Montblanc "architect" nibs

[stoen]

On 10/20/2021 at 11:21 AM, mke said:

Is there any way to check if a MB149 nib is EF or F or M?

 

I’m not sure if there is a universal way of checking, because the concepts of nib grade and grind have also evolved within 70+ years of model 149 life span.

AFAICT, the EF nibs also have those characteristical long and elegant tines, like those pictured within this thread, at least in the 60s and 70s.

 

On 10/20/2021 at 1:38 AM, fpupulin said:

I don't know if the so-called "architect grind", which results in a larger horizontal stroke than the vertical one, is something to be pursued or has any beauty of its own. What is certain is that, for those who have used the extra-fine and fine nibs of the Meisterstück pens for some time, this type of grind can become habitual and appreciated for its characteristics.

I can’t give a decent commrnent on this question. At the time I bought my pen #149 I was a high school kid who knew nothing of nib grinding. It did not become “habitual and appreciated” after having used EF and F nibs for some time. I fell in love with how this pen wrote at first stroke, and have loved it ever since...

🙂

[bunnspecial]

As a ballpark "eyeball" test, here's what I look at on MB nibs:

 

EF will have this sort of Architect looking grind where it's wider perpendicular to the slits than parallel

 

F tends to "follow" the tines but still be more or less round at the end

 

M tends to be more of a round "ball" where the edges stand proud of the tines

 

B will have a sort of "flattened ball" profile on the end. This gives them some stub character, but not dramatic

 

BB and larger tend to be very stubby.

 

I don't have 149s in all grinds, but have 146s and 149s covering EF to BB. I can try to photograph them this afternoon, but there are some great photos out there already.

[NoType]

On 10/15/2021 at 3:05 PM, bunnspecial said:

Every Montblanc EF nib I have owned has what appears to be an Architect type grind. The tipping very much has a "wedge" shape, and in fact it's distinctive enough that I feel comfortable assigning the EF designation to an unknown nib if I see that grind.

 

With that said, I do not exactly see architect-like behavior in the ones I've used. Here is an EF 149 in my pocket. I've owned a variety of 2-digit MBs that have this also, and have a 221 that is marked EF on the box now.

 

This is a terrible set of photos. Since moving last year, I haven't been able to set up a proper studio or something even remotely resembling one. I use to routinely photograph clear, in focus, and well lit items much smaller than nib tipping, but in particular lack the lighting I need to do so successfully now.

 

This particular paper is in the good but not outstanding category, and I used it because I had it handy. It does not bleed or ghost, and does not feather noticeably but pens do seem to write a tiny bit wider on it than they do on Rhodia, which is my reference paper. With that said, I have not seen line variation on it either.

 

bunnspecial, thank you for this explanation and especially for working around your lighting limitations to provide the accompanying images of the nib, replete with writing sample, which are helpful nevertheless.

[NoType]

17 hours ago, fpupulin said:

I put my nose in this thread to share some photographs of Montblanc nibs. Because of the way they write, they can be categorized in the group of "architect" nibs. After the photographs I have included an image with the stroke that the three nibs in question release.

 

The first set of photographs refers to an EF nib, originally mounted on a 1978 Meisterstück149. Note that the image of this nib is taken at a higher magnification than the following.

 

 

Another 149 EF follows, from the late 1980s. The original ebonite feeder was replaced with a plastic one during a service.

 

 

Finally, the nib of my Montblanc WE Hemingway, from 1992.

 

 

Here is an image of the strokes that the three nibs let down. 

 

 

I don't know if the so-called "architect grind", which results in a larger horizontal stroke than the vertical one, is something to be pursued or has any beauty of its own. What is certain is that, for those who have used the extra-fine and fine nibs of the Meisterstück pens for some time, this type of grind can become habitual and appreciated for its characteristics.

fpupulin, this is really a textbook-quality contribution to the analysis of an EF nib; your photographs are superlative in clarity, detail, and visual information.  Thank you very much!

