Stubbies Improve Handwriting - Why?

[Rroberrt]

Why do so many people, (including myself) find that switching to a stub improves their handwriting - sometimes drastically.

 

With a mono-line pen my handwriting has always been a forehand/backhand immature scrawl.  Not that I wasn’t interested; still owning a couple of fine Parkers from High School in the Forties, (a Duofold  and a Silver 75) and trying in vain, to make nice with them. 

 

A year ago I discovered online the underworld of fountain pens, especially stubbies, and today after much practice (and many pens), I sport  a handy CI (sort of) that gets - can’t believe it - compliments.  Yes, practice counts but from the moment  that Lamy touched paper, my writing is improving.  And I have read of people on this very forum who feel the same way.

 

Is it magic? No but maybe someone can help me understand.

[Karmachanic]

I'm not sure a stub nib will improve ones handwriting, but it will dcertainly add character due to line variation. This might, initially, encourage one to write a bit more carefully.

[Rroberrt]

Thank you for taking the trouble to respond. I appreciate your doubting, and can personally attest to your, “...writing more carefully...” thought. However I do believe that there is a little more to the improvement in my case and it is simply due to the slight directional feedback (both by feel, and visually) from the straight edge of the nib.

 

This morning I inked up my old favorite Parker ‘51. My writing  has improved, even in mono-line, (due no doubt to the hours of practice lately), but the page could not compare.  

 

 

[brokenclay]

Probably what you are calling "directional feedback" - when I'm writing with a stub, the orientation of the edge functions as a sort of guardrail for my handwriting, and I don't wander all over the place aimlessly. 

[Rroberrt]

“Guardrail”, yes! I think we are talking the same sort of thing, which I notice more on the ubiquitous 1.1 mm, than with tips of less than 1.0 mm.

 

It is amazing just how sensitive our fingers are. As an engine engineer-automotive I spent a lot of time measuring components.  In certain circumstances your finger-tips could detect defects of under  three-thousandths of an inch.

 

So it should not surprise me that my ‘tripod’ can sense things at the tip of the nib. 

 

In the same way my eyes no doubt can tell from the thickness of the down-stroke, whether or not the tip is sitting square. Not possible with a mono-line.

 

[A Smug Dill]

7 hours ago, Rroberrt said:

However I do believe that there is a little more to the improvement in my case and it is simply due to the slight directional feedback (both by feel, and visually) from the straight edge of the nib.

 

There is handwriting as skill, and then there is handwriting as output captured on a physical artefact.

 

If you're talking about the latter, then you must have (consciously or unconsciously, with or without being able to articulate) a framework for making an aesthetic evaluation of marks on paper that form words; and using the right tool(s) will of course make producing aesthetically pleasing marks more likely and/or easier. Trying to produce writing in copperplate script without a flexible pointed nib, or Diva script without a broad-edged nib, or Ashley script without a round-tipped nib would be difficult and counterproductive.

 

If you're talking about the former, stub nibs and broad-edged nibs are not the only nibs that will provide kinaesthetic feedback to allow the user to have more precise control of the pen's movements. Try a Sailor H-F nib or Aurora (gold) F nib some time.

[Rroberrt]

“Kinesthetic Feedback”, “Guardrail”, or “Directional Feedback”. - All (I think) expressions of the same thing. A phenomenon unusual in this poor mind’s understanding.

 

Thank you from Down Under, the pens sound interesting and I will pursue these two leads as funds permit. But in the meantime, could I test your patience by asking what exactly is unique about these two nibs? - and how does that translate to hand-writing?

[JackJ]

I don't have an answer to your question, but can testify to the phenomenon.  I've recently been acquiring a number of fountain pens, and have a goal of methodically improving my mostly illegible scrawl.  But my two stub pens do facilitate me making, with no concious extra effort, text that borders on "appealing and readable" rather than "ugly and obscure."  More stubs are in my future.

