Pen skips when you write fast?

[Bo Bo Olson]

On 5/19/2021 at 2:39 PM, Spatil said:

because I am mostly having this issue with Waterman inks.

Waterman was considered the wet ink before Noodlers arrived. There are noodler users who think Waterman is a dry ink.

 

Could be a paper problem but almost sounds like a 'baby bottom'. A bad case of it...........normal it's only the first half of the first letter writing cursive.

Then again if one prints...I could see more of a problem.

Try a good to better paper....90g/24 pounds.....laser and not Ink Jet paper.

[dipper]

As seen in the interesting ideas already suggested in this thread there are numerous possible causes of the skipping problem. I could add some further alternatives to the list, but that may not help solve the problem.

 

An alternative approach is to try more experimentation to intentionally recreate and repeat the skipping behaviour. The original poster has already given some precise observations of the conditions under which the problem tends to occur, so the groundwork is all ready for further trials.

 

Here is an example experiment:

 

Phase 1:

Write "The quick brown... etc" very rapidly, on cheap absorbent copier paper. (Yes - the opposite of suggestions made to fix the problem, because we are now trying to make the problem happen!)

Faster, and faster ..... until skipping is seen on an upstroke... and then keep rapidly repeating a series of upstrokes l l l l l l etc.

If most of these upstrokes are skipping then phase 1 of the experiment is a success. The problem can be repeated reliably.

If only the first upstroke is skipped then we need to try some other tactic, until a way of repeating the problem is found. Perhaps the cursive text "over the lazy" is necessary. Or perhaps just a few long horizontal lines crossing the page width will do the trick?

 

Phase 2:

Perform repeats of the skipping demonstration, using the method found in phase 1.  At each repeat demonstration take one of the suggestions already given and modify that one aspect of how the pen is used. For instance, hold the pen turned about its long axis to a slightly different angle, or hold the pen at a slightly shallower angle between the plane of the paper and the long axis of the pen.

 

Somewhere a change will be found that alters the results seen. If the skipping goes away that is good. If the skipping gets worse that is good also!

 

Results of the suggested experiment above will allow the user to zero in on the cause of the problem.

 

Let's say that it is found that rotating the pen slightly one way makes the problem worse, and rotating the other way cures it. What does that mean? Could be the problem was caused by the user unconsciously rotating the pen "the wrong way" when writing fast. But equally it could reveal some misadjustment fault of the nib that limits flow that can be compensated by rotating the pen.

But these are just imaginary examples to flesh out the overall experiment suggestion. Everything will depend on what results are actually found.

 

Buried in my notebooks and sketchbooks are plenty of examples where I deviate from whatever I was writing, sketching, designing, etc to write ".............. (expletive deleted) it's happening again", followed by some tests to try to make the problem worse. The most shocking recent example was when pencil sketching, or maybe using ballpoint pen... " ...... argh... more greasy patches on this paper", followed by a page intentionally oiled and greased, and then lines drawn over the slick greasy patches. Result: No change seen! My initial assumption was perfectly reasonable, it was in line with common advice to "avoid getting skin oils onto your paper", and was entirely wrong!

[Spatil]

On 5/23/2021 at 3:45 AM, Bo Bo Olson said:

Waterman was considered the wet ink before Noodlers arrived. There are noodler users who think Waterman is a dry ink.

 

Could be a paper problem but almost sounds like a 'baby bottom'. A bad case of it...........normal it's only the first half of the first letter writing cursive.

Then again if one prints...I could see more of a problem.

Try a good to better paper....90g/24 pounds.....laser and not Ink Jet paper.

Correct me if I am wrong but, baby bottom is a problem found in 'B' point nibs, right? I had problem with every point size spare nib in the pen with friction fit feed. In case of 'B' point nib the pen was putting very less ink on paper throughout the writing even if the line thickness was greater, so it feels like a flow issue and it should be the common problem in all the spare nibs more or less. What I know of baby bottom is that it causes initial skip but once the ink flow starts it doesn't give problem, which is quite different from what I got.

[silverlifter]

47 minutes ago, Spatil said:

Correct me if I am wrong but, baby bottom is a problem found in 'B' point nibs, right?

 

Baby's bottom is a result of the way the nib is ground/polished, not the width of the point.

[Spatil]

On 5/25/2021 at 6:39 AM, dipper said:

As seen in the interesting ideas already suggested in this thread there are numerous possible causes of the skipping problem. I could add some further alternatives to the list, but that may not help solve the problem.

