Does Anyone Use Red Ink Anymore?

[txomsy]

As I said, I rather see it in an "oppositive" way (or opp-negative perhaps?). When someone coming from a different culture has different expectations we always have two choices: a) explain the differences and help them overcome their prejudices or b ) impose our views/yield to theirs.

 

Option b ) is always faster and less complicated. And may potentially lead to some sorts of trouble in the long run. Or at least makes everybody poorer by limiting our capacity to view the world in other lights, to adapt and to sympathize with others. Personally, I feel uncomfortable with this, for my experience has shown me that the broader I can think the more problems I can solve (YMMV) and I've had some bad experiences (but that's only me) with intransigent bigots.

 

Option a) is more difficult and takes time and explaining, it requires that you make it very clear you are not imposing your views, but helping them adapt to a different environment/culture, and may lead to trouble in the short run. If there is a shock for them in some expectation (say red color), they'll have to face the shock sooner or later (maybe when they see traffic lights or an accounting sheet or corporate culture). Personally, I think that it is better that they adapt before, in a controlled, understanding and welcoming environment. This will give them additional tools and knowledge to face life, will help them know, accept and adapt to other people preferences. It will actually make them richer and wealthier, stronger and better citizens.

 

So, I feel tempted to oppose the view that education should take the easy road looking for quick acceptance because I think it (likely) will be more positive to expand their horizons and tolerance. Not to say you have to force it mercilessly, but to guide them through a new culture.

Edited September 27, 2020 by txomsy

[bayindirh]

 

But then there are some globally acknowledged rules... how about traffic lights where red is universally used... would that change too? or would that be something offensive to live by?

 

Should there be be a limit to adapting to someone's thinking?

Oh, we're still debating the same thing. I'm with txomsy by the way.

 

Traffic lights/signs vs. grading papers is a textbook example of apples to oranges comparison. While the color is the same, the motivation behind them is completely different.

• Red in traffic signs want to grab attention because they signal danger. If you're offended by a red light, consequences would be fatal.
• Red in paper grading / marking up preferred because it's high contrast with black and attention grabbing, that's all. Using a different color doesn't affect grading.

Let's turn back to issue of offending.

 

When I've said that I'd use green for grading papers and marking them up to not to upset people, my words are taken as "I'd change my grading pen for folks who are offended". No. I'd and will always use green regardless of the emotions of the other party (if you're fond of red, sorry I don't do red). There are some reasons for that

• Panic, punishment, berating and humiliation is not a good tool to motivate people to learn and study.
  • I'm a prime example. If you humiliate me for a bad grade, you're not my teacher. You're an enemy. I'll just pass then course, and move on. I'll learn what I need later.
    • Also, seeing a lot of red (ink) on a paper triggers panic in me since I'm alive. It bothers me. I can't read it and understand my mistakes. I lock up.
  • I have more than zero stories about my teachers who openly told me that I'm not capable of learning what they are teaching and, suggested me to pursue easier professions. I'm currently at least equal with my academically more accomplished peers. So, hey.
• Being open, vulnerable and sincere with people always brings better relationships, communication and outcomes.
  • If they're hostile towards you anyway, using red ink won't change anything but, will heat the situation, because red has inherent meanings which triggers subconscious mind.
• I never do anything to anyone which I don't want to experience myself. I carefully sow, so I reap good or neutral things.

Education professionals (teachers, instructors and professors) somehow love to assert their dominance and their power via their words, grades and things written on the exam papers. This is the easy way, both asserting your power and breaking the students in the process. Do you want to raise harsh human beings who, also do the same thing? Then go ahead. That's your choice. Or, do you want to connect with your students, understand them and improve both yourself and the success rate of your students? Then you need to take road b and adapt, improve and grow, until the day you die.

 

Using a different color to pass a simple trigger and panic mechanism of human brain to better reach your students, to forge stronger bonds and to be a better human is a simple, cool hack. It doesn't take anything else away. Your papers will look like green fields or seashores instead of poppy fields or a butchery. That's all... Using a different ink doesn't make you less disciplined, less strict or generally lesser of an education professional, or anything.