[NoType]

1 hour ago, bunnspecial said:

As a ballpark "eyeball" test, here's what I look at on MB nibs:

 

EF will have this sort of Architect looking grind where it's wider perpendicular to the slits than parallel

 

F tends to "follow" the tines but still be more or less round at the end

 

M tends to be more of a round "ball" where the edges stand proud of the tines

 

B will have a sort of "flattened ball" profile on the end. This gives them some stub character, but not dramatic

 

BB and larger tend to be very stubby.

 

I don't have 149s in all grinds, but have 146s and 149s covering EF to BB. I can try to photograph them this afternoon, but there are some great photos out there already.

bunnspecial, these are good descriptions of the different standard Montblanc nibs, and I for one would very warmly welcome correlative photographs, which would be wonderful for embodying your text as well as putting all the nib images in one post, with a highly informative and visually rewarding result for your efforts.

[bunnspecial]

1 minute ago, NoType said:

bunnspecial, these are good descriptions of the different standard Montblanc nibs, and I for one would very warmly welcome correlative photographs, which would be wonderful for embodying your text as well as putting all the nib images in one post, with a highly informative and visually rewarding result for your efforts.

 

Will work on when I can. Work has been unmitigated you-know-what for the last few weeks, and something like that sounds very relaxing.

 

I THINK I currently have pens inked in most of these sizes, so hopefully can provide writing samples also.

 

F and M 149s are on my shopping list for one of these days. For a while I was on a kick of only getting them in B and OB, and then added an EF just by chance(bought it a bit blind but thought it looked like an EF from the photo...and I couldn't pass up $600 for 2x Parker 51s, an 80s 149, and a Mk1 blue Marble Duofold with what turned out to be a factory italic nib). My F and Ms are on either 146s or #6 nibbed LEs(which I suspect also have 146 internals).

 

I LOVE my 146s, and for a while-several years-despite having a bunch of pens, my W. Germany M nib 146 was MY pen that was always in my pocket filled usually with iron gall Midnight Blue or Pelikan BB and that signed some important things like my master's thesis, a few employment offers, and the biggest of all, my marriage license. My wife and I are hoping to make a house purchase in a year, and I hope that pen will be along for the ride also. None the less, though, it became my ONE pen because it's so great.

 

That aside, though, I've come to really enjoy the size of the 149 and after a bit of teething pains find the 146 a bit more cramping now.

[NoType]

2 hours ago, bunnspecial said:

 

Will work on when I can. Work has been unmitigated you-know-what for the last few weeks, and something like that sounds very relaxing.

 

I THINK I currently have pens inked in most of these sizes, so hopefully can provide writing samples also.

 

F and M 149s are on my shopping list for one of these days. For a while I was on a kick of only getting them in B and OB, and then added an EF just by chance(bought it a bit blind but thought it looked like an EF from the photo...and I couldn't pass up $600 for 2x Parker 51s, an 80s 149, and a Mk1 blue Marble Duofold with what turned out to be a factory italic nib). My F and Ms are on either 146s or #6 nibbed LEs(which I suspect also have 146 internals).

 

I LOVE my 146s, and for a while-several years-despite having a bunch of pens, my W. Germany M nib 146 was MY pen that was always in my pocket filled usually with iron gall Midnight Blue or Pelikan BB and that signed some important things like my master's thesis, a few employment offers, and the biggest of all, my marriage license. My wife and I are hoping to make a house purchase in a year, and I hope that pen will be along for the ride also. None the less, though, it became my ONE pen because it's so great.

 

That aside, though, I've come to really enjoy the size of the 149 and after a bit of teething pains find the 146 a bit more cramping now.

bunnspecial, many on this forum will be immensely grateful for any efforts you expend towards furnishing photography of the Montblanc nib sizes, in the time you have available.  It is very generous of you to provide this public service to new members such as myself, and on behalf of all of us I dare say that we are highly appreciative.

 

Other parts of your post are no less appreciated — your story of stumbling across an EF 149 when landing such a great deal for five esteemed pens, and especially the narrative surrounding your writing partner, the trusty 146 that has borne witness to so many life events.  These are the sorts of tales that play a great part in making this forum so cherished and highly regarded, and which motivate me to come back again and again.

 

Thank you very much for brightening my day!

