Permanent Blue-Black Ink Suggestions

[sewhite1990]

Hi all! I am a PhD student who works in a wet lab with large amounts of water-based solutions, sometimes with organic solvents, and sometimes with bleach. I currently use Noodler's 54th Massachusetts as my go-to permanent ink for use in my lab notebooks (yes, it's THAT bulletproof). When my bottle of ink runs out, I do not wish to repurchase it. Does anyone have suggestions for a good blue-black ink (or maybe even a blue ink and a black ink that I can mix) that is NOT made by Noodler's that is waterproof and permanent? Thanks!

[sgphototn]

I've had great success with KWZ Iron Gall inks. I use the Blue Black, Blue #5, and Blue #6 almost to the exclusions of everything else in all my pens. 

 

Vanness Pens is a great place to buy them with good service, fast shipping, and free shipping over $49.00.

[Karmachanic]

Might find one here and here

[A Smug Dill]

37 minutes ago, sewhite1990 said:

Does anyone have suggestions for a good blue-black ink (or maybe even a blue ink and a black ink that I can mix) that is NOT made by Noodler's that is waterproof and permanent?

 

Sailor Souboku and Seiboku (nano-pigment inks) fit the description as well as, if not hands-down better than, any ink on the market could, I'd say.

[sewhite1990]

1 hour ago, Karmachanic said:

Might find one here and here

I didn't realize this was opened previously a couple times. Thank you! 

 

48 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

Sailor Souboku and Seiboku (nano-pigment inks) fit the description as well as, if not hands-down better than, any ink on the market could, I'd say.

I always enjoy Sailor's inks. I'll definitely take a look at them! 

 

1 hour ago, sgphototn said:

I've had great success with KWZ Iron Gall inks. I use the Blue Black, Blue #5, and Blue #6 almost to the exclusions of everything else in all my pens. 

I've heard good things about KWZ's Iron Gall inks. I'll definitely have to check them out. Thank you!

[bunnspecial]

I did my grad school research mostly in IG ink, but I only really had to worry about solvents.

 

Iron Gall is not a good choice is bleach is in the mix. In fact, that's one of the things in my "bag of tricks" to ID an iron gall ink(not 100% as other inks will bleach out, but IG is waterfast but not bleach proof).

 

Since Noodler's is out, you might look at Lamy Crystal Benitoite. I've actually never checked it against bleach, but I seem to vaguely recall mention of an ISO certification on it. Bleach is part of that certifcation.

 

I've used MB Permanent Blue, but it's definitely a blue and not a blue-black. There is also a permanent black, but I don't know how it would like being mixed with permanent blue. These do both carry ISO permanence certifications.

[shostakovich]

I use De Atramentis blue, dark blue and black document inks. Very good and they can be mixed.

[Carrau]

I’m not sure about how it behaves with bleach, but Pilot Blue Black is an unexciting workhorse for many here.  It is a predominantly blue ink, waterproof, and very cheap, especially in its 350ml bottle-Amazon $24.99.  And you can refill Pilot V7 rollerball pens with it as well.

[lapis]

Alongside Sailor Souboku and Seiboku

• Montblanc's older IG Blue-black if you can still find it anywhere
• Your own mix of Montblanc's Permanent Blue and Permanent Black (non-IGs)
• Pelikan's 4001 Blue-black (IG-lite but hard to get in the States)

[inkstainedruth]

So the question I have for the OP is this: what didn't you like about 54th Massachusetts?  Because that is one of my go-to "permanent" inks (others being Noodler's El Lawrence and Sailor Souboku).  While I like a lot of IG inks, they are NOT light-fast in my experience. 

If you want something that's pretty much EVERYTHING proof, there's always Noodler's KTC.  But it's a finicky ink that doesn't play well in many pens.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

[Caronann]

Blackstone's Barrister Black. 

Waterproof, permanent, and bleach proof from my tests.

 

Blackstone Barrister's Blue Black

Permanent, Water/Bleach  - only about 60% remaining.

[A Smug Dill]

2 hours ago, inkstainedruth said:

So the question I have for the OP is this: what didn't you like about 54th Massachusetts? ...‹snip›... If you want something that's pretty much EVERYTHING proof, there's always Noodler's KTC.

 

Wild stab in the dark — perhaps that it's made by Noodler's Ink? I don't think it's such an uncommon sentiment. All else being equal, between two candidates that both meet my requirements, I'd choose the one not made by Noodler's.

 

10 hours ago, sewhite1990 said:

When my bottle of ink runs out, I do not wish to repurchase it. Does anyone have suggestions for a good blue-black ink (or maybe even a blue ink and a black ink that I can mix) that is NOT made by Noodler's that is waterproof and permanent?

 

…

 

2 hours ago, inkstainedruth said:

While I like a lot of IG inks, they are NOT light-fast in my experience.

 

The colour of the writing on the page does not remain the same for long and will fade, but the marks due the iron-gall content in the ink will remain legible and are fairly permanent. Pick a ‘stronger’ IG ink if one wants the information content in the handwritten material to be preserved, irrespective of the colour as which the ink marks start off when freshly put on the page.

[bunnspecial]

Since the OP specifically mentions bleach resistance, IGs are out  as that is their major Achilles heel in permanence. 

[A Smug Dill]

15 minutes ago, bunnspecial said:

Since the OP specifically mentions bleach resistance, IGs are out  as that is their major Achilles heel in permanence. 

 

Don't ink marks from iron-gall ink turn brown after reacting with bleach?

[bunnspecial]

36 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Don't ink marks from iron-gall ink turn brown after reacting with bleach?