[Paul-in-SF]

I have an oblique medium nib ground to italic and it has a very specific orientation it has to be to the paper for it to write smoothly, without scratching. It gives instant feedback if I wobble or vary at all -- in the correct position it writes like buttah, in any other position it's like trying to write with an angry cat (hyperbole alert). So not only do I have to slow down my hand movements when writing with it, I also learn a particular hand position for that pen. I find that, after using that pen for a while, when I switch to an ordinary nib my writing looks better for a while, until my normal lazy sloppy habits re-assert themselves. I can maintain the discipline longer with some conscious effort, which gets easier with repetition.

 

So I think there may be a benefit to a small sweet spot on a nib, if using it can contribute to one's handwriting discipline. 

[A Smug Dill]

6 hours ago, Rroberrt said:

But in the meantime, could I test your patience by asking what exactly is unique about these two nibs?

 

They're not unique. They're merely two brands that manufacture their nibs in-house and are known for producing nibs that provide a noticeable amount of feedback out-of-the-box, as a characteristic and not a defect or shortcoming in the finishing process, and with consistently good quality control. I suggested Sailor as the exemplar among Japanese fountain pens and Aurora among European pens, as alternatives not knowing if you have a particular preference for Far East or Western consumer products. Short of handing you one of my own pens, which I know well, to try on account of it having that characteristic, or personally checking whichever other pen you select, I have to rely on the balance of probabilities when recommending broad groups from which you'll pick up a random unit for the purpose.

 

6 hours ago, Rroberrt said:

and how does that translate to hand-writing?

 

You alluded to kinaesthetic feedback providing you with sensory information such that you can (consciously or unconsciously) exert better, more precise control of the pen, and thus improve your handwriting outcomes. My point is that feedback is not unique to stub, cursive italic, or other broad-edged nibs; and ‘monoline’ nibs do not have to be devoid of feedback, but be butter-smooth. Using a Fine nib — and both Sailor and Aurora are known to produce relatively finer Fine and Extra Fine nibs than the ‘average’ Western fountain pen — you're more likely to get ‘proof’ that convinces you to decouple the idea of feedback and line width differences between downstrokes and cross-strokes; and then you can focus on whether feedback improves handwriting (as the activity of producing ink marks), or whether ‘line variation’ improves handwriting (as the observable outcome).

 

I personally find nibs that are too smooth, and glide all over the page as if it was an optically perfect glass surface, to be a pain and a chore to use, when I want to produce precise ink marks, lines and shapes on paper with them.

[txomsy]

A couple of points:

 

From the very initial writing books (and I imagine it was common advice long before) it has been advised to start writing with large letters (and then it was only "italic" cuts) before going to smaller ones so you could see better the defects.

 

Using an italic or stub nib, you force large letters and thicker lines, which will help you get feedback on your writing. It will also force you to keep the pen/nib orientation both in relation with the angle of the pen with the paper and in relation with the nib tip with the paper. This forces consistency and trains your hand into finer motor skills.

 

The added character makes you feel "better" about your results, adding positive feedback instead of the negative feedback you get scrabbling.

 

 

On the other hand, it is not an absolute truth that you cannot write cursive or Copperplate-like with a stub or italic nib. That's a commonly perpetuated myth. The truth is that those scripts were developed to teach italic handwriting and evolved to "flex" quills because of the "shortcomings" of the Copperplate technique; and for several centuries (and you can find testimony in writing- and copy-books) those hands were also taught and written with italic nibs. Not only that, the influence was mutual and later hands (even from Italy) using italic nibs tended to look closer to copperplatish for two reasons, first it was in fashion and second it was easier and safer to obtain, teach and learn line variation in schools with an italic nib than with a flexible nib. When you look at 19th C copy books from Italy, France, Netherlands or Spain it may take some attention to tell apart "italic" (or national hand) from "flex" (or English hand) unless you look at where the shape variation takes place.

 

 

[Rroberrt]

JackJ - “...appealing and readable...”

Thank you.  A beautifully succinct phrase which has an empty space waiting for it in my journal.

 

Paul-in-SF -  “...a small sweet spot...can contribute to...handwriting discipline.”

I think that you are correct relative to grip.  But I also think that a strait edge facilitates consistency of slope, and to a lesser extent, size of characters.

 

A Smug Dill -  Very interesting, I will try one of these nibs. Thank you.