[Barry Gabay]

Thank you bunnyspecial for contributing so much to our understanding of this very interesting Montblanc nib feature.  Thanks too to everyone who has contributed photos and information to this thread. Most, but not all, of my 149 nibs dating from mid-1970s until the early 1980s have clear architect (Arabic-Hebrew) features: wide horizontal & narrow vertical.  I hope the photos below help to reveal this very interesting nib style. The photos show 149s from mid-1970s until 1983/84. 

[NoType]

On 10/20/2021 at 4:37 PM, Barry Gabay said:

Thank you bunnyspecial for contributing so much to our understanding of this very interesting Montblanc nib feature.  Thanks too to everyone who has contributed photos and information to this thread. Most, but not all, of my 149 nibs dating from mid-1970s until the early 1980s have clear architect (Arabic-Hebrew) features: wide horizontal & narrow vertical.  I hope the photos below help to reveal this very interesting nib style. The photos show 149s from mid-1970s until 1983/84. 

Barry Gabay, thank you for these wonderfully clear and informative images; I consider myself extremely fortunate to view these and learn from them.

[fpupulin]

Juts to put things in a context, I took a few shots of an extra-fine nib from another brand for comparison. This is the EF bib from a OMAS Grand Paragon, and you may easily see that the grind of the tip is simply round-subspherical, unless the elongated shape of the "architecture" grind of Montblanc EF nibs as shown in the previous photographs.

 

[fpupulin]

On 10/20/2021 at 3:21 AM, mke said:

Is there any way to check if a MB149 nib is EF or F or M?

 

 

Well, at least for the nibs of the periods described by Barry, I have the impression that, with the aid of a more-or-less good photograph, you can try to guess with some degree of certainty.

 

If you look at the iridium tip from above, and just take in consideration a single tine, the ratio between length and width in a EF nib is >3:1, whilst in a F nib is distinctly <3:1.

 

I made a digital sketch that mayi be clearer than a description.

 

 

[stoen]

On 10/21/2021 at 1:37 AM, Barry Gabay said:

Most, but not all, of my 149 nibs dating from mid-1970s until the early 1980s have clear architect (Arabic-Hebrew) features: wide horizontal & narrow vertical. 

I just meant to mention the link of your great 2019 interview, @Barry Gabay, when I realized you actually participated in the thread. What a great insight into EF nib topic!

🙂

IMHO, the interview is nevertheless, one of the finest, most detailed, objective and most honest articles I ever saw of this pen and I’m sure everyone would appreciate reading it, if not having read already:

 

https://www.vintagemontblancpens.com/barry-gabay-interview-149

 

As a matter of fact, my EF 149 is even more “architect ground” than any of the other nibs pictured, although its writing effect isn’t very strongly pronounced...

 

[NoType]

19 hours ago, fpupulin said:

Juts to put things in a context, I took a few shots of an extra-fine nib from another brand for comparison. This is the EF bib from a OMAS Grand Paragon, and you may easily see that the grind of the tip is simply round-subspherical, unless the elongated shape of the "architecture" grind of Montblanc EF nibs as shown in the previous photographs.

 

fpupulin, thank you for these great images contrasting the shape of the Omas Grand Paragon EF nib to the Montblanc EF nib.  The bulbous tip of the Omas EF puts in high relief the elongated one from Montblanc.

 

Similarly, your analysis in your subsequent post of the length-to-width ratios of Montblanc EF and F nib tippings further emphasises the elongated quality of the extra-fine Montblanc nib.

[NoType]

16 hours ago, stoen said:

I just meant to mention the link of your great 2019 interview, @Barry Gabay, when I realized you actually participated in the thread. What a great insight into EF nib topic!

🙂

IMHO, the interview is nevertheless, one of the finest, most detailed, objective and most honest articles I ever saw of this pen and I’m sure everyone would appreciate reading it, if not having read already:

 

https://www.vintagemontblancpens.com/barry-gabay-interview-149

 

As a matter of fact, my EF 149 is even more “architect ground” than any of the other nibs pictured, although its writing effect isn’t very strongly pronounced...

 

stoen, as a new member I am deeply obliged to you for providing this link to the 2019 Vintage Montblanc Pens interview of Barry Gabay.  Also, the writing sample of your 149 EF very helpfully illustrates the wider horizontal lines of the “architect” grind.

