Which Ink Lines Are Overpriced?

[Arkanabar]

On 6/30/2021 at 2:21 PM, Aether said:

<snip>  I still believe that an industry average price can be calculated, i.e. on average ink for fountain pens costs 20c per 1ml, and go from there.<snip>

@Aether -- I wouldn't be too sure of that, unless it is per country.  For example, the regulatory environment of, say, France or England is likely to impose a lot of costs related to worker safety, unemployment insurance, minimum wage, and health care that would not apply in, say, India or the People's Republic of China.  And these costs would be applied at each point in the supply chain.

On 7/3/2021 at 10:41 AM, Bristol24 said:

The saying, "you get what you pay for" is generally true but not always.  In purchasing a car or a fountain pen, there are the physical, objective qualities that can be seen and experienced.  If the workmanship and performance exceed expectations for the price paid, it is considered a bargain...a good deal.  If, however the workmanship and quality prove to be lacking for the higher price paid, then one could say it was overpriced.  Inks, however, are far more subjective.  Would 60ml of Parker Quink Blue Black in a cut crystal bottle be overpriced at $50?  Packaging and market placement have a profound impact on perceived value and there are no doubt some manufacturers that might snicker a little on the way to the bank.  A non-fountain pen example:  As a couple that sails extensively, we are always interested in finding cleaning products that work.  We were introduced to a product that would clean the grunge off of dock fenders like magic.  It cost $30 a gallon at the marine supply store.  We bit the bullet and bought a gallon which we discovered was not going to last very long as we found more and more uses for the product. The next time we were at Home Depot we ventured over to the cleaning supplies and there was the same product for $9.95!  The bottle looked the same and the product smelled the same but there wasn't a picture of a sailboat on the bottle.  Dock fender grunge being stubbornly hard to remove, we didn't want to short change ourselves so I called the company to ask what the difference was between their marine product and their standard product.  The answer:  None except the graphics on the bottle.

 

Cliff

My dad would turn that around:  "You pay for what you get."  So when you buy MontBlanc, you pay for the white star and all its marketing hype (which apparently only adds to the price when it's pens or ink, not their watches or other "luxury lifestyle goods").  When you buy a Subaru, you pay for full time all wheel drive and a flat four (and their charitable giving) whether those matter to you or not.  And likewise the Louis Vuitton lifetime guarantee (I have an aunt who has a purse they've rebuilt for her at least a couple times), or that Rolex crown logo, or what have you.  For many people, those add value.  For those with a more utilitarian approach, they may not.

 

Regardless, conspicuous consumption has been part of human status-seeking for at least centuries, and probably from the beginning of civilization and trade -- even among colonial-era American Quakers whose doctrines eschewed the sort of ornamentation in which it was most often expressed.

[Dione]

1 hour ago, Karmachanic said:

 

Which still brings them in range of the one fifth of the price that you won't pay, no?

True. For me it's overpriced so I wouldn't buy it anyway.

[inkstainedruth]

13 hours ago, bunnspecial said:

It's not really comparable since it's a discontinued/desireable ink, but let's not talk about how much I paid for my bottle of Penman Sapphire. I'm up to 4 of 5 Penman colors now(I need Ruby) and I think that my total price for my bottles of Ebony+Mocha+Emerald(granted the Emerald only ~50% full) were not much more than the single bottle of Sapphire.

The year I managed to get my husband to come with me to the Triangle Pen Show (it was the weekend of our anniversary), one vendor had a bottle of PPS for sale, and my husband offered to buy it for me.  At $125 US, I declined....  Especially since for only five bucks less (including buyer's premium) I got a UK-made Parker 51 (Navy Gray Aero) with an OB nib in the Saturday night auction, after buying a Midnight Blue Aero earlier in the day.  

Afte all -- I don't want him to actually BELIEVE the stuff he tells people about how I used to collect pens but now collect ink, now do I? 

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[A Smug Dill]

13 hours ago, bunnspecial said:

It's not really comparable since it's a discontinued/desireable ink, but let's not talk about how much I paid for my bottle of Penman Sapphire.

