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Mysterious Mose

Yesterday, September 10, 2021, I went window shopping at FPH.  I've read a lot here in the forum about different pens, but there's nothing like feeling, holding and writing with a pen.  I visited with one limitation -- I would not BUY anything.  Much to my surprise, I honored this limitation.

 

I invite members of the board to comment on any of my impressions.

 

New Pens:

I set out to try out the following: 

  • Pelikan 400, to get a sense of the 400NN,
  • Waterman Carene Amber,
  • Stipula Etruria, and
  • Aurora 88.

 

I like Pelikans; an M805 is the next-to oldest pen I have at about 20 years.  I tried out the 400, medium and fine.  Both were good but $376 is almost as expensive as a new M800 ($608).  The fine M205 Petro-Marbled was smaller, but felt fine.  It is gorgeous.  At $208, I wouldn't mind having that pen.  However, I'm somewhat wary of getting a new Pelikan because of problems the company is currently having.  Also, I seem to recall that it's cartridge / converter, and I would prefer a piston filler.

 

I also like Watermans.  I have three of them - Phileas, Kultur and Expert II.  The new Waterman Carene Amber was terrific.  Even though the nib is supposedly a nail, it wrote smoothly,  I liked the looks and feel of this pen.  If I were to buy a new pen, this would be high on the list.

 

As to the Stipula Etruria, I like Italian pens.  I have a Santini and a Stipula Splash.  Fountain Pen Hospital didn't have any Stipula Etruria's but they did have a Stipula Diplomat.  It was large, but very light.  I didn't like the feel and handling.

 

The salesman discouraged me from getting an Aurora 88.  He said it's overpriced.

 

Used / Vintage

 

All the used pens I looked at were good.  A Parker 51 Aerometric was $250 with a gold cap, $195 chrome cap.  Isn't this a little high?  The salesman showed me a Sheaffer Lifetime Balance from the 30's, $125, and a #2 sized black chased rubber flex pen for $225.  He showed me a Waterman from the 50's, with a gold nib, probably an Emblem.  He also showed me a Pelikan 600 for $395.  That's the same price as a new 400.  Anyway, I want to add to my flock a Pelikan that's different from the 600 - 800 - 1000 line.

 

The salesman warned me that used pens from the Fountain Pen Hospital sell out within a day.

 

So, my plan is that when I'm ready to buy (I'm still awaiting my first stimulus check), I'll go there and see what they have in used pens.

 

Any comments or suggestions?

 

 

Dan Kalish

 

Fountain Pens: Pelikan Souveran M805, Santini Libra Cumberland, Waterman Expert II, Waterman Phileas, Waterman Kultur, Stipula Splash, Sheaffer Sagaris, Sheaffer Prelude, Osmiroid 65, FPR Guru

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brokenclay
59 minutes ago, Mysterious Mose said:

The fine M205 Petro-Marbled was smaller, but felt fine.  It is gorgeous.  At $208, I wouldn't mind having that pen.  However, I'm somewhat wary of getting a new Pelikan because of problems the company is currently having.  Also, I seem to recall that it's cartridge / converter, and I would prefer a piston filler.

The Pelikan M2xx pens are piston fillers. 

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If you are interested in the Pelikan, you might want to check out the sale at Pen Boutique, where the pen is going for considerably less than FPH.

 

Erick

 

Using right now:

Recife Traveler "M" nib running PR Blue Suede

Tibaldi Infrangible "F" nib running PR Infinity Red

Diplomat Excellence A+ "EF" nib running Noodler's Heart of Darkness

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Mysterious Mose
9 minutes ago, langere said:

If you are interested in the Pelikan, you might want to check out the sale at Pen Boutique, where the pen is going for considerably less than FPH.

 

Erick

True -- 11% - 15% less.

 

Model     FPH     Pen Boutique

400         $386    $343

205 P-M $208     $182

800         $608    $511 

 

brokenclay -- It must have been the Waterman Carene that I was thinking of as cartridge / converter. 

