Major differences between a 14k and 18k gold nib?

[theverdictis]

Hi all,

 

Is there or are there major differences other than price in using a 14k or 18k gold nib? Most pen makers seem to opt for a 14k nib rather than an 18k unless you buy the really big pens like the Pelikan M1000 or Montbalnc 149. Do you get more flex out of a 18k nib? Will an 18k last longer than a 14k nib in terms of having to be replaced? 

 

Any thoughts would be most welcome. 

 

Many thanks, 

 

Ben 

[Dione]

There's more gold in an 18ct nib than in a 14ct nib and gold is softer than the metals that it's usually mixed with. Some will say that there's no difference, some will prefer 14ct nibs to 18ct nibs and some will prefer 18ct nibs to 14ct nibs. It's just a personal preference.

[Bo Bo Olson]

It may not be true, but from my reading here.....18k/750 nibs bend and stay bent more easily or more often than 14K/585 gold nibs. So I tended to shy away from 18K.

If one is still ham fisted ....use other pens to become slightly hamfisted or even having a light hand.

 

For a fountain pen to be sold in France with a 'gold' nib it had to be 750/18K.

 

In I have steel nibs I trout as good as 14K gold, Osmia, Geha 790, Pelikan 120/200, I really don't totally buy into the Gold Myth....in Gold IS Better.....not necessary true, the grand Osmia Gold nibs are as good as their steel nibs.

 

Up to now I'd only had three 18K nibbed pens, a MB Virginia Woolf, a Pelikan 1005, and a small vintage W.Germany 600. They were all regular flex. So I didn't notice any wonders....in there was none to be had. I had more 14 K nibbed pens from that era that gave me the exact same nib flex...............did not notice any 'softer'.  But I am spoiled with '50-70 semi-flex, be that gold or steel.

I do have a W.Germany steel 200 OM that is just as good as my small W.Germany 600 18K OBB nib. The '82-91 W.Germany nib is a slight tad more springy than the '91-97 regular flex Pelikan nibs. In '98 the 800 (14&18K) became a nail, the 400/600 semi-nails. When Bock made the 1000's nibs they were semi-flex, when Pelikan took the nibs in House, it became a regular flex nib.

Your gold nib is what era, to what flex was wished.........I'd not put any money on it being better/softer than a good 14 K nib or my vintage steel Osmia nibs.

 

Some folks compare a nail with a semi-nail and think the tiny bit of give is because of gold over steel, when it is was the nib designed to be semi-nail, like a modern 400/600 or a P-75. being compared to a nail, be that steel, 14 K or 18K....a nails a nail.

Regular flex is regular flex be that steel, 14 or 18K.

Semi-flex is semi-flex, unfortunately I only have them in steel and 14K....

 

It also depends on which era the nibs are from. I 'lucked out'....went bat crazy and over bid my max, counting auction costs by 2/3's....These seven (one C'DA is for roller ball) pens are all late '80's very early 90's, and all have 18 K nibs, that are all regular flex.....as was still the norm back then.

I knew it was going to go for more than I could afford, but only sighed over the 18K W.Germany 800, that I wasn't going to be able to get. And over the second Toledo I ever had in my hand. I'd not even looked at the other pens, all classics. Ignorance is not knowing a Waterman Man 100 when it walks up and bites one in the wallet.

The wood looking one is a Diplomat.

 

What has this BS got to do with the difference between 14 and 18 K?

Hell if I know, but will be able to tell you once I ink them.

Ah, just remembered I have an 18K nail Lamy Persona, that had to be taken from OB to a CI by Pendelton Brown..............in a Nail is a Nail, be it steel, 14 or 18 K.

 

If your 18 K nib comes from the 10-20-30's it's libel to be superflex. If from Germany '30's-38 and after the war to mid late 60's it's libel to be semi-flex. The Germans liked a very soft nib that gave line variation and knew how to use a fountain pen.  Pre ball point=pre-hamfisted folk that make pretzels out of non nail nibs.

 

I lucked out to the max in these seven 18 K nibs are 'late '80-early 90's and are still regular flex.

