Efnir: Montblanc Permanent Blue

[max dog]

I've always seen fans of Sailor, Pilot, and Platinum try to make a case for their converters. Fact is these brands produce inadequate converters. Integrated piston fillers like ones found in Montblanc and Pelikan provide superior ink flow consistency. Converters are hit and miss, especially the big 3 Japanese brands. Ink surface tension issues impeding proper ink flow plague converters. Some are better than others.

Edited September 4, 2020 by max dog

[max dog]

When piston starts to feel a little tight I run some MB Permanent Blue and it lubricates it plus the numerous other benefits that make this one of the best inks on the market. You just have to flush clean the pen well between refills. And dont leave ink in the pen if you dont intend to use it almost daily. Then you wont have any problems. Its an ink that should be used with intent.

[Olya]

It is not about adequate or inadequate converters or pistons or being a massive fan of a brand and coming to its defense (deservedly or undeservedly).

I think Dill wrote good posts detailing.

 

The point is the mechanism of a piston is the same be it a shyte converter or a luxe self filler, so if an ink isn't good for a piston and would cause pistons to seize up, you'd see that already in the converters.

 

Yet, I have never experienced that nor has anyone else (I am going by reviews and me stalking this place, websites with reviews and the reddit fp sub).

 

I have only once needed to regrease a Pelikan of mine and that was entirely my fault, as I used to flush the pen with warm water and that stripped the grease quicker (by "warm" I mean too warm, not hot (that's bad in any case), but def too warm, coming close to hot! Oops). Since my switch to cold water, the grease hasn't worn off.

 

I've had Sailor, Pilot, Pelikan, Waterman, Kyo no Oto, Diamine, Parker Quink and J Herbin ink in my Pelikans (and my other pens, converters and carts) and haven't noticed a single problem yet.

 

I have read though of people having trouble with Montblanc pigment inks and these causing issues with their Montblanc and other brand pens, but since I am not really in the market for MB pigment ink, I haven't paid too much attention to people's experiences with these inks so lack any details.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Olya

[LizEF]

I've always seen fans of Sailor, Pilot, and Platinum try to make a case for their converters. Fact is these brands produce inadequate converters. Integrated piston fillers like ones found in Montblanc and Pelikan provide superior ink flow consistency. Converters are hit and miss, especially the big 3 Japanese brands. Ink surface tension issues impeding proper ink flow plague converters. Some are better than others.

This may be your experience, but in my experience, my cartridge / converter pens (Japanese, American, European, even cheap Chinese) all flow without problems, just like my TWSBI Eco, Pelikan m405, Visconti Homo Sapiens, WingSung 601, and FPR Indus. When I have a pen that doesn't work right - whatever the cause - I fix it or get rid of it. I have more Pilot pens than any other single brand, all cartridge / converter, and they all have worked beautifully out of the box. My only problem was with a VP stub nib. My Platinum 3776 and Sailor Pro Gear Slim both work just as well.

 

It's grand that you like your Montblanc and Pelkan pens - you should, if they work well - and MB Permanent Blue - it's a great ink - but there's no need to denigrate other filling systems, inks, or pens universally in order for your experience to be great.

[max dog]

This may be your experience, but in my experience, my cartridge / converter pens (Japanese, American, European, even cheap Chinese) all flow without problems, just like my TWSBI Eco, Pelikan m405, Visconti Homo Sapiens, WingSung 601, and FPR Indus. When I have a pen that doesn't work right - whatever the cause - I fix it or get rid of it. I have more Pilot pens than any other single brand, all cartridge / converter, and they all have worked beautifully out of the box. My only problem was with a VP stub nib. My Platinum 3776 and Sailor Pro Gear Slim both work just as well.

 

It's grand that you like your Montblanc and Pelkan pens - you should, if they work well - and MB Permanent Blue - it's a great ink - but there's no need to denigrate other filling systems, inks, or pens universally in order for your experience to be great.

Out of my approximately 50 fountain pens, about 80% are cartridge converter fillers, and a little less than a dozen are integrated piston fillers. I would say I have a pretty good sampling of cartridge converter fillers to form an educated opinion on them, and ink flow reliability across the board in cartridge converters are not on the same level of excellence and consistency as I've found on all my integrated piston fillers.