[Barry Gabay]

Thank you NoType for your kind words, stoen for your kind words and writing sample, and Franco for your excellent photography and for the diagram contrasting EF and F nib tipping. So many genuine people are contributing to our understanding of the architect qualities of Montblanc nibs.

 

Below are some photos of EF nibs on my wife's two model 144s from the early 1990s. Though produced later than the era we have been discussing, both nibs have architecture-style nib tipping. 

 

Be well. Enjoy your weekend. 

Best wishes, 

Barry

[NoType]

4 hours ago, Barry Gabay said:

Thank you NoType for your kind words, stoen for your kind words and writing sample, and Franco for your excellent photography and for the diagram contrasting EF and F nib tipping. So many genuine people are contributing to our understanding of the architect qualities of Montblanc nibs.

 

Below are some photos of EF nibs on my wife's two model 144s from the early 1990s. Though produced later than the era we have been discussing, both nibs have architecture-style nib tipping. 

 

Be well. Enjoy your weekend. 

Best wishes, 

Barry

Barry Gabay, your generosity in sharing images and information continues to astound.  Thanks to your posts, as well as those from bunnspecial, CS388, JulieParadise, stoen, Pen Nut, Karmachanic, and fpupulin, it seems well established that Montblanc EF nibs had “architect” characteristics in the appearance of the tipping and in many cases the writing itself.  However, I couldn’t help but notice that mke’s original query as to why, remains mostly unanswered.  Perhaps speculation on the part of members here might be necessary, and though conjecture is not always reliable like sober analysis, it is certainly entertaining and may also be informative, especially if it is informed guesswork.

[mke]

@Barry Gabay

@fpupulin

Thanks for the photos and the nib size evaluation drawing.

 

Both have nibs as shown in Barry's first posting, 2nd photo. One of them is from the end of the 1980s and one of them from the start of the 1990s.

Both of my 149 seem to be F nibs, however, looking at line sizes this would be more like M in Sailor sizes. (For me, Sailor sizes are the sizes which I compare everything with.)

I prefer anything as small as or smaller than MF.

 

I need to think hard if I should let a nibmeister (Mr. Nagahara or Mr. Mori) make "Sailor-Fs" from them.

 

You can see in this photo, writings done with Pilot Custom 823 F, Pilot BlueBlack (left), Waldmann 100th anniversary LE with a Bock 250 M with Waterman Serenity Blue (middle) and MB149 F with Pelikan Royal Blue (right).

Papersize B5 with 6 mm line differences.

Left is OK, middle is acceptable, right is not OK. I know that one has to adapt to the pens (not the opposite, as some people claim) and I tried hard to find a way to write with that nib - to no avail.

 

 

[stoen]

Perhaps this photo against a darker background can also contribute in helping understand the “architect grind” of some 149 EF nibs.

It is quite characteristical and unlike other EF tips I’ve seen.

It belongs to the same pen (early 70s 18C 149) with which the writing line samples in my previous post were made.

 

Quote

Was that [the architect nib] considered something one needed to have?

My educated guess is that at a price tag of 90 German Marks Montblanc could have afforded creating their top notch pen model appeal to several niches of professional business enterpreneur end users, including architects (at least in Europe). Therefore they could have afforded finishing a fraction of their nib tips in such a style. 

🙂

[NoType]

3 hours ago, stoen said:

Perhaps this photo against a darker background can also contribute in helping understand the “architect grind” of some 149 EF nibs.

It is quite characteristical and unlike other EF tips I’ve seen.

It belongs to the same pen (early 70s 18C 149) with which the writing line samples in my previous post were made.

 

My educated guess is that at a price tag of 90 German Marks Montblanc could have afforded creating their top notch pen model appeal to several niches of professional business enterpreneur end users, including architects (at least in Europe). Therefore they could have afforded finishing a fraction of their nib tips in such a style. 

🙂

stoen, this is a great image of the profile of an “architect grind” and is helpful, indeed.  
 

Your supposition of nib specialisation to cater to specific market demands is eminently logical.  Thank you for bringing up this theory.