 

Dan Kalish

 

Fountain Pens: Pelikan Souveran M805, Santini Libra Cumberland, Waterman Expert II, Waterman Phileas, Waterman Kultur, Stipula Splash, Sheaffer Sagaris, Sheaffer Prelude, Osmiroid 65, FPR Guru

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Bo Bo Olson
1 hour ago, Mysterious Mose said:

The fine M205 Petro-Marbled was smaller, but felt fine.  It is gorgeous.  At $208,

I paid E 135/7 ($160) for one in Germany in my local B&M ....and if you order from Fritz you get it with out the 16-19% VAT tax. Fritz is not my normal B&M but I did order a pen from him.  Many are very happy with him.

A M200 is a piston pen....

They have a cartridge pen, but I don't know which it is, in I don't chase cartridge pens.

German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

 https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,..Bock nib factory.

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 

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Mysterious Mose
48 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

I paid E 135/7 ($160) for one in Germany in my local B&M ....and if you order from Fritz you get it with out the 16-19% VAT tax. Fritz is not my normal B&M but I did order a pen from him.  Many are very happy with him.

A M200 is a piston pen....

They have a cartridge pen, but I don't know which it is, in I don't chase cartridge pens.

Hm.  Fritz-Schimpf has it for 107.20 Euros = $126.61.  However, "This article will be arriving by the end of April 2021"  ???

 

I'll check the other online German dealers I know of:  Fountainfeder,  Penboard and Zeichen-Center Eberling

 

According to the FPH catalog, the "Tradition 200 Collection" is piston filled but the "200 Cartridge Fountain Pen" is cartridge / converter.

Dan Kalish

 

Fountain Pens: Pelikan Souveran M805, Santini Libra Cumberland, Waterman Expert II, Waterman Phileas, Waterman Kultur, Stipula Splash, Sheaffer Sagaris, Sheaffer Prelude, Osmiroid 65, FPR Guru

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brokenclay
3 minutes ago, Mysterious Mose said:

Hm.  Fritz-Schimpf has it for 107.20 Euros = $126.61.  However, "This article will be arriving by the end of April 2021"  ???

I bought mine from Fritz Schimpf in...late April. I don't think website maintenance is an FS strength, but their customer service is excellent.

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Mysterious Mose
1 hour ago, Mysterious Mose said:

I'll check the other online German dealers I know of:  Fountainfeder,  Penboard and Zeichen-Center Eberling

Are there any other online pen dealers besides Fritz-Schmidt, Fountainfeder,  Penboard and Zeichen-Center Eberling.

 

While we're at it are there any online pen dealers in France?  Maybe I can get a good price on a Waterman Carene.

Dan Kalish

 

Fountain Pens: Pelikan Souveran M805, Santini Libra Cumberland, Waterman Expert II, Waterman Phileas, Waterman Kultur, Stipula Splash, Sheaffer Sagaris, Sheaffer Prelude, Osmiroid 65, FPR Guru

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For Pelikan, Niche Pens has been and remains a very reliable source. Very fast shipping to the US, and excellent service.

 

www.pelikanpens.co.uk

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52 minutes ago, markofp said:

For Pelikan, Niche Pens has been and remains a very reliable source. Very fast shipping to the US, and excellent service.

 

www.pelikanpens.co.uk

I'm sure they (and Cult Pens) are both excellent if you're shipping to the US.

 

Here in the UK, they charge £130 for the petrol M205. I can buy the same pen on Amazon for £82 (just over $110) delivered within two days. None of it makes any sense at all any more.

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Mysterious Mose
2 hours ago, mizgeorge said:

I'm sure they (and Cult Pens) are both excellent if you're shipping to the US.

 

Here in the UK, they charge £130 for the petrol M205. I can buy the same pen on Amazon for £82 (just over $110) delivered within two days. None of it makes any sense at all any more.

Is Niche Pens the same as Pure Pens?  Both are sold out of gold nibs.

Dan Kalish

 

Fountain Pens: Pelikan Souveran M805, Santini Libra Cumberland, Waterman Expert II, Waterman Phileas, Waterman Kultur, Stipula Splash, Sheaffer Sagaris, Sheaffer Prelude, Osmiroid 65, FPR Guru

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A Smug Dill
12 hours ago, Mysterious Mose said:

Both were good but $376 is almost as expensive as a new M800 ($608).

