Does Anyone Use Red Ink Anymore?

[XYZZY]

That would be odd. I keep saying that I use red ink (not exclusively). I have also said that correction color is not most important. I think actually I have been quite clear. It is stubborn intransigence that I have criticized, and the idea that flexibility is "pandering" or "coddling."

 

You're correct, you have said that. I'm just saying that's not how it reads, perhaps because the number of paragraphs put into other points is hiding those statements. Maybe I'm the only one here that lost track of that.

[txomsy]

Both my parents were teachers. I do not remember a single time they stopped using a learning device because it hurt students. That's (also from my point of view) just depriving students of opportunities. You cannot live life (from the very start) trying not to hurt anyone.

 

I'll never forget a baby (one month old) I met in Pediatry. At that age they shouldn't be much aware about their surroundings, but this one was amazingly aware, interactive and social. I then learned she had been abused and that it would be common among abused babies to develop increased social and empathic abilities. Where normal ones would be inane.

 

I'm not saying children should be abused, but if never exposed to harshness they will never develop empathy, social abilities or many other useful traits.

 

What I did saw many a time when a kid was upset was to redirect their frustration constructively. They would constantly remind students that there is no failure, but learning opportunities, and teach them how to make their "perceived failures" into a great opportunity for success.

 

In short, I personally believe that all this discussion about being upset by a color or a failure is wrong from the ground up. There is no failure. Only vital experience. And what yo do with it is what makes all the difference. And what your teachers/educators teach you to do with that experience is what makes them good or bad, and you a more or less better person.

 

When someone stops using a color because it is deemed offensive by someone else who knows no better, that someone is doing the second one a feeble favor. When someone is able to teach you that color has no meaning and that it is up to you to make the most of it, and if possible shows you one or more ways to make a "profit" from the experience, that is a favor and a good lesson.

 

 

But then, my personal experience is certainly not universal and may not apply to other people. I started Medicine when I was 16, on the hardest school of the country to become one more among a couple hundred. I either learned to adapt or was away. BTW, it was also highly competitive, you couldn't trust the next guy (or gal), 'cos perhaps half of them were on the lookout to stab you in the back to increase their chances. Sometimes you don't even have the luxury of trust. You should always look for the best (and there is always something good everywhere [i must believe it to be a doctor]) even when you fully know there is no hope (we'll all die).

 

To the OP: Yes.

 

I do use colored ink to highlight, remark, underscore or simply to tell topics apart. Bright red is not particularly agreeable for long reading, which is why I prefer MB burgundy, Parker Penman Ruby or similar inks, but even so, Sheaffer Skripp red has its place to highlight important topics. I just do not care about colors or their "meaning" (they are pigments, not figments of imagination), only their utility.

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

Perhaps I am too old too get caught up in this discussion, but I see these colors as informational rather than attitudinal.

 

My wife bought me a Retro 51 fountain pen when we were on vacation as a remembrance of the time on Cape Cod. It was labeled Black Cherry, so I bought a bottle of Private Reserve Black Cherry ink to be used exclusively in that pen. No intention implied other than a color match.

My point exactly.

 

Also, I have a Burgundy Parker "51" and I have a mental block that insists I use a burgundy ink with it! I can't bring myself to use a bright blue in that pen! It's one of the advantages of black or grey pens; I have no colour hang ups with those pens!

 

@ITHINKIHAVEAPROBLEM

 

I don't disagree with anything in your last post. Only a few parts of it are about teachers and students. I keep trying to get this back onto learning in the classroom in the dynamic between teacher and student.

 

By "pressure" on a teacher, what do you mean? Pressure from a boss/administrator? Or do you mean the emotional state of the student? Or something else? You must know that adult workers get requests and mandates from superiors all the time (that's real world stuff, right?). Is that what you mean? It's wrong for a boss to request this of a teacher?