 

My most powerful teachers were the softer ones. Both were good friends and they laughed at me a lot for my stupid exam mistakes, when we're alone in their room. I laughed with them too because they were sincere. I always got the top marks from them, without even studying... So, go figure.

Edited September 27, 2020 by bayindirh

[como]

I am happy to be mindful of foreign customs, but they'd better to be dead sure of what the customs are. I don't want to find out later that I have been tip-toeing in my own country for some false customs that people from the same foreign country can't even agree on.

[MBDostoevsky]

Oh, we're still debating the same thing. I'm with txomsy by the way.

 

Traffic lights/signs vs. grading papers is a textbook example of apples to oranges comparison. While the color is the same, the motivation behind them is completely different.

• Red in traffic signs want to grab attention because they signal danger. If you're offended by a red light, consequences would be fatal.
• Red in paper grading / marking up preferred because it's high contrast with black and attention grabbing, that's all. Using a different color doesn't affect grading.

 

I don't agree with txomsy's both ways... it is not about right or wrong or educating others.... it simply doesn't work... especially when differences are driven by religious values and deep-rooted cultural norms.... you can't explain or correct anything....

 

I don't think so that the argument of 'motivation behind them is completely different' holds in this case... it is the outward appearance that counts in both cases... people don't care about motivations, they observe what is outward and react accordingly... hence i still find it uneasy to understand that the same people who are sensitive to red being used in grading should accept red being used in other indicators (apart from funeral inscriptions).

 

However, i don't see the point of continuing this discussion. The question is about red inks and grading ink preferences.

Edited September 27, 2020 by MBDostoevsky

[MBDostoevsky]

When I've said that I'd use green for grading papers and marking them up to not to upset people, my words are taken as "I'd change my grading pen for folks who are offended". No. I'd and will always use green regardless of the emotions of the other party (if you're fond of red, sorry I don't do red). There are some reasons for that

 

I was always intrigued by green being used as a grading color as it was more close to nature than anything.

Edited September 27, 2020 by MBDostoevsky

[MBDostoevsky]

I am happy to be mindful of foreign customs, but they'd better to be dead sure of what the customs are. I don't want to find out later that I have been tip-toeing in my own country for some false customs that people from the same foreign country can't even agree on.

 

Very True....

[txomsy]

It's OK.

 

My point was that I see no reason to favour one color over another, other than perceptual differences (as in being color blind and unable to tell red from green). Hence, to the OP question, the plain answer should be, from my point of view, why not?

 

I do find red tiresome for long reads, but that's me under my perceptual (or maybe cultural) background. But, as bayindirh, I do find it provides a strong contrast. From my own perceptual (or possibly cultural) background I think that green is closer to blue than red. I find red brighter (that may be from old Sheaffer red, even though Sheaffer Skripp green is bright too) than green, and blue darker, which leads me to a "natural" (for me) path to select highlight colors. Black (or blue-black) text can be highlighted switching to blue, green and red in order of progressive "importance" (or impact).

 

Usually, like with traffic lights (and here I do see a connection), I reserve red for the most important things, those that I do not want to miss. For me, brilliant reds, like Sheaffer's Skripp, are a strong call to attention. Cultural or perceptual (or most likely both)? may be, but I find it excellent for underscoring the not-to-be-missed passages/concepts/formulas in my notes.

 

For Titles, I do also like to use a "stronger" color, but bright red is too much, so for those, I prefer a burgundy, or dark red, like MB Burgundy, Parker Penman Ruby or Diamine Claret. It is also less eye-shearing (for me) and easier to read.