Just as easy to get 14K nibs of that era in regular flex, in it was still regular issue.

Now, with ball point users making pretzels from nibs, harder nibs are made, be that steel, 14 or 18 K gold nibs.

 

 

[steve50]

There's little point comparing 14k nibs in general with 18k nibs in general. It all depends on their individual characteristics. Both 14k and 18k nibs can be hard, soft, or flexible. 

[bunnspecial]

I have some pens that are otherwise very similar but differ in their nib material. I have a handful of the MB 12/14/22/24 pens, and one key difference-putting aside trim-between the 1x and 2x series is the 1x are 18K and all the 2x pens I have are 14K(I seem to recall that there may be some with 18K).

 

Comparing like nib sizes, first of all I find the EFs to be nails while even fines can give a bit of variation. The 14K nibs feel a bit "springier" to me, while the 18K ones seem to flex a bit more but don't "snap back" as nicely.

 

OTOH, these are totally different sized nibs, but I find my Pelikan M800 18K nib about the same-as in a nail-as my smaller M400s with 14K nibs. My M205 has a pleasantly spring steel F nib. Similarly, my 146 and 149 are both 14K nails, but the newer 18K 149s I've written with are just as stiff. I suspect that, on MBs in particular, the stiff nibs are intentional as they are often given as gifts, etc to people who may not be FP people. Of course, there's now a special "Calligraphy" nib 149, but I don't know if it's 14K or 18K.

 

A lot of 30-50s nibs are gold but not necessarily marked as to content. I've noticed that by and large Parkers and Sheaffers of this vintage seem to be extremely stiff. It's my understanding that for day-to-day use, this was often considered desirable. Even a bit newer than that, has anyone ever used a flexible "51"?

[como]

4 hours ago, steve50 said:

There's little point comparing 14k nibs in general with 18k nibs in general. It all depends on their individual characteristics. Both 14k and 18k nibs can be hard, soft, or flexible. 

+1

[A Smug Dill]

11 hours ago, theverdictis said:

Is there or are there major differences other than price in using a 14k or 18k gold nib?

 

For 14K and 18K gold nibs of the same design and dimensions, such as those on Aurora Optima and Ottantotto models, or those on Platinum Vicoh models? Not noticeably, in my experience.

 

11 hours ago, theverdictis said:

Most pen makers seem to opt for a 14k nib rather than an 18k unless you buy the really big pens like the Pelikan M1000 or Montbalnc 149.

 

Really big in size, or in price? Whichever you meant, I disagree all the same.

• Platinum Vicoh kanazawa-haku and modern maki-e models with model numbers beginning with PTL- come with 18K gold nibs, in spite of being slender in shape and not high in price.
• Pilot Capless Décimo models, which are even more affordable and not large pens physically, come with 18K gold nibs.
• Sailor doesn't put 18K gold nibs on its own-branded current product line-up, as far as I know, but you can get both 14K and 21K gold nibs on Sailor Profit Standard models, without having to go up to Sailor Profit Large or King Of Pen in either size or price.
• Aurora puts both 14K and 18K gold nibs on its Optima models, which are all the same size physically. The slender Aurora Cento Hastil has a 18K gold nib. The dimunitive Aurora Aurea Minima models are also have 18K gold nibs.

 

12 hours ago, theverdictis said:

Do you get more flex out of a 18k nib?

 

No. Flex is flex, and comes down to the technical design of the nib. 18K gold nibs are not more apt to deform and rebound elastically than 14K gold nibs of the exact same design, although the alloy may be physically softer.

 

12 hours ago, theverdictis said:

Will an 18k last longer than a 14k nib in terms of having to be replaced?

 

No. If anything, with 18K gold being softer, one could argue that if put to the ‘torture’ test and made to ‘write’ kilometres upon kilometres of ink lines continuously in a tester machine, the 14K gold nib would probably last longer. I don't think there is any appreciable difference in material longevity between the two, in manual handling and normal usage by a human user.