 

Oh, but compared to what exactly? It's still just ink, and the question was asked by the O.P. in the present tense. A bottle of ink that used to sell for A$15 (I vaguely recall that was the price I paid, before the turn of the century, in a local department store) and now lists on eBay for (I have no idea, and am just guessing here) US$75 “Buy It Now” would make it overpriced today, no? If it extends to the entire product line, then I think it's fair to say Parker Penman inks are overpriced.

[RJS]

Discontinued inks are a different subject almost... they're like any collectible now. 

[bunnspecial]

33 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Oh, but compared to what exactly? It's still just ink, and the question was asked by the O.P. in the present tense. A bottle of ink that used to sell for A$15 (I vaguely recall that was the price I paid, before the turn of the century, in a local department store) and now lists on eBay for (I have no idea, and am just guessing here) US$75 “Buy It Now” would make it overpriced today, no? If it extends to the entire product line, then I think it's fair to say Parker Penman inks are overpriced.

 

Well, yes, fair enough point. These are long-discontinued inks, but they are still available on Ebay without much trouble. Ebony and Mocha are virtually always available in varying fill amounts. Sapphire will usually come up every 1-2 weeks, although you may have to wait a bit and prices north of $100USD are normal. Emerald and Ruby are the tougher ones. There's a bottle of Ruby now for $90 BIN that's been there a few weeks. In general, though, in watching these inks Emerald and Ruby seem to come up for sale at least once or twice a month.

 

For reference, I paid a bit under $100USD for Sapphire(full bottle). I've seen $75-125 as typical. My bottle of mocha, 90%, was $37 on Ebay, and an ~80% bottle of Ebony from a private sell here I think was $35 as part of a larger lot. I just paid $50 inc. shipping for a lot of a 50% bottle of Ebony and 30% bottle of Emerald plus I'm guessing a contemporary bottle of 75% Quink Perm. Blue(SolvX). I thought that was reasonable.

 

Sapphire is expensive, and one of the elusive things in multiple threads here has been a 100% match for the shading, sheen, and saturation of Sapphire in particular. Several inks match two of those three. The closest I've come is Scribe Technical Consulting Indigo, which is sold by the former Parker "Ink Chemist"(that was his title-and an awesome guy who was kind enough to spend an hour on Zoom for me to pick his brain back in May) and is described as "reminiscent" of the Penman inks(he sells all 5 colors for $25/50mL in a nice square glass bottle). Scribe Indigo is the closest I've seen between often-suggested matches like PR American Blue, PR DC Supershow, Iroshizoku Asa-Gao, and Diamine Oxford Blue. To my eye American Blue is closest of those, but Scribe Indigo basically nails it aside from being somewhat less saturated. Is the original worth it? Probably not as there are other great blues, but there's still nothing like it and I'm glad I have a bottle and don't regret buying.

[inkstainedruth]

Someone did a side-by-side comparison a couple of years ago, and posted the images, and Monteverde Horizon Blue seemed to be a pretty close match to PPS.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

ETA: At least as far as color went, anyway.  Behavior or longevity between the two inks is something I couldn't say about.

[sirgilbert357]

On 7/4/2021 at 3:49 PM, inkstainedruth said:

Someone did a side-by-side comparison a couple of years ago, and posted the images, and Monteverde Horizon Blue seemed to be a pretty close match to PPS.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

ETA: At least as far as color went, anyway.  Behavior or longevity between the two inks is something I couldn't say about.

 

On paper, I would agree Horizon Blue gets close. But it doesn't have the flow or the feel (how PPS lubes the nib as it goes down) of PPS.

 

A better match, in my experience, is Sailor Bung Box Hatsukoi (aka First Love/Sapphire). When I used it side by side with my PPS, I couldn't tell *much* of a difference after they dried. And the Sailor ink flowed better and smoother when writing. The only thing the PPS did better than Hatsukoi out of the pens I tried them both with was shade. It was only minimally better too...

 

Having said that, the last bottle of Hatsukoi I bought was 45 or 50 bucks. So it's not exactly cheap...if you can get what you want out of Horizon Blue, definitely go that route...its also WAY easier to clean out of a pen than Hatsukoi.