 

376 is less than 62% of 608. Does that really count as “almost as expensive as”, since the actual number as a detail obviously matters, even if both may fall into the same broad category of “expensive” or perhaps “more than I would like to pay for a pen”?

 

Anyway, US$376 seems a bit high a price to expect someone to pay out-of-pocket for a Pelikan M400, even for the average American consumer who has an Internet connection. Cult Pens is listing five models of the Pelikan Souverän M400 — including the Tortoiseshell-White — for less than US$230 each right now; and throughout the year there as typically several opportunities to get it at up to 19% less than today's listed price.

 

12 hours ago, Mysterious Mose said:

The fine M205 Petro-Marbled was smaller, but felt fine.  It is gorgeous.  At $208, I wouldn't mind having that pen.

 

Given even consumers who live in the US can get it for less than US$125 delivered (exclusive of whatever tax or duties US authorities may impose at the border), do you still feel you'd be happy to pay US$208 for it, for the ‘privilege’ or pleasure of being able to acquire it in person from a bricks-and-mortar retail outlet?

 

My wife and I have two Pelikan M205 Petrol-Marbled fountain pens between us; the first cost me just under €90, and the second just under €76. However, I didn't order those particular pens from Cult Pens, even though I'm a happy repeat customer and bought several Pelikan fountain pens from it — all without problems, incident or undue delay in delivery.

 

12 hours ago, Mysterious Mose said:

Also, I seem to recall that it's cartridge / converter, and I would prefer a piston filler.

 

Pelikan fountain pens in the Classic line that are cartridge/converter-filled are designated with model numbers P200 and P205:

This fountain pen is also available with gold fittings (M200) and with a cartridge filling mechanism: P200 for the gold version and P205 for the silver model. The M is short for mechanism (as in piston mechanism) and the P is short for Patrone (the German word for cartridge).

 

12 hours ago, Mysterious Mose said:

The salesman discouraged me from getting an Aurora 88.  He said it's overpriced.

 

At that particular bricks-and-mortar pen shop's asking price, that is probably true. I bought my limited edition Aurora 8“88” Giove (aka Jupiter) from Florida-based EndlessPens for a hair over US$400, and padded the order with a handful of heavily discounted Faber-Castell Essentio pens to qualify for free delivery to Australia, which (surprisingly) it sent by DHL. It was one of few independent US retailers with their own online presence (outside of Amazon Marketplace or “eBay stores”) I was happy to give my repeated custom.

 

13 hours ago, Mysterious Mose said:

Any comments or suggestions?

 

Now that you have some idea of the price differences, my first suggestion would be that perhaps you should decide how much of a premium you're prepared to pay, so as to buy from a bricks-and-mortar retail outlet. I imagine most people — myself included — prefer to buy from a local shop, whether it's in the name of supporting local business, getting better or at least face-to-face customer service, having a physical throat to choke should something go wrong, or enjoying consumer law protections in the jurisdiction with which one is most familiar; but everyone has a (different) limit as to how much more one is prepared to pay for that, on top of the retail product itself of which the ‘value’ is the lowest common denominator set by online retailers to whom one has access.

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct for valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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3 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

my first suggestion would be that perhaps you should decide how much of a premium you're prepared to pay, so as to buy from a bricks-and-mortar retail outlet. I imagine most people — myself included — prefer to buy from a local shop, whether it's in the name of supporting local business, getting better or at least face-to-face customer service, having a physical throat to choke should something go wrong, or enjoying consumer law protections in the jurisdiction with which one is most familiar; but everyone has a (different) limit as to how much more one is prepared to pay for that, on top of the retail product itself of which the ‘value’ is the lowest common denominator set by online retailers to whom one has access.

