149 Friction Piston Stiff

[bunnspecial]

I recently acquired what I think is a late 60s or maybe early 70s 149(tri-tone 18C nib, "narrow" flare on the end of the barrel, round ebonite groove face) and as best as I can tell it has the friction fit piston mechanism.

 

The piston works fine, but the pen came to me with a bunch of dried ink in it that I was able to clean out, and the piston seems stiff. In fact, it's stiff enough that I'm afraid I'm putting a lot of stress on the spindle or other parts by operating it.

 

I've felt similar stickiness on the 12/14/22/24 pens, and I've always fixed it by removing the nib/section and putting a tiny amount of grease on the piston seal.

 

Of course, removing the nib on a 149 needs a nib tool that I don't have(I should get one, I realize) but I often read recommendations that piston servicing is best done by removing the piston(makes sense to me).

The issue, of course, is that I can't find any real discussion on removing the friction fit piston on these pens aside from "it's difficult."

 

This pen is quite nice and barely used, so it's well worth saving IMO. With that in mind, I'm wondering which of these I should do:

 

1. Send it to MB for service-not really an option I want because I understand that I'd likely end up with more or less a new pen fitted with the old nib, and I bought this for unmolested original features

 

2. Find an independent who is experienced with this age of pens

 

3. Remove the nib and grease the piston from the nib end

 

4. Figure out how to remove the friction piston

 

What do you all suggest?

[Wolverine1]

I would send it to an person who has experience handling 149 pens. A lot of them are our friends on this MontBlanc forum.

[Michael R.]

Maybe my favorite 149 variation!

 

Don‘t send it to Montblanc. They will replace with a new pen.

 

Unscrewing the nib unit to add a liitle bit of vaseline will not hurt. In case this dors not work you can still send to someone knowing how to handle the friction filler units. It is possible to remove but involves some heat and force. Lot‘s of chances to damage if not experienced.

 

good luck and cheers

 

Michael 

[bunnspecial]

1 hour ago, Michael R. said:

Maybe my favorite 149 variation!

 

Don‘t send it to Montblanc. They will replace with a new pen.

 

Unscrewing the nib unit to add a liitle bit of vaseline will not hurt. In case this dors not work you can still send to someone knowing how to handle the friction filler units. It is possible to remove but involves some heat and force. Lot‘s of chances to damage if not experienced.

 

good luck and cheers

 

Michael 

 

Thanks, and yes I will not be sending to MB.

 

Don't try to do it myself seems to be the piston consensus.

 

As to your advice on Vaseline-what about Silicone grease instead? It's what I generally use on other pistons, including the 12/14 etc(and I've greased nearly every one I've owned).

[Michael R.]

Many seem to use some sort of silicon without problems.

 

Personally I follow the advice of one THE Montblanc experts, top restorer and ex-Montblanc employee to use vaseline. That‘s what Montblanc uses and what‘s mentioned in the Montblanc factory service SOP.
 

Silicon can cause stress cracks on PMMA but this seems rare.

 

I‘ve posted on this topic a couple of times but got lots of disrespect and even hateful personal messages for this. So maybe that‘s like asking what oil to use best in a car forum 😉; hopefully this thread will not turn this way.

 

Cheers

 

Michael

[Ron Z]

I strongly disagree with the suggestion that you remove the nib to grease the piston.  Simply pulling on the nib and feed can damage either, or both, especially the latest plastic ones.   MB uses a special silicone rubber compound to seal the nib unit and section threads, and  you need to reseal if you disturb this.  On many of the pens, the "section" is in fact a tube, held captive between the front of the nib collar, and the barrel.  The silicone compound likes to bunch up, and can crack this tube if you aren't careful.  It can do it even if you are careful.

 

I know that it takes a special tool, but you are far better off taking the piston unit out to lubricate the seal.  When you put it back together, tighten the  bushing snug, but not tight.   One tool pays for itself the first time you use it.

 

As for the lubricant, use silicone grease.  There's a thread around here somewhere where this gets discussed.  The comment in the note from MB about causing cracks is that it "may" cause cracks - MB had a problem, wasn't sure but blamed it on the silicone grease.   My advice is based on 3 things - comments by a friend who teaches chemistry, who has looked at the data for Molykote 111, who says silicone grease is fine.  (His comments are quoted in the thread)  Second is the recommendation by the best independent MB mechanic I know, and third, years of experience. 

 

The silicone grease that I use is Dow-Corning Molykote 111.  This is a very good silicone grease, designed for 0-rings and seals, designed not to wash off (important with ink) that the manufacturer says is safe for "most" plastics.  The "most" comment I take to be the "lawyer lips*" kind of hedging because there may be some random plastic out there that that won't like it.  But I haven't seen that with MB resins.  The only thing that I know (and boy, do I know) that it doesn't like is cyclohexane, which caused the piece I was testing to immediately fall apart.  MB resin resists reaction with any of the other solvents I've tried.  I have it in 1/8 oz jars.  Even as much as I  use, I refill my 1/8 oz jar about once a year.