 

txomsy - “...pen/nib orientation...”  importance came home to me during a minute scrutiny of my own grip and nib position:  I realizes that a slight left-oblique fit better than the original right-angle tip.  Trial and error persuaded that approximately 15 degrees worked best for me.  three of my pens i have altered in this way, and so far am delighted.

[TheDutchGuy]

Quote

Stubbies Improve Handwriting

 

So far I’ve not been able to find any particular kind of nib (stub, architect, needlepoint, italic, whatever) that consistently improves my handwriting. Some individual nibs in each family do, most don’t.

 

I’d say that really fine nibs (Japanese F or EF, vintage needlepoint etc) have the highest chance of improving my writing, as well as certain mini-stubs that I either made myself or had made for me.

 

But the pen itself has a lot to do with it: dimensions, weight, materials (nothing slippery please), how it fits my hand, etc. I’ve had the same nib in different pens, with totally different results.

 

In my experience, price has nothing to do with it. A humble €20 plastic Kaweco Sport EF is a supremely comfortable pen for me that allows me to write neatly and effortlessly and I actually prefer it over some (not all) of my high-end pens.

[Rroberrt]

I agree.  Certain stubs have not helped me much either.  I have not experienced different pens with same nib, but I can surely attest to difficulty with a slippery grip - eg. my Lamy 2000. 

 

Quite a coincidence, Dutch Guy, but last night I was looking at that particular grip and wondering if I dared take some sandpaper to it.  I wonder what fixes others have come up with?  (And no! I do not have a particularly sweaty hand - get along fine with my ‘51’s.)

[TheDutchGuy]

2 hours ago, Rroberrt said:

I wonder what fixes others have come up with?

 

Just some Sellotape.

[Rroberrt]

By George sir.  I think that did it.

 

The Scotch tape does not interfere with capping the pen, and in short term at least, it works.  Immediately; my grip loosened, hand relaxed and letters got bigger and better formed. Thank you.

 

I’ve been trying to like that L2k for three months.

 

But I’m not giving up on the idea of roughing three small areas where my tripod-fingers land. What think?

[TheDutchGuy]

13 hours ago, Rroberrt said:

By George sir.  I think that did it. The Scotch tape does not interfere with capping the pen, and in short term at least, it works.  Immediately; my grip loosened, hand relaxed and letters got bigger and better formed. Thank you.

 

You’re welcome. Glad to hear it made it easier for you to enjoy the pen.

 

13 hours ago, Rroberrt said:

I’ve been trying to like that L2k for three months. But I’m not giving up on the idea of roughing three small areas where my tripod-fingers land. What think?

 

Physically changing your L2k might or might not improve it. That’s up in the air. If you tried to like it for three months, then unless you’re emotionally attached to it, sell it and move on. Your hand might enjoy a non-metal pen with a concave section, such as a Maiora (I’m not advocating the brand, merely pointing out the shape). When bonding with a pen over time, simple, reversible solutions and pragmatism are the way to go, such as trying different ink, different paper, simple tricks like the Sellotape, the usual minor nib adjustment if needed, etc. Beyond that, accept that you two aren’t meant to be together, go out into fountain pen land to court again, single and ready to mingle. The chase is better than the catch 😉

[Rroberrt]

Ha! Ha!

[1nkulus]

On 6/6/2021 at 7:18 AM, TheDutchGuy said:

When bonding with a pen over time, simple, reversible solutions and pragmatism are the way to go, such as trying different ink, different paper, simple tricks like the Sellotape, the usual minor nib adjustment if needed, etc. Beyond that, accept that you two aren’t meant to be together, go out into fountain pen land to court again, single and ready to mingle. The chase is better than the catch 😉

An apt approach to safely tumbling down the rabbit hole. 

 

It is pointless forcing yourself to gel with a pen, plenty of fish in the pond to peruse, acquire and enjoy.

Most are short term flings, some are medium term romances and few turn out to be lifetime relationships.

[tde44x]

Mine has improved - although I started with pretty poor handwriting - due to slowing down and writing larger to enjoy the experience more. Probably would have happened with other nibs but the stubs motivate me. Now over half my collection are stubs ranging from 1.1 to 1.5. Of the rest, the only ones I use regularly are broads.