I sell a well respected well known brand of keyboard musical instruments and had a showroom in the Los Angeles area.  In 2008 I began to see the handwriting on the wall.  I would demonstrate thousands of dollars worth of instrument and amplification, spending a couple of hours of my time only to have the customer make an excuse to leave and then evaporate.  I would never see him again but several weeks later the factory would send me the warranty card.  The customer took advantage of my investment and product knowledge and then bought from the lowest priced online retailer who, without any substantive overhead, could sell at a margin that would have bankrupted me.  I got the warranty card (cards...it happened way too often) because I was the legitimate local dealer.  The smartest move I ever made was to not renew my lease and close out that showroom.  I'm still in business with a presence online but all transactions are over the phone and by referral.  It is not what I would prefer but it beats making sales for the lowest bidder online and my net is about the same with far less consternation.  With Amazon and other big box Internet retailers the days of local brick and mortar retail are numbered.

 

Cliff

 

“The only thing most people do better than anyone else is read their own handwriting.”  John Adams

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10 hours ago, Mysterious Mose said:

Is Niche Pens the same as Pure Pens?  Both are sold out of gold nibs.

Yes, same company - Niche is their Pelikan 'arm'. Have you looked at Cult Pens? They often have more nibs in stock than other retailers, though I notice that there does seem to be a bit of a dearth of sizes available anywhere.

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A Smug Dill
1 hour ago, Bristol24 said:

The customer took advantage of my investment and product knowledge and then bought from the lowest priced online retailer who, without any substantive overhead, could sell at a margin that would have bankrupted me. …‹snip›… With Amazon and other big box Internet retailers the days of local brick and mortar retail are numbered.

 

It can happen the other way around, too. There are still items that my wife and I buy from local retail outlets, and I don't just mean food, groceries and medicines. I've stood in Dymocks (which is sorta the Australian equivalent of Barnes and Noble, without quite the scale in spite of being a national chain), looking through what is on its promotional or clearance sale items on display, and checking online on my mobile phone corresponding ink swatches and such product information posted by (reviewers or) other retailers which may or may not be local; frankly I wouldn't trust what the sales staff in the pen department in Dymocks tell me about an ink, but I'd “take advantage of” whoever chose to publish product images, specifications and reviews online, irrespective of whether one or more of those parties are in the business of retail sales of such products.

 

As for the advantage of being able to get our hands on the actual items and securing them on the spot in bricks-and-mortar stores, I bought Pilot Capless pens (on clearance), Rubinato and Monteverde inks (not on clearance, but via PoK's official eBay store, when eBay was offering presumably independent promotional discount to its users who spend a minimum of $X on eligible products at once across any number of sellers, for pick-up of the physical product in-store to avoid delivery fees), and Visconti Dreamtouch leather pen cases (at a mere 10% off the regular price during the store's annual start-of-year sale) from Peters of Kensington, which is a quirky department store in Sydney. I have not seen anyone else stock Rubinato ink, or such low effective prices on Monteverde Noir and Monteverde Gemstone ten-colour gift sets; and, for items such as leather goods (such as the Visconti pen cases) or paperback books, (shoppers who think like my wife and) I would want to eyeball every unit on offer to pick the one that is cleanest with least marks and creases before committing to a purchase, even if it costs us 5% more than ordering from online sellers with no local physical presence, irrespective of how iron-clad or generous the return policy is.

 

I always buy Apple iPads directly from Apple in Australia, when only it offers a 14-day no-questions-asked return policy, and no authorised retailer can really undercut the Apple Store on price by much anyway. Devices such as mobile phones and GPS running watches I buy from authorised retailers locally, because there may be different versions internationally and I want to avoid incorrect settings or problems in updating to future firmware versions, but more importantly protections due the Australian Consumer Law matter more for electronic gadgets that may be more prone to failure 6 to 24 months down the track. Ditto laser printers, fully automatic coffee machines (which aren't cheap!) and such, which are bulky and costly to ship; I'm not sure if Australia Post will even agree to handle such parcels for Joe Consumer who needs to send them back to the retailer for exchange or refund.

 

If I have to name one bricks-and-mortar store (outside of Apple) from whom I'd buy directly, in person, because I appreciate the in-store customer service and do want to “take advantage of” the staff's product knowledge, the first that comes to mind would be the Patagonia flagship store (which, in Sydney CBD, is surrounded by several bricks-and-mortar stores that are also Patagonia stockists). While its price may not be the absolute cheapest for the Houdini running jackets, even when 30%-off sales promotion is in play, I have never seen anyone else that I could trust sell them for substantially cheaper, either online or in-store, overseas or locally, including from Amazon or on eBay.