 

A well respected and long term member at the Montblanc forum shared his experience with Sailor inks and integrated piston fillers and so I based my claim on that. I have used other very saturated ink brands like Noodlers and Private Reserves in my piston fillers and found after long use, they do reduce the smoothness of the piston mechanism, and after running more lubricated Montblanc or Pelikan inks, the smoothness returned. So I find the claim about Sailors not being as lubricated as MB and Pelikan inks very plausible as Sailor inks share similar charactersitcs in saturation and pop as Noodlers and Private Reserve.

 

If you do a review about MB Permanent Blue but state you prefer Sailor Inks, well it's only fair for big fans of the Perm Blue like myself to express an opinion. I don't see how stating of facts about my experience with converters (across many brands) constitutes denigrating them. I'm just stating my experience and offering an alternative perspective about MB Permanent Blue that perhaps yourself and other fans of Sailor inks might not be aware of.

 

I am puzzled by Smug Dills long posts making a case that integrated piston fillers are not higher quality than converters. I never started that debate. I am talking about inks and how compared to Sailor, the MB Permanent Blue is better for keeping integrated piston fillers lubricated. But given he brought it up, I will express my opinion about converters, especially the poor experiences I've had with all my Pilot converters, CON 20, CON 40, CON 50 and CON 70. I don't hate them, they are what exists in many of my fave and most prized pens, but I know of their short comings, and if given a choice I go for integrated piston fillers, but not all brands offer them, and so I cope with cartridge/converters.

Edited September 5, 2020 by max dog

[A Smug Dill]

A well respected and long term member at the Montblanc forum shared his experience with Sailor inks and integrated piston fillers and so I based my claim on that.

I heard Sailor inks aren't good for piston fillers. Causes them to go stiff, ...

Montblanc is neither synonymous with "integrated piston fillers", nor the only maker of such. If you want to make a general statement about "piston fillers", then the Wing Sung 3008 and 698, PenBBS 494 and 309, Pilot Custom Heritage 92, Sailor Profit Realo and so on are also equally valid and equally important examples of that class of pens, which you claim (hearsay that) Sailor inks will adversely affect in a specific manner. You didn't just say ">$500 piston fillers", "piston fillers of European manufacture" or "Montblanc piston fillers"; and, if your claim was that Sailor inks make Montblanc piston fillers go stiff, I'll happily take your word (or that of the unidentified "well respected and long term member") for it since I don't have any, and count it as testament of a specific weakness in Montblanc's piston mechanism, since Sailor inks don't and didn't cause the integrated piston mechanism in my (yes, much cheaper) Wing Sung and PenBBS piston fillers, or Pelikan and Aurora piston fillers for that matter, to go stiff and/or seize up.

 

... so I avoid Sailor inks in piston fillers.

By all means, please continue to avoid using Sailor inks in your piston fillers, because you either know or imagine they're particularly susceptible, or just feel they're particularly precious to you personally to risk.

 

I am puzzled by Smug Dills long posts making a case that integrated piston fillers are not higher quality than converters. I never started that debate. I am talking about inks and how compared to Sailor,

That wasn't what I was addressing at all. See the above quote. You made an unqualified (as in not suitably limited in scope, and not as in you're in no position to form and express an informed opinion!) claim about piston-fillers' mechanism in relation to Sailor inks. If you merely claimed that Montblanc inks are more lubricating than Sailor inks, and/or Montblanc inks are better for Montblanc piston-fillers because they're from the same small pond and are designed to work with each other, I'd have nothing to say or dispute about it.

 

I was arguing to dispel any undue wariness on the part of users of dozens of other brands of piston-fillers, and even users of Montblanc piston-fillers who don't think the pens are any more special or precious than a PenBBS, Pilot or Aurora, with regard to using Sailor inks in piston-fillers. I gave the rational reasons why the risk is unsubstantiated, because generally a piston-filler's piston mechanism in no different materially and mechanically than one in a rotary-driven converter; and piston-fillers in various price ranges can be disassembled for deep cleaning and lubricating if need be. "Piston fillers" are not inherently better mechanically, more mechanically or chemically sensitive, less affordable, difficult to disassemble to maintain, more precious, ... nor are they all Montblanc.

 

I'm not unduly putting down Montblanc, but merely rejecting your attempt to talk up the brand using discussion of inks as a lead-in. It's just a brand with good marketing, and my goal is to reduce it to being no better, no worse and no different than other piston-fillers; they do not stand out, but are ordinary in the world of fountain pens. Whereas you seem to want to talk it up by putting other brands and other filling mechanisms down because it doesn't have enough virtue or offer enough advantages in its own right.