 

But then, I'm deciding (or I want to believe I am deciding) based on perceptual choices. I do not mind changing to adapt to others when I'm in their countries, and while I do not ask for it, I do appreciate when someone makes an effort to adapt to mine. For me it's like using chopsticks in China or when I see newly come Chinese fight with cutlery here: when I must give lectures abroad I try to adapt and if I know or am made aware of a color preference, I simply go with the local customs. So, when I do it here, I follow local conventions as well, and explain them to foreign students.

[inkstainedruth]

In reading this thread, I'm minded of a term that some of the scribal/calligraphy folks may have come across in their studies. That term is "rubification". In that particular context, it refers to text in manuscripts that is written in red ink to highlight said specific text. It's not a warning, it's not a threat. It's just a "Hey, take notice". I think it's used a lot in the context of "important" peoples' names. You know, like God.... (Is God scary? Maybe.... )

Red ink used to mark my tests and papers didn't bother me, per se.... Only if the grade was bad.... I keep wondering what a guy I went to college with would have thought about this thread. He was red/green colorblind (and a photography major), and we used to tease him about stuff in a sculpture class we were in together: "Hey, what color is that cabinet in the corner of the studio?" And he would just laugh, because it was just good-natured ribbing, and say "I know it's green -- but it looks grey to me...."

My mother used to use a red ballpoint when proofreading her manuscripts. Why? Because it showed up better on the page against the black typing. Even on the yellow "third" copy that had was made with two sheets of carbon paper in between it and the good copy, as well as the "second" copy.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

edited for formatting

Edited September 27, 2020 by inkstainedruth

[ParramattaPaul]

In reading this thread, I'm minded of a term that some of the scribal/calligraphy folks may have come across in their studies. That term is "rubification". In that particular context, it refers to text in manuscripts that is written in red ink to highlight said specific text. It's not a warning, it's not a threat. It's just a "Hey, take notice". I think it's used a lot in the context of "important" peoples' names. You know, like God.... (Is God scary? Maybe.... )

Red ink used to mark my tests and papers didn't bother me, per se.... Only if the grade was bad.... I keep wondering what a guy I went to college with would have thought about this thread. He was red/green colorblind (and a photography major), and we used to tease him about stuff in a sculpture class we were in together: "Hey, what color is that cabinet in the corner of the studio?" And he would just laugh, because it was just good-natured ribbing, and say "I know it's green -- but it looks grey to me...."

My mother used to use a red ballpoint when proofreading her manuscripts. Why? Because it showed up better on the page against the black typing. Even on the yellow "third" copy that had was made with two sheets of carbon paper in between it and the good copy, as well as the "second" copy.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

edited for formatting

 

Your point that red is used to call attention to what is written is how I have always understood its use.

 

Regarding your mother's proofreading; given that manuscripts are traditionally printed in black, red is traditionally used by proof readers while blue is used by editors professionally.

Edited September 27, 2020 by ParramattaPaul

[BaronWulfraed]

I think it's used a lot in the context of "important" peoples' names. You know, like God.... (Is God scary? Maybe.... )

 

"Red Letter" editions of the New Testament use red for any text that is attributed to Jesus himself. (Typically in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John)

[Mercian]

I have bought some ‘cheerful’ colours for use in greetings cards, and one of them is Edelstein Garnet.
Pelikan nibs lay down enough of it that it is a recognisably-red, ‘warm’ and ‘happy’ colour. Reasonably ‘Christmassy’

 

I may also get some Diamine Red Dragon to use as my ‘serious red’.
I tried their ‘Oxblood’, but in my (‘F’ and ‘M’) pens it is ‘only’ the same colour as the shade of leather for which I presume it is named, rather than being the attention-grabbing ‘slaughterhouse’ colour for which I was hoping.

 

Hmm. Perhaps I might get the effect I wanted if I try running some of it through my M805....

Edited September 28, 2020 by Mercian

[bayindirh]

I have bought some ‘cheerful’ colours for use in greetings cards, and one of them is Edelstein Garnet.

Pelikan nibs lay down enough of it that it is a recognisably-red, ‘warm’ and ‘happy’ colour. Reasonably ‘Christmassy’

 

I may also get some Diamine Red Dragon to use as my ‘serious red’.