 

An alternative approach is to try more experimentation to intentionally recreate and repeat the skipping behaviour. The original poster has already given some precise observations of the conditions under which the problem tends to occur, so the groundwork is all ready for further trials.

 

Here is an example experiment:

 

Phase 1:

Write "The quick brown... etc" very rapidly, on cheap absorbent copier paper. (Yes - the opposite of suggestions made to fix the problem, because we are now trying to make the problem happen!)

Faster, and faster ..... until skipping is seen on an upstroke... and then keep rapidly repeating a series of upstrokes l l l l l l etc.

If most of these upstrokes are skipping then phase 1 of the experiment is a success. The problem can be repeated reliably.

If only the first upstroke is skipped then we need to try some other tactic, until a way of repeating the problem is found. Perhaps the cursive text "over the lazy" is necessary. Or perhaps just a few long horizontal lines crossing the page width will do the trick?

 

Phase 2:

Perform repeats of the skipping demonstration, using the method found in phase 1.  At each repeat demonstration take one of the suggestions already given and modify that one aspect of how the pen is used. For instance, hold the pen turned about its long axis to a slightly different angle, or hold the pen at a slightly shallower angle between the plane of the paper and the long axis of the pen.

 

Somewhere a change will be found that alters the results seen. If the skipping goes away that is good. If the skipping gets worse that is good also!

 

Results of the suggested experiment above will allow the user to zero in on the cause of the problem.

 

Let's say that it is found that rotating the pen slightly one way makes the problem worse, and rotating the other way cures it. What does that mean? Could be the problem was caused by the user unconsciously rotating the pen "the wrong way" when writing fast. But equally it could reveal some misadjustment fault of the nib that limits flow that can be compensated by rotating the pen.

But these are just imaginary examples to flesh out the overall experiment suggestion. Everything will depend on what results are actually found.

 

Buried in my notebooks and sketchbooks are plenty of examples where I deviate from whatever I was writing, sketching, designing, etc to write ".............. (expletive deleted) it's happening again", followed by some tests to try to make the problem worse. The most shocking recent example was when pencil sketching, or maybe using ballpoint pen... " ...... argh... more greasy patches on this paper", followed by a page intentionally oiled and greased, and then lines drawn over the slick greasy patches. Result: No change seen! My initial assumption was perfectly reasonable, it was in line with common advice to "avoid getting skin oils onto your paper", and was entirely wrong!

I did some writing experiments which were similar with some of your ideas and what I did different was that when while quickly writing sentences I would randomly freeze my arm at whatever part I am writing and check the pen paper angle/direction/orientation etc and corresponding that check the wrist, elbow and shoulder joint rotation as I go from one edge of the page to another. I found that nib positioning would continuously change from start to end of the line, not that it is causing problem. As for why I was having problem initially when I got into fps, I have a theory that when I am writing quickly my arm would be in a stressed/constrained state due to which upper arm movement reduces and pen motion is more dependent on lower arm movement which is similar to finger writing as compared to using whole arm used for fp. In other words my old writing habit kicking in because of me focusing more on content of writing than the way of writing. But seriously I forgot about this as of late as it was becoming less and less of concern. Where I did mistake was I considered this problem and what I was having with my latest pen as same, which was not true because nib swapping caused problem which I don't understand properly but I gave up the idea of nib swapping and things are working pretty good so it's okay.

[Spatil]

8 minutes ago, silverlifter said:

 

Baby's bottom is a result of the way the nib is ground/polished, not the width of the point.

Not due to point size but generally found in broad point because of how it's polished due to its tip size? I heard it's mostly in broad point, correct me if I am wrong.

[silverlifter]

30 minutes ago, Spatil said:

I heard it's mostly in broad point, correct me if I am wrong.

 

You keep asking to be corrected, and then arguing the point when you are. That makes the invitation either moot or disingenuous.

[Spatil]

1 hour ago, silverlifter said:

 

You keep asking to be corrected, and then arguing the point when you are. That makes the invitation either moot or disingenuous.

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

Go to Richard Binder's site, the bible of fountain pens....for the three days it will take to read it all.

 

I luckily chase vintage and semi-vintage nibs so don't have baby bottom problems in the nib geometry is different than the fat and blobby modern nibs.

All of which can have baby bottom problems even the skinny.

 

I only have 5-6 modern pens, not counting my Pelikan 200's the nib of which is still classically ground.