 

You prefer Montblanc. You prefer piston-fillers. You prefer larger ink capacity. We get it. You don't need to justify your preferences, they aren't objectively better or worse, more educated or more eccentric, than anyone else's preferences. The rest of us are just encouraging people to keep an open mind and not automatically adopt fellow members' views and tastes; thus we "argue" by presenting reasons for not just blindly accepting claims.

 

Yes, that may well mean I'm actively working against your gaining influence with fellow members and getting them to hold Montblanc in the same high regard as you obviously do. I strongly encourage you to post more of your own reviews of your Montblanc pens and inks and sell their merit to others.

Edited September 5, 2020 by A Smug Dill

[LizEF]

...If you do a review about MB Permanent Blue but state you prefer Sailor Inks, well it's only fair for big fans of the Perm Blue like myself to express an opinion. ...

I have no problem with you posting your opinion - I welcome it. I have a problem with some of your statements which have had the tone of not just "my personal experience" but of "absolute, objective, indisputable fact and anyone who disagrees doesn't know what they're talking about".

 

A well respected and long term member at the Montblanc forum shared his experience with Sailor inks and piston fillers and so I based my claim on that. .....

And another user here has said the ink tends to form a gunk under the nib. And another responder to my review elsewhere said that after about a week in the pen, the hard starts/clogs I experienced cease and the ink flows smoothly. Obviously, every user and pen is unique and one person's experience may or may not predict another's.

 

...I am puzzled by Smug Dills long posts making a case that integrated piston fillers are not higher quality than converters. I never started that debate. I am talking about inks and how compared to Sailor, the MB Permanent Blue is better for keeping integrated piston fillers lubricated. ...

 

I don't think the argument was about quality per se, but about mechanical functionality - they're all the same - a rubber-encircled plunger on a screw inside a tube - just one's smaller than the other. Both benefit from lubrication and their performance is hampered by lack of lubrication.

 

... I have used other very saturated ink brands like Noodlers and Private Reserves in my piston fillers and found after long use, they do reduce the smoothness of the piston mechanism, and after running more lubricated Montblanc or Pelikan inks, the smoothness returned. So I find the claim about Sailors not being as lubricated as MB and Pelikan inks very plausible as Sailor inks share similar charactersitcs in saturation and pop as Noodlers and Private Reserve....

 

In my experience, Sailor inks are nowhere near as over-saturated or problematic as Noodler's. From what I've read, the same is true in relation to Private Reserve (I've never used their inks, so I don't personally know). Further, I have frequently seen complaints about the behavior of both Noodler's and Private Reserve, but not (nearly so often?) about Sailor (I'm not remembering right now any complaints about Sailor, which isn't to say they aren't there, but suggests it's far less common than the other two). In short, I don't think it's correct to lump Sailor in with Noodler's and Private Reserve as far as saturation goes.

 

Meanwhile, I respect that you have various experiences and preferences based on those experiences and want to recommend what works for you. My experiences have differed from your own, not in terms of how MBPB behaves (and certainly not in regards to any MB pen, which I've never owned), and even been opposite from your own as far as I can tell (as far as other integrated filling systems, Japanese converters, and Sailor inks). Further, I posit that many people's experiences have differed from yours as far as Sailor inks, which have an exceptional reputation. Regardless, I hope we can respect each other's views, and end the debate on agreeing that our experiences differ and not let it get unpleasant.

Edited September 5, 2020 by LizEF

[max dog]

 

I'm not unduly putting down Montblanc, but merely rejecting your attempt to talk up the brand using discussion of inks as a lead-in. It's just a brand with good marketing, and my goal is to reduce it to being no better, no worse and no different than other piston-fillers; they do not stand out, but are ordinary in the world of fountain pens. Whereas you seem to want to talk it up by putting other brands and other filling mechanisms down because it doesn't have enough virtue or offer enough advantages in its own right.

 

You prefer Montblanc. You prefer piston-fillers. You prefer larger ink capacity. We get it. You don't need to justify your preferences, they aren't objectively better or worse, more educated or more eccentric, than anyone else's preferences. The rest of us are just encouraging people to keep an open mind and not automatically adopt fellow members' views and tastes; thus we "argue" by presenting reasons for not just blindly accepting claims.