 

By pressured I mean, as an example, when I was working, with adults in a business environment (software development for what it's worth), and I sent a correction back to my QC dept.(https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/354488-does-anyone-use-red-ink-anymore/?p=4335173)

and the person complained. I was told by my boss to stop using red because it hurt someone's feelings.

That was asinine IMO and continues to be. Now, if I had been ASKED, politely to not use red, I would still have though the reason to be overblown from my personal perspective, but I would very likely have agreed to it in the interest of better cooperation. As stated in my original post, I only used red because it was the pen that was nearest at hand at the time!

 

If forbidding the use of red had been mandated because red was reserved for a certain dept, or position in the company, that would have made sense. It would allow easy identification of who wrote what. But to disallow red because it hurt someones' feelings was not logical. Lots of things hurt people's feelings!

 

For an excellent example of a teacher being pressured based on one persons emotional state see here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Shepherd

 

As an aside: the "that's real world stuff, right?" flippant response does not help your case, it weakens it by making your argument seem petty and antagonistic. But yes, as a career soldier, I believe I probably learned more about getting and giving orders in my 11 weeks of basic training than the average civilian will learn in a lifetime.

 

 

I will state it again.

I am not against using a colour other than Red for corrections. What I am against is being forced to do so based solely on protecting someones feelings in order to shelter them from reality.

[kazoolaw]

Feelings in a relationship in a classroom dynamic are not delusions. They are real and matter. Like feelings in a family relationship or a couple. Teachers have to be aware of this all the time and make adjustments to try to foster the most learning that he/she can. It's the center of the job. It's not pandering or coddling. It's the job!

 

 

 

Feelings are no doubt real, which is not the same as being well-founded, proportional, or even rational. I doubt that if your student "feels" that all of their work deserves an "A" that you would concede their position if the work didn't meet your standard. Feelings are a reaction, and sometimes people react poorly.

 

We have all been confronted with the wail "It's not fair!" Feelings of unfairness don't prove that the the action was unfair.

 

When facts collide with feelings at the student level the instructor needs to walk the student through the process.

 

There are so many issues that arise in this recurrent topic, each of which merits a thread of its own. But probably in chatter, not ink choices.

Edited June 29, 2020 by gary

[txomsy]

Actually, if you do change the color for corrections, either a ) it is the same as the written text and difficults to identify the corrections and hence, the learning process or b ) it is different and next time it will be the new color that will harm hypersensitive people feelings.

 

In any case changing the color does not address the cause of the problem and will not achieve anything constructive, only add an other layer of ostracism. If you want to cure the problem, address its roots, the hypersensitiveness of the hurt person: why should anyone be concerned by color? There must be some other reasons that, attached to it by previous experience make these people hurt, and it is these other reasons that should be addressed. Not color. Color is the symptom, not the disease.

 

Maybe they had bad experiences (a C grade in red) or good (an A+ in black, and not getting the notes in black hurts), maybe they do not know how to deal with frustration, maybe they are offended by other reasons, or have been told by perceived authorities it was bad, or not good. But nothing of that has anything to do with color. And it with that that they need help, not with outlawing a color.

 

I remember on another thread someone saying in early 20th C green was associated to madness. So, if someone writes in green (assuming it were true, which it isn't), should that person stop using green and go on with their madness, or should they get counsel from a psychiatrist? Stopping use of colors, words, etc.. only addresses the symptom and makes life poorer for everyone by forbidding use of things that could otherwise add greater value if well used.

Edited June 29, 2020 by txomsy

[Karmachanic]

So many shades of red.

How do we feel about red ties? Red socks.

 

I'm liking Oku-Yama this week

Edited June 29, 2020 by Karmachanic

[Astronymus]

You are correct in that red definitely gets attention. That's why stop signs are red, traffic lights have yellow and red, deficits in bookkeeping are red and why marking up papers is done in red.

There are blue traffic lights in Japan.