 

*lawyer lips.  The colloquial term for the little tabs on the end of the front edge of the forks of your bicycle to keep the wheel from falling off, as if you wouldn't notice that axle isn't loose enough to  fall off.  Their primary purpose I think, is to make it a real pain to get the wheel off of the bike when you want it off...  and to protect the manufacturer from idiots.

[Michael R.]

59 minutes ago, Ron Z said:

I strongly disagree with the suggestion that you remove the nib to grease the piston.  Simply pulling on the nib and feed can damage either, or both, especially the latest plastic ones.   MB uses a special silicone rubber compound to seal the nib unit and section threads, and  you need to reseal if you disturb this.  On many of the pens, the "section" is in fact a tube, held captive between the front of the nib collar, and the barrel.  The silicone compound likes to bunch up, and can crack this tube if you aren't careful.  It can do it even if you are careful.

 

I know that it takes a special tool, but you are far better off taking the piston unit out to lubricate the seal.  When you put it back together, tighten the  bushing snug, but not tight.   One tool pays for itself the first time you use it.

 

The earliest resin 149 pens still used a different construction before Montblanc switched to the assembly in the early 1980s you describe.

This is the nib unit from an early 1960s pen:

p1280566_29998041338_o by pensninks, auf Flickr

 

p1280529_28931252137_o by pensninks, auf Flickr

You can view more different parts here:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/81645329@N08/albums/72157677440553238

 

This should be the construction you have in mind (from the 1980s on; different from the 60s-70s):

P1530185 by pensninks, auf Flickr

 

more here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/81645329@N08/albums/72157714131215607

 

 

 

Quote

I know that it takes a special tool, but you are far better off taking the piston unit out to lubricate the seal.  When you put it back together, tighten the  bushing snug, but not tight.   One tool pays for itself the first time you use it.

 

Also the friction piston filler pens from the early 1960s work differently. It is not a screw-in unit but - like the name suggests - a friction fit unit.

See comparison here:

p1280560_43150175174_o by pensninks, auf Flickr

 

It is a more delicate procedure to remove compared to the screw-in filler units of later models. Also barrel thickness is much thinner on the friction fit pens:

p1280549_42963486315_o by pensninks, auf Flickr

 

(later screw-in unit barrel in the left; friction filler on the right).

Hope this helps 

 

Michael
 

 

 

[Michael R.]

and for completeness:

 

Bildschirmfoto 2021-06-29 um 22.00.41 by pensninks, auf Flickr

 

 

[Ron Z]

I still disagree with the suggestion that the nib unit be removed.  I've had too many come through that are damaged.

 

You still need (or should use) a tool to remove the nib on the earlier units.   I also don't find removing the slip fit piston units to be any more difficult than the early Pelikan fillers - before the snap fit or threaded bushings were introduced. 

[Michael R.]

To remove the friction filler unit Montblanc used a tool like this:

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/260612-help-how-to-unscrew-mb-149-piston-filler/?do=findComment&comment=2896300

 

 

It is a much more delicate procedure than unscrewing the newer screw-in piston filler units which require a much more simple tool. Most people don't have a tool like this and alternative ways are much more risky on breaking stuff. And most parts of friction fill 149 pens (like the barrel and filler units) do not interchange with later pens.
 

[Michael R.]

6 minutes ago, Ron Z said:

But you still need, or should use, the tool to unscrew the nib, don't you?

 

Of course the grooves on the little black bushing strongly suggest to use a tool similar to later Montblanc units.

 

From my experience: over 95% of the 1980s to 2000s Montblanc nib units require a "nib tool" to safely remove the nib unit. But much less than 50 % of the older pens require such tool. When clean and not stuck most nib units unscrew from the barrel by hand on the early 149 pens (1960s-70s); not as easy as lets say modern Pelikan nib units but similar. 

 

Also Montblanc started using self-sealing bushings again after the 2000s (pictured on the far right; self-sealing ring missing on the image) which again unscrew much easier compared the the 1980s models:

P1530235 by pensninks, auf Flickr

 

But yes; without practice there is always a risk removing the nib unit. I like to unscrew the nib unit instead of pulling nib and feed only.

But also the risk for damage is higher on a friction filler pen when trying to remove the piston unit compare to removing the nib unit.

 

I still disagree with you. 

 

When discussion those Montblanc pens I'm used to that 😉

 

 

[Michael R.]

22 minutes ago, Ron Z said:

I still disagree with the suggestion that the nib unit be removed.  I've had too many come through that are damaged.

 

You still need (or should use) a tool to remove the nib on the earlier units.   I also don't find removing the slip fit piston units to be any more difficult than the early Pelikan fillers - before the snap fit or threaded bushings were introduced. 

Ooops, sorry ... my reply was too quick before you edited your post.

Always better to have it handled by someone with experience! I've seen damaged nib units also but never had a problem or damage done when doing it myself. 

That's good to hear! I don't have much experience taking apart Pelikan pens. I'm not trying to persuade anybody. Just sharing my experience removing friction fill units from Montblanc pens which I personally find more challenging than taking apart screw-in units.

I'll happily leave it to the OP to decide how to proceed. In the end it is his pen and worth having restored. The early 149 pens are great and the tri-tone 14C or 18C (export model) nibs are wonderful.