 

 

 

Smugdill, I never stated in this post MB was superior....You seem to be defaulting this into a Montblanc value discussion. In response to your lead in about converters being as good mechanically as integrated piston fillers, my only point is in my experience I find integrated piston fillers (from TWSBI ECO to my Pelikan M200) deliver more consistent ink flow than cartridge converters. Now that is my experience and I won't get more absolute than that. You may disagree and that is your prerogative. As far as integrated piston filler goes, I personally think Pelikan produces the best integrated piston fillers given their experience with it going back to the early 20th century and pioneering the first telescopic piston design, and I've never had an issue with a Pelikan, built like tanks.

 

 

Meanwhile, I respect that you have various experiences and preferences based on those experiences and want to recommend what works for you. My experiences have differed from your own, not in terms of how MBPB behaves (and certainly not in regards to any MB pen, which I've never owned), and even been opposite from your own as far as I can tell (as far as other integrated filling systems, Japanese converters, and Sailor inks). Further, I posit that many people's experiences have differed from yours as far as Sailor inks, which have an exceptional reputation. Regardless, I hope we can respect each other's views, and end the debate on agreeing that our experiences differ and not let it get unpleasant.

LizEF, fair enough. We are all entitled to our opinions and mileages vary in fountainpendome

Edited September 5, 2020 by max dog

[agentdaffy007]

Max dog: My MB 149 piston is starting to get stiff. I will test your theory out once I am done with my MB Corn Poppy Red fill. I used to love MB PB but the lack of using it everyday makes the pen hard start. I do however love Sailor Sei Boku from the smoothness on paper to the color to the waterproofness. Both inks are good but I give an edge to Sailor.

[NeverTapOut]

Thank you Liz for the effort you put into these reviews. I bought a bottle of this ink and it arrived today.  I cannot get it to write in any of my pens. My pens are not dry writers nor are they wet.

I like the color and the qualities of the ink. I would like it better it I could get it to work : (

Actually this is my second try with the ink. Maybe instead of writing with HP 32 Premium I should change to a more absorbent non fountain pen friendly paper?

Regards,

David

[LizEF]

1 hour ago, NeverTapOut said:

Thank you Liz for the effort you put into these reviews.

  You are most welcome!

 

1 hour ago, NeverTapOut said:

I bought a bottle of this ink and it arrived today.  I cannot get it to write in any of my pens.

 

1 hour ago, NeverTapOut said:

My pens are not dry writers nor are they wet.

I like the color and the qualities of the ink. I would like it better it I could get it to work : (

Actually this is my second try with the ink. Maybe instead of writing with HP 32 Premium I should change to a more absorbent non fountain pen friendly paper?

Certainly trying a more absorbent paper should at least give you another data point.  Even a friendly but less-slick paper might help - such as 68gsm TR or Midori MD.

 

Does it not flow at all, or does it skip and hard start?  Dry too fast on the nib?  Looks like I had problems with it drying rather quickly on the nib, just not as seriously as some other permanent inks.  You could try dipping the nib in water, just to see how that impacts flow.

 

You might try diluting a small amount - e.g. add a drop or two of water to the converter or to a mL in a sample vial - and see if that flows any better.  You could also try the liquid dish soap / glycerine / Vanness White Ligntning route (again, on a small sample) to see if it makes any difference.  (I suggest this more for information gathering than as a permanent solution.)

 

You should also check the bottle, make sure it's full and not showing any signs of evaporation.

 

Someone either here or on reddit reported that it behaved better after the first fill, which makes me wonder if the ink somehow coats the innards of the pen, or something...

 

Anywho, don't know if any of that helps, but I hope you're able to get the ink to cooperate.  (Off to bed now, but I'll check back in the morning.)

[txomsy]

That's odd. I've been using MB Permanent blue like forever and never had any issue with it.

 

[NeverTapOut]

2 hours ago, txomsy said:

That's odd. I've been using MB Permanent blue like forever and never had any issue with it.

 

 

8 hours ago, LizEF said:

  You are most welcome!

 

 

Certainly trying a more absorbent paper should at least give you another data point.  Even a friendly but less-slick paper might help - such as 68gsm TR or Midori MD.

 

Does it not flow at all, or does it skip and hard start?  Dry too fast on the nib?  Looks like I had problems with it drying rather quickly on the nib, just not as seriously as some other permanent inks.  You could try dipping the nib in water, just to see how that impacts flow.

