The REALLY Rare Ones...

[theodore94]

I came across this article about the Oldest Surviving Waterman maybe a week ago (https://www.vintagepens.com/Oldest_Waterman.htm), and I've been thinking about it ever since. 

 

I'm not the level of collector where I'd have anything rare at all, and certainly nothing super rare like this... but I hope one day (years from now) I might be.  And that got me thinking... where do people even find these super rare pens? I tried looking for horseshoe nibs and star nibs, and apart from a few posts on here from years ago, there's basically no information about them at all, let alone any of them for sale. Were I to happen upon one at a flea market, I'd have no clue if a horseshoe nib is a $100, $1000, or $100000 item. What does an Ideal without a globe even look like, and what's a 2-step section? If I won the lottery tomorrow, where would I go to find one?

 

Even the pen on that page -- the potentially Oldest Surviving Waterman -- where is that? Is there a museum, or is that in someone's collection somewhere? 

 

I know these are super rare and, therefore, very few people will ever have one. But is there a lot of "lore" that I'm unaware of? I'll never own the hope diamond or an inverted jenny, but I know what they are -- and I don't collect jewelry or stamps!

 

Overall, my question is: where are the collectors of these kinds of pens, and how can I learn more about them?

[shalitha33]

Star nibs are not too difficult to find. i don't have any horse shoe ones so cant comment on that unfortunately  . If you try to hunt for a certain pen and look for one thats advertised as such then it's going to cost a bit to get.  A better option is to read up on the pen and look for certain clues. if you are not looking for the best possible example then this is a good option and you can get most things for under or around $ 100 or so mark. 

 

As an example if you are after a star nib, and happens to find a listing in ebay for a waterman 22 with a nib covered in ink you might want to take a gamble and have a check at other clues . For an example if it has the diamond design on the 2 bands and on the barrel, if it has a narrow feed etc you might want to try your luck (given its at a good price). obviously its a risk. so you need to be able to afford it being something else. you can also ask questions to be safe as well. 

Realistically , finding a first year waterman  or a prince's protein is fairly difficult to impossible without any connections :(. but finding a pre 1900 waterman is fairly easy. If you are not worried about the sharpness of the imprint or the color or the hard rubber then it gets easier.

If you want to get one as an investment then i'm not sure.  I don't know how easy it would be to cash one up. If you want one as a daily writer then they have really nice nibs with nice flex etc. but sadly this is when people haven't still figured out how to do a proper feed. so its likely to cause a bit of a mess.

[joss]

It is a remarkable question because the owner of that website and writer of that article, David Nishimura, is a giant in the hobby. He is a highly respected researcher on fountain pen history and a long time collector of rare pens. His research is rock solid and always based on proven evidence. We can learn a lot from this scientific approach, eg by avoiding as much as possible the loose assumptions or superfluous 'hear-sayings' that are, unfortunately, too common in our hobby.

 

David Nishimura's vintage pen blog is a real treasure chest for anyone interested in fountain pens in the broadest sense.

 

[theodore94]

@shalitha33 Is there a good resource or catalogue of all the pre-1900 Watermans somewhere? I love this site for Parkers: https://parkerpens.net/apis.html. It makes it really easy to see what models of pens came when, and the tidbits of information in the line-specific pages are always fascinating. But I'm not aware of anything quite as comprehensive for Waterman history.

 

Oh, and what is a Prince's Protein? I've seen a bit more information about Star nibs... I even saw one on eBay from not too long ago. But the others stuff -- horseshoe nibs, one liner Ideals, 2-step sections -- I've seen almost none of.

 

@jossYes, his website is great! I really enjoy scrolling and checking out all the pictures. I didn't know the name of the person who made the website, but now that I do, thanks David (if you see this) for helping make me a fountain pen fanatic (= I'll have to take more time reading his blog!

 

Is that "Oldest Waterman" from his collection? I figured if it were in a museum somewhere, I might (at some point in my life) make the trip to go see it.

[shalitha33]

For early pens its best to find a good book actually. 

 

I mainly looks at old catalogues that are available for almost all brands. But they don't have good quality images etc. On the other hand that was the resource available for the original owners of those pens when they purchased them 100 years ago.

 

e.g https://archive.org/details/WatermanFountainPenCatalogs/Waterman Pen Catalog 1925/page/n23/mode/2up 

Although not relevant to this topic , also have a look at greenie's site for Paul e Wirt pens. It would have been (one of the main ones) competitor for waterman pens at that point in history. you can see how the two brands evolved. 

https://vintagependoctor.com/paul-e-wirt-fountain-pens/

 

 

As for prince. its *one of the* very first commercially available pens.  Only image I am aware of one is from PCA Pennant fall 1999 (I personally haven't seen this, but is told that there are some images of a number of pens and a nice article about them in it).

 

http://newpentrace.net/penbase/Data_Returns/full_articlee426.html?id=455

 

 

[theodore94]

Wow, these old archives are super cool! Thanks so much! And while the pictures aren't perfect, at least I can get a sense for when the different models were made. I'll take a look at your other links as well.

 

Oh -- I had never even heard of the Prince Protean. Thanks for the link!

 

Are there very famous collections somewhere where you can see these extremely rare pens? Like a museum? I don't see any of these ultra-rare pens for sale anywhere in the past few years, so people must be holding onto them. 

 

[shalitha33]

also https://archive.org/details/466SheafferCatalogOfDeskSets1970s39Pages_201410/108-parker-catalog-ca-1897-12-pages

[FarmBoy]

There is always the PCA lurking in the background.

[Addertooth]

There are a lot of mid-level collectors pen which have shown great staying power.  As always, know the signs of failing/dying Celluloid before you even consider investing.

Any of the Patrician Pens are very collectable.  Some of the Lady Patrcia pens which were made in sterling (cable as an example).  Some of the ornate #12 and #42 pens can be 

a solid find.  Any of the pens (typically #7 and some Inkvue pens) with a KEYHOLE nib, especially if it is Red, Pink, White.  Pretty much anything with a Music Nib.. one of those nibs (no pen) is going for over 160 bucks right now on Ebay... 

 

This level is a good place to start, until you are ready to go big bucks. 

[theodore94]

Oh wow, those are beautiful pens and such great pictures! The Inkvue flex looks amazing! 

 

Do you have any tips on evaluating celluloid or know of a good guide?

 

I tend to buy my pens at flea markets and the like (best I can do on a grad student stipend (= ), so I rarely get to "choose" which ones I find (though I occasionally break down and buy something I really want online). I would love to find a Patrician/Lady Patricia though! So far, I've started a small collection of the 52s... I have a 0552, a 452, a 52, and my favorite pen in my collection, a 552. I'm not sure you'd call them "rare", but they are nice to look at and fun to write with. I'm hoping one day I come across something truly rare that I can share with everyone on here!

 

 

 

[Addertooth]

Your 552 is a great find, as those without a leading zero (552 versus 0552) are the solid 14k gold versions, as versus "gold rolled" (thick gold foil over brass).  

As far as celluloid, look at an example of one which has not shifted color yet.  The "pearl" (Nacre) pens are some of the worst offenders (also Persian and Onyx) for shifting color.

Keep an eye out and avoid pens that are turning light, or even worse, whitish on the end of it.  It is a certain sign the celluloid has started the death spiral.  

 

I will leave you with a picture of my 552 1/2v pen.  It has a really great flex nib too. 

 

 

[sidthecat]

I have a Lady Patricia with a ringtop in Nacre. I've never seen another one...I imagine it was a custom order because it never had a clip, and it's exactly like a regular LP except for that.