[MidSouthern-Dad]

1 hour ago, A Smug Dill said:

No. If anything, with 18K gold being softer, one could argue that if put to the ‘torture’ test and made to ‘write’ kilometres upon kilometres of ink lines continuously in a tester machine, the 14K gold nib would probably last longer.

This would only be true if your tipping material broke off your nib, and you are writing with the gold tines.

Otherwise, the wear of writing is borne by the hard platinum / iridium / alloy tipping material.

In my experience, the 18K nibs are easier to adjust, as the metal deforms more easily.  The 14K tend to stay in adjustment longer, though it is more difficult to adjust them.

[arcfide]

I think a lot of it has to do more with the design of the nib than the materials, but materials probably play some part in it. Here's what Platinum says, translated to English:

 

| プラチナ万年筆 (platinum-pen.co.jp)

 

But on the other hand, MB went with 18kt for their Calligraphy nib. 

 

I think it's all a matter of trade-offs. 

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, arcfide said:

Here's what Platinum says, translated to English:

 

| プラチナ万年筆 (platinum-pen.co.jp)

 

18K
It has very high acid resistance and can withstand years of use without rusting or corroding even with acidic ink.
Flexibility is high in comparison to the ones with same nib shape.

14K
It has very high acid resistance and can withstand years of use without rusting or corroding even with acidic ink.
It has an appropriate flexibility that is optimal for the strong and weak brushstroke of Japanese characters.
 

Well, the 14K gold nib on the Platinum Vicoh PTL-5000A is already quite soft and elastic, and I don't think I'm getting much more out of an 18K gold nib of the same design and size.

 

The only other Platinum 18K gold nib is a President F nib factory-fitted on a Izumo, and I don't find it either softer than a 14K gold #3776 nib or soft at all; and since I don't think there is a 14K gold President nib or an 18K gold #3776 nib (although the latter may actually exist for special/limited edition pens I don't know much about), I'm in no position to do a like-for-like comparison to verify Platinum's claim.

[arcfide]

33 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

18K
It has very high acid resistance and can withstand years of use without rusting or corroding even with acidic ink.
Flexibility is high in comparison to the ones with same nib shape.

14K
It has very high acid resistance and can withstand years of use without rusting or corroding even with acidic ink.
It has an appropriate flexibility that is optimal for the strong and weak brushstroke of Japanese characters.
 

Well, the 14K gold nib on the Platinum Vicoh PTL-5000A is already quite soft and elastic, and I don't think I'm getting much more out of an 18K gold nib of the same design and size.

 

The only other Platinum 18K gold nib is a President F nib factory-fitted on a Izumo, and I don't find it either softer than a 14K gold #3776 nib or soft at all; and since I don't think there is a 14K gold President nib or an 18K gold #3776 nib (although the latter may actually exist for special/limited edition pens I don't know much about), I'm in no position to do a like-for-like comparison to verify Platinum's claim.

 

Even harder is that this "claim" has to be filtered through the obvious translation difficulties here. And I have noticed that Platinum nibs are distinctly thicker in appearance compared to my pilots, which is probably to account for a significant amount of their increased stiffness over the Pilot options. Then there's whether they mean "soft" when they say flexible, or whether they mean "springy". 

 

I have seen other sites mirror Platinum's claims about 14K being a good "compromise" alloy as one of the components in getting the desired feel in a nib. I can't recall which ones now, though.  I think it was one of the nibmeisters. 

 

 

[pearlfox]

I seem to recall somewhere on Mottishaw's site (maybe in the Spencerian write-up) that 14k was better for flex mods than 18k.  But I'm too lazy to go digging for it, so take this as hearsay.  Or heresy.  I don't care which.

[TheDutchGuy]

I’d not be able to tell the difference during a blindfold test. Whether or not I like a nib has to do with many factors, but 14k or 18k isn’t one of them.

[Nethermark]

Here is what Richard Binder says on this issue:

 

"

Most high-quality nibs are made of gold. But pure gold (24K, or 1000 by European measure) is no good; it is too soft, malleable, and ductile. But when it is alloyed in appropriate proportions with suitable combinations of other elements (silver, copper, nickel, etc.) it becomes harder and exhibits other desirable properties such as the ability to be tempered.