 

You might try diluting a small amount - e.g. add a drop or two of water to the converter or to a mL in a sample vial - and see if that flows any better.  You could also try the liquid dish soap / glycerine / Vanness White Ligntning route (again, on a small sample) to see if it makes any difference.  (I suggest this more for information gathering than as a permanent solution.)

 

You should also check the bottle, make sure it's full and not showing any signs of evaporation.

 

Someone either here or on reddit reported that it behaved better after the first fill, which makes me wonder if the ink somehow coats the innards of the pen, or something...

 

Anywho, don't know if any of that helps, but I hope you're able to get the ink to cooperate.  (Off to bed now, but I'll check back in the morning.)

I will try your suggestions. Today is a bad concussion headache day. I have been battling this for a year. I did notice that the ink was sticking to the sides on a converter. Also when I took apart a MB 149 I noticed that the feed had a coating on it and changed color the feed slightly. I could not get the pens to write a complete word. I also use EF nibs as well. I wanted to stick with MB ink because if the feed ever clogged I could blame it on the pigments...or the what MB calls "particles"...I have to double check that. I will say I love the review and the color. I wanted this to be my new MB Royal Blue. Maybe instead of doing client work today I will pen play once the meds and ice pack on my head kick in : )

[LizEF]

2 minutes ago, NeverTapOut said:

I will try your suggestions. Today is a bad concussion headache day. I have been battling this for a year. I did notice that the ink was sticking to the sides on a converter. Also when I took apart a MB 149 I noticed that the feed had a coating on it and changed color the feed slightly. I could not get the pens to write a complete word. I also use EF nibs as well. I wanted to stick with MB ink because if the feed ever clogged I could blame it on the pigments...or the what MB calls "particles"...I have to double check that. I will say I love the review and the color. I wanted this to be my new MB Royal Blue. Maybe instead of doing client work today I will pen play once the meds and ice pack on my head kick in : )

So sorry about your headaches!  A year of them sounds like a nightmare.  Hope the meds kick in quickly.

 

It seems especially strange for a MB not to like an MB ink.  Perhaps a really deep clean is needed for the feed...  Best wishes for successful pen play!

[txomsy]

Take care of you pain first. I find it is little use doing things when my mind is somewhere else -like pain-. And if it is been going on for so long, you certainly need the doctors to identify the source. Get well, and then all the rest will somehow sort out by itself.

[maclink]

I've been using Montblanc Permanent Black for months now and am appreciating it more and more.  It's a deep black with good flow.  It resists feathering to an admirable level and it also makes the nib sort of glide across the paper without resistance, even when using paper that tends to lead to a resistance while writing with some inks.  Finally, it washes out really well making it very pen friendly for a permanent ink.  I've used the ink in several pens without trouble, including a Lamy 2000, MB146, Aurora Optima, MB Classique (several fills without flushing over 4 months), Lamy CP-1 and Pelikan M200.  

 

Unfortunately, my experience with MB Permanent Blue is different.  The formulation is different since MB Permanent Black gives off a distinct smell as it evaporates.  A special solvent is used, it seems.  I don't get this smell with Permanent Blue.  

 

For some reason, my MB permanent blue dries on the nib tip between uses and after surprisingly short periods, even while the pen lays flat while capped.  I don't know what that's about. 🤔  My latest experience is with a Schon Design Ultem, a clipcless pen with a rubber band-aided seal for the cap. It came with a Stub nib.  I flushed it and inked it up with MontBlanc Permanent Blue.  It wrote well but, after about 1.5 hours without use, it hard started secondary to drying out a bit at the tip.  I recapped the pen after uneventful use and after about 5 hours I returned to it and it wouldn't write!!  I aborted the trial, flushed it out, and inked it up with Robert Oster's Motor Oil.  So far,  absolutely no hard starts or skipping with immediate, excellent flow, even after 18hours without use.  With this pen, I expect it to write after weeks without use.

 

I have therefore not been inclined to use MB Permanent Blue at all since this is the 3rd experience of this nature that I've had with it.  I don't know if it's the bottle that I have.

[LizEF]

Thanks for adding your experiences, @maclink!

[LizEF]

Here's the line width measurement. The line is one of those used for dry time.  Magnification is 100x.  The grid is 100x100µm.  The scale is 330µm, with eleven divisions of 30µm each.  The line width for this ink is roughly 270µm.