to gamble even if it's not their game.

Crooked Faro dealers made a small fortune, and Faro was the game played, not poker. And there were so many kinds of crooked dealing shoes for stacked as you watched decks.

 

**Big Ed Chase the top gangster of Denver for generations, was one of only two places in Denver where straight games were played, the other was directly across the street from Chase's Palace gambling hall and theater All the other gangsters & saloons with crooked games...even crooked bar dice games against the bartender games paid Big Ed (a huge man for the times 6'-4", 240 pounds, when to be a heavy weight boxer one was 161 pounds  or more.) protection money that he paid the politicians. (Like Soapy Smith; later big in Creed and the Yukon. He would wrap money in soap bars and sell chances out of a leg drop suitcase, so he could move if the cops came. His confederate would win big money and fools would by 5 cent soap for a dollar.) 

 

The pick pockets could only work the four blocks of 14-17th street between the RR station and Larimier Street and couldn't pick the pocket of any Denver resident. Three card Monte was only allowed just in front of the huge train station and the first block into town.

Yegs/safe crackers were not allowed in town.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

 

 

Mackinnon was the inventor of those pens, Cross a copy cat. It went to court and Cross lost.  Then Mackinnon died so Cross got away with it.

Thanks for the info in I had them using black rubber, not the Red Mottled Hard Rubber shown. If Cross had such rubber then , so did Mackinnon.

It appears the auction house expert was wrong!!!!

"""Did you know that the Waterman 12 was one of the very first pens to be offered in RED hard rubber? I have a 1907 advert showing this pen as................... """

 

And that picture shows a MB Safety Pen that I have similar of.

#5..........1925 Montblanc 0 Safety eyedropper-fill in BHR. Extremely hard to find. Montblanc "14K 0" fine nib. Near mint.

 

Mine is pre-'24 in it has a Simplo #6 nib, that is a Weak Kneed Wet Noodle.....and thicker.

At a live auction, I examined an MB Safety Pen that I didn't win, it too was a Weak Kneed Wet Noodle. The only two I've had in my hand.

 

[Sailor Kenshin]

I have a couple of these Papermate DJ fountain pens.  Surprisingly good writers for the price.

 

Examples.

[agaric]

Cool. Yep, the DJs, Berols, Plumixes, XPens, Skynns of the fp world -- they know wassup.

 

I was frankly amazed to learn that the first(?) fountain pen ever designed also had the smallest cap ever. Which implies that long caps are merely a trend and a fad 😁😛 But joking aside, I'm very curious why MacKinnon and Cross quickly switched to a longcapped shape. Maybe dry-out was an issue with the first design, or maybe it just wasn't structurally sturdy.

 

On 1/8/2022 at 3:56 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

It went to court and Cross lost.  Then Mackinnon died so Cross got away with it.

This is very disturbing and seems unjust. So apparently, one needs to set up a "patent holding company" in order for the patent to remain in effect should the inventor become unavailable.

[gerigo]

Part 2 of the short caps. One pen tried to get into the picture although it's a cheat! Can you identify these?

 

In the previous picture, the first one not identified is the PenBBS 2021 Chinese New Year limited pen.