[bunnspecial]

Here's a quick review I threw together a while back of Scribe TC Indigo vs. Penman Sapphire in two similar pens

 

First page is a swab comparison of all the Scribe colors next to the Penman colors I have. I've since acquired Ebony and Emerald, so I need to re-do this. I'd like to actually review all of the inks next to their companion Penman inks, but need to get a bottle of Ruby first

 

[Uncial]

 Maybe it was unique to the sample I used but I found PPS to be quite a terrible ink. The feathering I could cope with but the bleed through was annoying but I couldn't forgive the terrible flow and tendency to dry out. In all honesty I found it almost unusable. 

 

Putting it side by side with Monteverde HB I couldn't tell the difference at all. HB lacks a little lubrication on the nib, but its not a dry ink.

[bayindirh]

On 6/29/2021 at 3:54 PM, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

I assume MB inks are, but I've never really priced them out

 

My father used MB Blue exclusively on his fountain pen (he's alive and well. Just not using that particular pen anymore). One day I wondered and got a modern MB Royal Blue and this is the conversation we had:

 

Me: I got this MB Royal Blue, and oh, it writes so smooth and wet, but behaves so well at the same time. Is that even possible?

Dad: See? MB's inks are really exceptional, aren't they?

 

Their normal (so-called shoe bottled) inks are not that expensive per ml, especially when the saturation and behavior is factored in. But their named inks in 30 ml square bottles are just expensive.

[agentdaffy007]

I purchased a new MB 149 O3B. I loaded the pen recently with the MB Royal Blue and wow, that ink is just a magnificent ink. Hardly any bleedthrough on cheap paper. Can't wait to load the same pen with Parker Penman Sapphire and Monteverde Horizon Blue to see the difference.

[amberleadavis]

11 hours ago, agentdaffy007 said:

I purchased a new MB 149 O3B. I loaded the pen recently with the MB Royal Blue and wow, that ink is just a magnificent ink. Hardly any bleedthrough on cheap paper. Can't wait to load the same pen with Parker Penman Sapphire and Monteverde Horizon Blue to see the difference.

 

We would love to see it in action.  I think the o3b nib is amazing.

[gyasko]

On 7/4/2021 at 10:55 AM, Arkanabar said:

Regardless, conspicuous consumption has been part of human status-seeking for at least centuries, and probably from the beginning of civilization and trade -- even among colonial-era American Quakers whose doctrines eschewed the sort of ornamentation in which it was most often expressed.

 

 

Veblen, who coined the term, goes through a pre-history of conspicuous consumption, but it is just that, a pre-history.  Full blown conspicuous consumption had to wait for  capitalist property relations.

 

At any rate, i’m not sure use of a niche ink really qualifies as conspicuous.  Even a fountain pen nerd such as myself cannot distinguish expensive, recherché ink A from run of the mill ink B with any certainty.  Was some odd shade a private experiment or did someone go to an ink blending boutique?   Not to mention the prices, which are higher than everyday ink, but nowhere near the level of a fur coat,  luxury car or big house with a fancy address.  

[DrDebG]

This may seem off subject, but stick with me here. 

 

I travel a great deal, and have been doing so for the last 35 years.  I used to buy the least expensive luggage I could find because I just couldn't understanding why someone would pay $300 for a piece of luggage when you could buy the same functional item for $100.  And each year, I would purchase a new piece of luggage because the old luggage fell apart.  

 

About 15 years ago, after a disasterous luggage malfunction, my husband suggested as gently as he could that I should consider buying something better that would last.  "What would you suggest?" I asked.  He said, "I've been doing some research and I think you should forget the softsided luggage and buy polycarbonate."  After more research, I purchased 3 pieces of polycarbonate luggage designed and made in Germany.  I purchased the three pieces for close to $1,000.00.  After 15 years, two of my pieces of luggage have been around the world several times, and have logged well over a million air miles and countless driving miles.  And I have never replaced a wheel, lost a luggage strap, or had to have something repaired.  They function as well today as they did the day I bought them.  Purchasing them has saved me money in the long run, but have given me great piece of mind. 