They disappear completely in my testing. A light bleach swab will turn them brown, yes, but if allowed to soak/stand(as may be the case with a spill) they will go away. 

[txomsy]

There are many possibilities. Just search for Document or Registrar inks, specially ones that have been ISO certified. In some instances, there is no Blue-Black but there are Blue and Black and you may mix them (check out first which inks can be mixed with which others) to obtain your own shade (but note that it is not necessarily a 1:1 mix, you'd have to check the Ink recipes sub-forum).

 

 

12 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

Wild stab in the dark — perhaps that it's made by Noodler's Ink? I don't think it's such an uncommon sentiment. All else being equal, between two candidates that both meet my requirements, I'd choose the one not made by Noodler's.

 

Sorry, but that's a non-answer. You don't give any reason for your dislike, and naming that others do not like it either doesn't contribute anything either. It would be better if you could give any reason as @inkstainedruth asked.

 

Personally, I have nothing against almost any maker, including Noodler's. Each have their own pros and cons. I understand some Noodlers' inks have their own quirks, much like most inks from most manufacturers, it's difficult to find an ink that matches everybody's taste..

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, txomsy said:

Sorry, but that's a non-answer. You don't give any reason for your dislike,

 

@inkstainedruth asked why the O.P. doesn't like a specific product (54th Massachusetts ink), and I suggested the reason is because one of its attributes — in this case, its manufacturer or brand — may be the reason, when that has already been alluded to in his/her initial post.

 

As for my personal dislike, it is an answer, if that is the reason for me and I'm the one making a choice. I don't need to justify the logic to anyone's satisfaction, and I don't need you or anyone else to either share or understand the sentiment. The if-clause in an IF-THEN(-ELSE) statement for a particular piece of decision-making is the reason, the criterion, the trigger for the then-clause. Since when does liking or disliking something have to be rational, anyway? Not even my conscious mind demands that my unconscious mind explain itself and justify my gut reactions; and I don't think anyone else is in a position to demand an explanation to fit within their cognitive framework.

[arcfide]

5 hours ago, txomsy said:

Sorry, but that's a non-answer. You don't give any reason for your dislike, and naming that others do not like it either doesn't contribute anything either. It would be better if you could give any reason as @inkstainedruth asked.

 

Speaking generally, brand impact is a lot more subtle and irrational than most people would like to believe, and it's perfectly fine to bottom out in your justifications to say, "Well, it's Noodler's, and I don't like Noodler's." It may not be rational, but as long as you aren't justifying your decision as rational, then it's a perfectly fine decision. 

 

I have and enjoy Noodler's inks on some level, but they are almost never in any of my pens. Objectively they are, in most respects, perfectly serviceable for me, but the fact is that they are Noodler's, and not <insert X fountain pen brand>, and that means I'm not as likely to use them in my pens. Same goes with Jacques Herbin. Objectively they work just fine, but even if they're good, they're not <insert X fountain pen brand>. That's an irrational brand preference that I'm perfectly fine to stick with because, objectively, it also doesn't matter that much. 

 

Regarding the OP's requirements, I think it's clear that IG inks should be left out of the picture here, as bleach is not something you want to mix with IG inks if you want to have a good chance of preserving the writing. Likewise, most dye-based inks other than the Noodler's bulletproof line will react poorly with Bleach even if they are otherwise more resistant. That pretty much only leaves the ISO-certified or pigmented ink lines. All the ISO-certified inks I am aware of are pigmented (even though sometimes people argue that they are not), and then there are some pigmented inks that are not ISO-certified which could be if they went through the process. There are also some pigmented inks that might not handle bleach as well as they could, so I would verify that a sample of the ink holds up well to a good bleach soak before going further with that. 

 

If I were making the choice for a blue black under these conditions, it would be a pigmented blue black from Sailor, either Seiboku or Souboku, as they will give me a good blue black without the need for mixing or anything else, and I have a good deal of trust in the Sailor and Platinum pigmented ink lines. If Black and Blue inks were also on the table, then I'd open up my selection to Sailor, Platinum, and Montblanc's line of pigmented permanent inks. I don't have enough experience and testing with the De Atramantis or other document inks from the likes of Pelikan or such to be willing to place any bets on those inks, though I imagine that they would also likely work. 

 

I am convinced that Lamy's Benitoite is a modern IG ink, and so while it counts as "document proof" according to Lamy, it would not make the running here, IMO. 

 

[bunnspecial]

26 minutes ago, arcfide said:

I am convinced that Lamy's Benitoite is a modern IG ink, and so while it counts as "document proof" according to Lamy, it would not make the running here, IMO.

 

I just went through and wrote out a test page with a bunch of inks including all of the iron galls I have and a few other non-Noodlers permanents. My intent is to bleach it to varying degrees once the IG has had a chance to "turn".

 

In any case, my bottle of Lamy Benitoite is at work. I had student there the other day who's seriously interested in fountain pens and I inked a bunch of pens for him. Since he was interested in Safaris specifically(and decided he would probably want to get an Al-Star instead, which is a side note but why I'm glad he tried a bunch of my stuff) I think I probably inked at least one with Benitoite. I don't know 100%, though, so I'm probably going to wait until I'm in the office tomorrow to just use a dip pen and add to my test page. This test sheet does have some long-gone inks, including Lamy iron gall in a flying saucer bottle and two different types of MB iron gall(Midnight Blue and the older rounded bottle blue black).

 

As a side note, I did hit everything with some Carter's Ink Eradicator-the kind with the little glass rod you dip in the bottle and then rub over the ink(there's also a "resurface" solution but mine is dried up). I seem to recall reading that this is a hypochlorite bleach, although not Sodium Hypochlorite as in Chlorox/laundry bleach.