I tried their ‘Oxblood’, but in my (‘F’ and ‘M’) pens it is ‘only’ the same colour as the shade of leather for which I presume it is named, rather than being the attention-grabbing ‘slaughterhouse’ colour for which I was hoping.

 

Hmm. Perhaps I might get the effect I wanted if I try running some of it through my M805....

The Oxblood is named after a wine with the same name. We have the same wine with a roughly same name, "Öküzgözü" (means Ox's eye). The color is pretty much match both for the wine and blood color of the said animal.

 

Oxblood is my "titling & emphasis red". It's dark, not eye searing but subtly whispering for attention. For the full effect it requires a wetter than average pen. Funnily a safari with a medium nib can do pretty good justice to the ink, even better if it's a teeny bit wetter which Lamys are well capable with a nicely tuned nib.

Edited September 28, 2020 by bayindirh

[Karmachanic]

Getting ready to load Seitz-Kreuznack Cognac. Less expensive and slightly more intense than Kyo-iro Moonlight of Higashiyama

[eharriett]

Favorite red: KWZ Thief's Red. A great pure red to me.

[Karmachanic]

In reading this thread, I'm minded of a term that some of the scribal/calligraphy folks may have come across in their studies. That term is "rubification".

 

And here's me thinking rubification happens after living in the countryside too long.

[txomsy]

Yuk, the correct term is "rubrication".

 

From it derived the use of "rubric" to refer to signatures, to teacher corrections or to teacher lists of expectations/goals, or to document sections, titles or headings.

 

That is because in old manuscripts, red was used to mark paragraph ends, initials, provide summaries for sections, titles, words to be highlighted, sometims for capitals and, generally, important elements that shouldn't be missed.

 

Red was also associated to aristocracy/kingship and in many occidental cultures reserved for higher classes, and medieval texts were also often "signed" with sealing wax (which was red) stamped with the sender's personal sign, which is why it was associated to signatures (in general) or, more specifically to the non-textual, flourish part of signatures (used to "highlight/embellish" them, or to a personal mark.

 

BTW, on googling I've seen that many English language entries seem to assume rubrics/flourishes are no longer used... (often in connection with handwriting abandonment), but my experience is that in Europe (and to a large extent Africa and Latin America) they have never stopped to be used in most countries. Even many primary school students assume that any handwritten signature should carry some kind of flourish, even if it is as minimal as an underscoring line. Actually, I have to use two boxes for names in attendance sheets for international courses: one for the signature (which may be illegible) and one where I ask participants to write their name clearly in capital letters exactly as they want it in their certificate (to ensure it matches their local requirements).

[txomsy]

Actually, it seems rubrics are still much in use. Just found this reference pointing to databases of modern signatures and dealing with their validation.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4393123/

[WarrenB]

Been idly wondering if I'm in a tiny minority of people who prefer Black Swan In English Roses over Australian Roses. Outnumbered to the point that, ironically, it's not available in the UK anymore.

I could email to confirm, but in the meantime I guess I could look at other dark reds. Maybe finally check Oxblood out.

[N1003U]

Been idly wondering if I'm in a tiny minority of people who prefer Black Swan In English Roses over Australian Roses. Outnumbered to the point that, ironically, it's not available in the UK anymore.

I could email to confirm, but in the meantime I guess I could look at other dark reds. Maybe finally check Oxblood out.

There do seem to be a number of Oxblood fans in these fora. I tried a sample and enjoyed it enough to step up to a 30ml bottle. To my eye it is almost more of a brown than a dark red, but still to me a very attractive hue.

 

I am still after years seeking my personal perfect (or at least optimal) red.

[Karmachanic]

Just mixed 2ml of Octopus Burgundy with .05ml Octopus Shwarz for a dark red, in anticipation of the Kuro-Tamenuri Urushi pen that should be here Monday. Hoping it retains the fabulous shading of the Burgundy.