It happens that there is a gray zone in the range of alloys when measured by gold content. That zone falls around 14K (585). Alloys containing significantly more gold tend to lack some desirable qualities, most especially flexibility (the resilience to bend significantly and return to the original shape over and over again). Many 18K (750) nibs, for instance, are springy (“soft”), but that’s not true flexibility. People who believe the sales hype frequently end up sending their 18K nibs out for repair after they’ve sprung them by applying more pressure than the nibs could handle. During the Golden Age, from about the end of World War I to the beginning of World War II, French makers produced some wonderful flexible 18K nibs; but as a rule, modern 18K alloys are too soft — bending too easily and staying bent — or too hard, resisting until the point of catastrophic failure. This is why responsible nib technicians refuse to add flexibility to 18K nibs.

Alloys containing less gold, such as 9K (375), can be made to exhibit even better flexibility than 14K alloys. But these low-karat alloys suffer from a greater potential for corrosion, so there is a balance. That balance falls at about 14K; 14K nibs can combine both superb writing characteristics and excellent corrosion resistance."

 

You can see his whole article here

 

So 14K is better for flex nibs than 18K or higher K, because 18K is softer and more prone to bend and stay bend.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I see I've not visited Richard's site lately, but the info stayed in the back of my mind. Bend easier, & stay bent.

 

I'll just remind my self to baby my 18K nibs even though all but one is regular flex. I'm only slightly hamfisted now, so will have to think lightly more often.

I still haven't inked my 'new' pens, but I got to empty pens in the pen cup or the two pen desk stand first.

[MuddyWaters]

The remaining metals in the alloy mixture probably have a lot to do with the characteristics of the nib, but we do not have that information published. To make broad judgments only on the karat measure is thus misleading. 

[bunnspecial]

9 hours ago, MuddyWaters said:

The remaining metals in the alloy mixture probably have a lot to do with the characteristics of the nib, but we do not have that information published. To make broad judgments only on the karat measure is thus misleading. 

XRF should ID them, or at least on an unplated nib. 
 

Traditionally, gold is alloyed with copper and silver. The proportions of each dictate the color. Varying those can give yellow, rose, green, and white, although those are on something of a continuum. Many folks don’t recognize green cold unless they see it next to white, while “white” gold is kind of a very pale yellow color(white gold jewelry now is almost always rhodium plated to give the bright white that many folks desire). 
 

A given proportion of copper and silver will also dictate things like the hardness and springiness. Even to a lot of chemists, though, metallurgy is sort of black magic(and I say that as some ones who has a graduate degree looking at surface chemistry of precious metals and alloys of them) and the effect of a particular metal in an alloy isn’t cut and dry. Even a small amount of something else can dramatically change things. 

[TitoThePencilPimp]

It depends on the manufacturer and how the nibs were constructed. But in theory, 18kt nibs should be more flexible, but also easier to bend. However, in practice, it varies from company to company.

 

Lets look at Pelikan: I see no difference between the steel m200 nibs, m400-600 14kt nibs, and the 18kt m800 nib. They are nails, the steel nib of the m200 has a bit of bounce (spring) to it, but I would call it semi-flex. There is no discernible writing difference for me. However, I lied and said that no difference exist. Te only difference between the m200 steel nibs and the gold pelikan nibs, is that the steel writes more true to size. That is all.

 

But, the nib on the m1000 (18kt) is very soft, and different from Pelikans other nibs.

 

Sailor:

 

I notice no difference between the 14kt and 21kt nibs. I do not think they offer a 18kt nib. I believe I have seen 18kt nibs on some of the older pocket pen Sailors, but I can be wrong. I never bothered to own one, let alone research it.

 

There is a difference between the ion plated gold nibs. It is a bit more bouncy, and easy to bend if you have a ulfsark writing pressure. But not semi-flex. One can do without this nib.

 

I only have one KOP (Ebonite). Again, nice nib, but its still a nail (like most sailor nibs).