 

What does this have to do with ink?  Aside from the aesthetic draw, finding an ink that works well for you and your pens - regardless of the price - is well worth the money you spend for it.  You know that you can trust the ink to provide reliable results for you every time.   The alternative is to subject yourself and your pens to endless frustration trying to find the cheapest ink that will give substandard results.   

 

For me, my "standard" inks include some of Montblanc's standard inks, many of the Pilot Iroshizuku inks, and the Sailor Manyo inks.  These work well for me and my pens, and I can trust the results.  

 

But we are also forgetting a very important part of this equation - paper.  I have the luxury of using good fountain pen friendly paper for most of needs.  If I had to write on junk paper all the time, my ink selection would likely be adjusted accordingly.  

 

 

[peroride]

On 6/29/2021 at 9:19 PM, PithyProlix said:

The ink you don't use (or gift to someone, etc.) is worth nothing

 

This! Excellent point 👍 There is more to cost than just money 🤑

 

Inks I consider overpriced in hindsight are ones that have fallen to disuse, screw your pen/person/home over or just used to get rid of it (on cheap pens and paper). 

 

At the time, I thought it was a good FOMO idea to buy.🙄

 

You know those foolish impulsive new mauve violet chromochanging hotness on sale at the pen show or super sheeners glitter bombs.  Then you try them out and meh or worst the ink is high maintenance, stains precious resin, or stains indelible all over the place: public professional body parts, shirts, kitchen towels, hardwood flooring 🤮

 

What is the price of this cost? For me, definitely more that the initial price of the ink.

 

As for limited editions/fancy pants marketed inks, to each their own. I still have a unopened bottle of Sailor's $ailor ready at hand when debut it in my very very very last Sailor pen. 😇

[bayindirh]

13 hours ago, DrDebG said:

If I had to write on junk paper all the time, my ink selection would likely be adjusted accordingly.

 

The thing is, Montblanc's most inks, Parker and countless high quality (yet sometimes boring) inks work wonderful on cheap paper. I recently discovered GvFC Royal Blue. That's a bright, saturated, magnificent washable blue ink, and works great on cheap paper.

 

What I'm trying to say is, most of the luxury inks behave extremely well on cheap paper too.

 

On a side note, today I had my first pen accident in 10+ years, and having my pen filled with a washable ink saved a lot of items. I decided that, my pocket pens will only carry washable ink from now on. Permanents and cellulose reactives will live on my desk for the foreseeable future.

[RJS]

Here's a good example of an ink line that's unnecessarily overpriced in Europe: Pilot Blue-Black/Blue/Black/Red. Only officially sold by Pilot in cartridge form in this continent for some odd reason, with imports currently starting at about £15 for the little bottles. In China and Japan the 30ml bottles are easily found and cost about £2 in bricks and mortar stores, and it is the go to brand for school children.

 

Edit: I presume it is because they want us to buy the fancy line, and only associate Pilot with high end ink. The Iroshizuku inks were about £7.50 when I was in Japan, and £30 retail price in the UK.

[DrDebG]

11 minutes ago, bayindirh said:

 

The thing is, Montblanc's most inks, Parker and countless high quality (yet sometimes boring) inks work wonderful on cheap paper. I recently discovered GvFC Royal Blue. That's a bright, saturated, magnificent washable blue ink, and works great on cheap paper.

 

What I'm trying to say is, most of the luxury inks behave extremely well on cheap paper too.

 

On a side note, today I had my first pen accident in 10+ years, and having my pen filled with a washable ink saved a lot of items. I decided that, my pocket pens will only carry washable ink from now on. Permanents and cellulose reactives will live on my desk for the foreseeable future.

 

Agreed - many of the "high quality" inks do very well on all types of paper.  And yes, GvFC Royal Blue (and Cobalt Blue and Hazelnut Brown) are also in my repetoire of preferred inks although they are a bit drier than my others.  

 

I have learned not to put my pens in my pockets.  When I need to carry a pen on me, I have a pen sleeve that fits around my neck.  But I too have learned to only "carry" washable inks (although even these can stain).  Most of the time I keep my pens in a pen case, or when I am at home, they are stored in my pen box.  

[PAKMAN]

Sold 6 bottles of Sapphire for $75 each back 6 years ago. Still have two bottles of Sapphire and one Mocha