 

So, I think there is still room for bricks-and-mortar retail for non-essential, non-FMCG products.

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct for valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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The only real pen shop we have here where I live in England is closing and moving online. The pandemic didn't do him any favour. Too bad thoufh as now I can't walk to the shop anymore to try out pens and buy the ones I like. Hope he will keep his prices as low as they are now though 🙂

BTW Cult Pens is a division of W.H. Smith

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On 9/12/2021 at 7:06 AM, A Smug Dill said:

So, I think there is still room for bricks-and-mortar retail for non-essential, non-FMCG products.

When the white porcelain device is clogged and you need a plunger...fast, you can't beat the immediate gratification of a store.  In a local retail business one has personal wealth at risk.  The money at risk must produce a return.  When the margins can no longer support the expense of existing, it's time to pull the plug.  Margins are forced ever downward by the much lower overhead of Internet based retailing which relies more on volume of sales than actual margin per sale.  Products that were once sold by a devoted, knowledgeable group of local retailers become commodities with their perceived value undermined as a result.  Except in exclusively wealthy areas, this will continue to be the case for more esoteric, non-essential products where there is a more limited, special interest market.  It is the reality of the situation.

 

Cliff

 

“The only thing most people do better than anyone else is read their own handwriting.”  John Adams

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Gloucesterman

Based on my experience over many years of dealing with B&M pen stores (and other B&M stores in general) I would strongly encourage buyers to consider negotiating the price of their purchases. Even better, offer CASH rather than a credit card. In many respects, CASH is still king.

 

A while back BC (before covid) I bought a high end FP for 35% off list price and half the local tax (6% down to 3%) by offering cash. Over many years I have also negotiated package deals including paper, ink and other goodies (for free or a major, major discount) if the dealer did not want to to lower their pen price. Negotiating works at many B&M dealers, again especially cash, if you, the buyer, are willing to make an offer.

 

The worst that can happen is that they say "NO" and leave it at that. Oh, and one other IMPORTANT thing to remember, most "clerks" don't have the power or desire to negotiate, so once you have identified what you really want (the bigger the purchase the better) ask to speak with the manager. She or he has the power to do what they want without having to justify the sale to a manager.

 

BTW, that is one of the reasons I totally LOVE going to pen shows!!!

 

Finally, the process of negotiating also works with many/most independently owned stores. Keep in mind that using a credit card automatically cost a vendor 3-5% right off the top of a sale plus the fact that the sales tax is computed on total sale price not what the dealer receives (net) after all fees from the sale.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

“Don't put off till tomorrow what you can do today, because if you do it today and like it, you can do again tomorrow!”

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A Smug Dill
10 hours ago, Bristol24 said:

In a local retail business one has personal wealth at risk.  The money at risk must produce a return.

 

No sheen!

 

10 hours ago, Bristol24 said:

Except in exclusively wealthy areas, this will continue to be the case for more esoteric, non-essential products where there is a more limited, special interest market.  It is the reality of the situation.

 

I have a feeling you'll keep shifting your goalposts or change the scope of applicability of your earlier assertion to suit your narrative. I simply don't think Montblanc, Apple, Patagonia, adidas, etc. are going to shut their brick-and-mortar flagship stores in capital cities around the world any time soon, or that independent brick-and-mortar department stores as well as specialist retailers for pens and ink, outdoor and hiking gear, sporting equipment, etc. will stop stocking those brands any time soon.

 

Residents in CBDs tend to be above average in spending power, but they are not even close to qualifying as “exclusively wealthy areas”; and I'd say Montblanc pens and leather goods, Apple iPads and wireless earbuds, Patagonia outdoor apparel and travel gear, etc. are pretty non-essential and subject to a lot of competition; their “special interest market” is actually the brands' fan bases and the people their fans can influence by word-of-mouth, peer pressure, reviews and discussion in social media, etc.

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct for valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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