 

Pilot: There is a difference between 14kt and 18kt nibs (on average). But consider the pilot 14k sf nib. Really soft for a 14kt nib...

[A Smug Dill]

12 minutes ago, TitoThePencilPimp said:

I notice no difference between the 14kt and 21kt nibs. I do not think they offer a 18kt nib. I believe I have seen 18kt nibs on some of the older pocket pen Sailors,

 

Sailor doesn't offer 18K gold nibs on any of its current models. However, if you or anyone wants to try a new or modern Sailor 18K gold nib, get a Cross Peerless 125 (and see how the nib redeems the entire retail product).

 

9 minutes ago, TitoThePencilPimp said:

Pilot: There is a difference between 14kt and 18kt nibs (on average).

 

I haven't noticed any difference in the writing experience between the 14K gold #10 F nib on my Pilot Custom Kaede and the 18K gold #10 F nib on my Pilot ‘Hannya Shingyo‘.

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

8 hours ago, TitoThePencilPimp said:

.

Lets look at Pelikan: I see no difference between the steel m200 nibs, m400-600 14kt nibs, and the 18kt m800 nib.

They are nails, (No!!!!!)

the steel nib of the m200 has a bit of bounce (spring) to it, but I would call it semi-flex. (No!!!!)

There is no discernible writing difference for me. However, I lied and said that no difference exist. Te only difference between the m200 steel nibs and the gold pelikan nibs, is that the steel writes more true to size. (Yes!!!) That is all.

 

But, the nib on the m1000 (18kt) is very soft, and different from Pelikans other nibs.

 

 

'50-97 Pelikan nibs wrote with a nice clean line.

 

It depends on what era, I have a post war 100n, that is superflex.....an Ibis that is semi-flex. My '50-65 era pens are semi-flex.....outside my regular flex 120 and my D nibbed 400, which is a nail's nail. (The H is a nail)

"82-91 W.Germany nibbed pens are nice and springy regular flex, a tad more springy than the '91-97 era regular flex. I have a 200 OB, a small 600 OBB, and a (new) W.Germany 800.......once I trans-mailed one to Spain, in the German seller refused to mail out of Germany. A decade ago I thought a 800 a bit too big for me.....but I did say I'd never buy any 800 that wasn't a W.Germany one. 

You do have to have both the W.Germany and to '97 Germany nib to see the difference.

 

Era '98 to now....the nice springy regular flex is perhaps what the Japanese call 'soft', got enough problem chasing German pens with out falling into other traps. It is still the same width and geometry of nib as the '82-97, the '50-65 were stubs outside the 120.

The 800 became a nail, the 400/600 became semi-nails.......big fat round nibs for folks who prefer to hold a fountain pen like a ball point and to hell with the rest of us.

Personally such big fat round characterless nibs can be made a stub or CI as a cure.

From '98-@2010 Bock made Pelikans nibs to Pelikan's spec's.........massive complaints. Pelikan took the nibs back in house......same massive complaints in they were as they made Bock make them..... It was Not Bock's fault....but Pelikan's for changing the nib to make less repairs and get crossover ball point and roller ball users into fountain pens with out that hugely complicated learning to hold a fountain pen properly. Don't want to show how uncoordinated they are by giving an instruction booklet, they might not buy such a complicated thing....so it was better to ruin the nib so less nib repair and ...having looked into the crystal ball at the start of Internet, knew, that the sale of good used pens would skyrocket to those ept enough to wish a nice ride and clean line.....................Such a decision was more than likely a ball point using bookkeeper.

We are ruled by book keepers.....

 

The 1000..........from '98 to @ 2010 when Bock made it was semi-flex....took one of my semi-flex pens down to the pen shop and tested way back then. There was a lot of controversy about if it was semi-flex or just nice and springy.

But everyone was right, when Pelikan took it back in House they made the 1000 a regular flex....less bent nibs. Have a post Bock, 1005 in OBB.

I'd have to look to see if the 'modern' 1000's nib is softer than a 200's....but do agree it's softer than the semi-nail 400/600 or 800 nail.