Cheers from Germany

Michael

 

[Michael R.]

@Ron Z: almost forgot to ask: what are your tips to remove the friction fit fillers on those Montblancs? I have not managed to remove those whithout removing the nib unit first to have some support from the inside. I know this may risk damaging the piston/piston rod itself but those parts are easier to find for replacement than a replacement barrel.

[Ron Z]

I won't say that I like the friction fit fillers or that there isn't risk involved.  Any pen repair comes with that.  But there's a reason why the production run of the design was relatively short lived I think.  

 

A good soak of the back end in water, over night, is necessary, then warming the barrel and then pulling straight out.  Don't skip the soak or gentle heat.

 

 

 

[bunnspecial]

Well, issue settled for me.

 

I soaked it overnight and loosened up a bunch of old ink, and from there it was easy to screw the nib unit out by hand-nearly Pelikan easy.

 

The nib unit got a trip through a soapy water ultrasonic bath while out, and after using cotton swabs to really get the barrel clean and dry I put a thin smear of Dow-Corning High Vacuum Grease(the purest silicone grease I know of, and what I've always used on pens) on the piston face with a Q-tip. The piston is now as smooth as all my other 149s and 146s, and the pen writes beautifully.

[Uncial]

2 hours ago, Michael R. said:

and for completeness:

 

Bildschirmfoto 2021-06-29 um 22.00.41 by pensninks, auf Flickr

 

 

 

Thank you for this. I've always worried that using petroleum jelly would produce a horrible cloudy bloom on the resin

[Frank C]

Thank you for posting this. I've always been too scared to take apart my Montblanc Pens. Now I'm really too scared. 

[Michael R.]

20 hours ago, Ron Z said:

I won't say that I like the friction fit fillers or that there isn't risk involved.  Any pen repair comes with that.  But there's a reason why the production run of the design was relatively short lived I think.  

 

A good soak of the back end in water, over night, is necessary, then warming the barrel and then pulling straight out.  Don't skip the soak or gentle heat.

 

 

 

 

Sounds like it really went well! Mine were more stubborn. Maybe I also was too careful with the heat.

 

20 hours ago, bunnspecial said:

Well, issue settled for me.

 

I soaked it overnight and loosened up a bunch of old ink, and from there it was easy to screw the nib unit out by hand-nearly Pelikan easy.

 

The nib unit got a trip through a soapy water ultrasonic bath while out, and after using cotton swabs to really get the barrel clean and dry I put a thin smear of Dow-Corning High Vacuum Grease(the purest silicone grease I know of, and what I've always used on pens) on the piston face with a Q-tip. The piston is now as smooth as all my other 149s and 146s, and the pen writes beautifully.

 

Perfect! Enjoy in good health 🙂

 

19 hours ago, Uncial said:

 

Thank you for this. I've always worried that using petroleum jelly would produce a horrible cloudy bloom on the resin

 

Maybe there is a different understand of vaseline in different parts of the world. Vaseline (brand name) or petroleum jelly is a more or less defined fraction deriving from mineral oil. So not all petroleum jellies share the same chemical composition. I cannot vouch for every type of petroleum jelly. I'm using medical or cosmetic care grade vaseline like it is available in German drug stores or pharmacies. It is very important that it does not contain any other substances like preserving or antibacterial agents, fragrances or similar! So the purity / grade of refining is important.

Cheers

 

Michael

 

 

 

[bunnspecial]

In the US, "petroleum jelly" really does just contain hydrocarbons. There are some alternative products that have other things in them-i.e. petroleum jelly with camphor, but they're sold under totally different names and there's no confusing them.

 

I can look at Vaseline brand tomorrow when I go into work by GC-MS, but I'd be shocked to find anything else in it.

 

With that said, petroleum jelly can have a tendency for the lighter fractions to volatilize over time, and leave you with pretty...stubborn...residue. In the past, I've spent a lot of time playing with Lionel trains. The Lionel branded lubricant that use to come with them was nothing but petroleum jelly, and that was what the service manuals recommended for things like gears and the ends of the motor. I've spent a LOT of time soaking in naptha and chipping this stuff out. Now, white lithium grease is preferred, and is what I've used.

 

In addition, I collect and work on American pocket watches. Watch lubricants were traditionally whale oil, although synthetics took over in a big way in the 1950s. That aside, though, period references, and even books published up into the 50s and 60s, often recommended that the mainspring be lubricated with petroleum jelly. I've seen springs that basically were "dead" in the barrel because the lubricant had gummed up so badly. Generally I replace them, or at least up until the price went nuts on springs, but whether I cleaned and reused them or installed new(either NOS or modern) I use a modern synthetic grease made specifically for springs and other high-pressure areas.

[Michael R.]

@bunnspecial: great info!

Most likely you will find MOSH (> C35) and maybe up to 1 % MOAH - even in white vaseline. Good to see another chemist knowing his stuff 🙂

I work in a food testing lab and hydrocarbons we find would be unwanted contamination (we use LC/GC-FID but cannot further differentiate MOSH and MOSH analoga).

 

Cheers

 

Michael