One of them a BB Pelikan did have a slight case of baby bottom, but that could have happened with an M or even an F.....if it's a fat and blobby double ball nib.

 

[maclink]

14 hours ago, silverlifter said:

 

You keep asking to be corrected, and then arguing the point when you are. That makes the invitation either moot or disingenuous.

It was more of a clarifying question and I am curious about the answer if anyone has it.  Yes, baby's bottoming occurs as a result of how a nib is ground/polished and hence can occur with any nib size.  However, are larger tipped nibs more vulnerable to being polished into baby's bottoming and are hence, more commonly affected? 

[Bo Bo Olson]

Pelikan which is more my boat, makes big fat double ball tips on all it's nibs but the 200..........baby bottom has to do with that.

Baby bottom did not exist on the stubs of the '50-65 era, or the '82-97 era, in the nibs had proper geometry and were not over polished.....

One got to remember the Golden Age of Paper died unnoticed, in the 80's. You got to hunt for good to better paper, when in the '80's still even cheap paper was coated.

 

If you use either P.Poor cheap paper.....or 100-50% cotton you don't have to worry about baby bottom. The fuzz picks up the ink right away.

 

Medium to good paper will show baby bottom, caused by over polishing. Trying to give the customer exactly what he thinks he wants...butter smooth.

 

Don't worry about baby bottom on B or BB nibs.....just stub them....get something interesting in your writing, with a bit of practice should even get a nice clean line............which modern nibs outside the 200; won't give you. (Perhaps some Japanese nibs) but none of the double ball nibs, will.

I like a nice clean line.

[OMASsimo]

3 hours ago, maclink said:

It was more of a clarifying question and I am curious about the answer if anyone has it.  Yes, baby's bottoming occurs as a result of how a nib is ground/polished and hence can occur with any nib size.  However, are larger tipped nibs more vulnerable to being polished into baby's bottoming and are hence, more commonly affected? 

No. The problem comes from grinding the tip such that the inner edges are rounded off too much so that the ink film doesn’t touch the paper surface. The problem is aggravated by polishing to a super smooth finish so that the wetting of the tipping surface is reduced. Both is independent of the nib width. However, the finer the point the higher the pressure so that the tip might penetrate deeper into the surface of softer paper. Thus, a nib with a fine point and BB might get away on soft paper and croak only on harder seized slick paper. Broader nibs with BB might show the problem even on softer paper.

[maclink]

1 hour ago, OMASsimo said:

Thus, a nib with a fine point and BB might get away on soft paper and croak only on harder seized slick paper.

This is good information. I have a nib but cannot now recall on which pen, , that croaks on Claire Fontaine paper. However, it did just fine on Tamoe River. In retrospect this may have been down to a little baby’s bottoming. 

[ardene]

I am a fast writer myself and this has happened to me on occasion with a batch of Waterman ink.

 

It can happen:

-On downstrokes, vertical or diagonal, after having written four or five sentences (roughly about 1/6th of an A4 page).

 

Process of eliminiation of causes other than the pen:

-Happens more often at the bottom of the page, due to pressure and/or oily residue from the hands on the paper. Can be fixed by using a paper or plastic to cover the writing paper’s surface (and hand washing before a writing session).

 

-Slightly rougher paper can help. I like paper in student notebooks because it is designed to be written on by all sorts of things.

 

- Happens to me exclusively with nibs with large tipping surface, an OBB and a stub.

 

- Happens with a partucular bottle of Waterman’s serenity blue. Maybe the ink came from the bottom of a large container?

 

-Finally, it happened only in winter. So the ambient temperature (which is also what the pen’s parts and the ink have) can play a pronounced role.

[Ethelios]

Out of curiosity, have you cleaned this pen recently? Sometimes bad paper gets caught on the tines, and ink doesn't flow as freely if something's blocking them. It's hard to notice, but doesn't hurt the pen.

Just water a a tiny plastic card or file helped cranky pen.

[Spatil]

On 6/1/2021 at 10:02 PM, Ethelios said:

Out of curiosity, have you cleaned this pen recently? Sometimes bad paper gets caught on the tines, and ink doesn't flow as freely if something's blocking them. It's hard to notice, but doesn't hurt the pen.

Just water a a tiny plastic card or file helped cranky pen.

Yes and I also checked nib slits for blockage before posting here. For now I can only accept that nib swapping doesn't work every time.