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

 

I remember on another thread someone saying in early 20th C green was associated to madness. So, if someone writes in green (assuming it were true, which it isn't), should that person stop using green and go on with their madness, or should they get counsel from a psychiatrist? Stopping use of colors, words, etc.. only addresses the symptom and makes life poorer for everyone by forbidding use of things that could otherwise add greater value if well used.

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-gre5.htm

the green ink brigade!

 

There are blue traffic lights in Japan.

this hurts my head...

[dms525]

never have

I recently got a bottle of Leonardo Red Passion with purchase of a pen and wonder what it's like...

 

It's really nice. It's in the brownish-red/Brick red palate I favor. Quite similar to Franklin-Christoph's "Urushi Red," if you know that ink.

 

David

[TSherbs]

My point exactly.

 

Also, I have a Burgundy Parker "51" and I have a mental block that insists I use a burgundy ink with it! I can't bring myself to use a bright blue in that pen! It's one of the advantages of black or grey pens; I have no colour hang ups with those pens!

 

 

By pressured I mean, as an example, when I was working, with adults in a business environment (software development for what it's worth), and I sent a correction back to my QC dept.(https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/354488-does-anyone-use-red-ink-anymore/?p=4335173)

and the person complained. I was told by my boss to stop using red because it hurt someone's feelings.

That was asinine IMO and continues to be. Now, if I had been ASKED, politely to not use red, I would still have though the reason to be overblown from my personal perspective, but I would very likely have agreed to it in the interest of better cooperation. As stated in my original post, I only used red because it was the pen that was nearest at hand at the time!

 

If forbidding the use of red had been mandated because red was reserved for a certain dept, or position in the company, that would have made sense. It would allow easy identification of who wrote what. But to disallow red because it hurt someones' feelings was not logical. Lots of things hurt people's feelings!

 

For an excellent example of a teacher being pressured based on one persons emotional state see here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Shepherd

 

As an aside: the "that's real world stuff, right?" flippant response does not help your case, it weakens it by making your argument seem petty and antagonistic. But yes, as a career soldier, I believe I probably learned more about getting and giving orders in my 11 weeks of basic training than the average civilian will learn in a lifetime.

 

 

I will state it again.

I am not against using a colour other than Red for corrections. What I am against is being forced to do so based solely on protecting someones feelings in order to shelter them from reality.

 

I am not being "flippant." I am pointing out what appears to me to be a heavy irony. Flippancy is a casual form of disrespect. I am not being casual, nor am I being disrespectful. I am capable of great flippancy and acidity; none of this is it.

 

At least we see now that you are referring to two cases where people were asked not to use red. I agree with you. But I consider those examples to be among a rare occurrence. It has never been mentioned by anyone in authority over me, or any other teacher I have known personally, in 35 years of teaching. That is not to say that it has *never* happened. Of course, it is bogus when it does. But calling student's feelings irrelevant, and using words like "pandering" and/or "coddling" is to really miss the mark in the other direction. And not in a flippant tone at all, I just want to point out that you have a grievance about the very thing you seem to be criticizing: unwarranted critique from a person of authority over you. This is just how students feel sometimes, but you have suggested more than once that they should get used to it because that is what the "real world" has to offer them: responses from authority figures that they don't like. There is nothing "flippant" in pointing this out. You should drop the personal aspersions here.

[dms525]

Reading this topic, Red clearly signifies passion - pro or con.

 

I really like red inks - bright "real" red for initial caps in calligraphy documents, brownish-red for everyday writing.

 

I was spared the trauma of school papers with lots of teachers' red ink, I guess. And my calligraphy mentor, Lloyd Reynolds, used a reddish-brown ink (Osmiroid Brown?) as a favorite. I believe he was the one who said," You only need two inks - black and red."

 

David

[TSherbs]

 

Feelings are no doubt real, which is not the same as being well-founded, proportional, or even rational. I doubt that if your student "feels" that all of their work deserves an "A" that you would concede their position if the work didn't meet your standard. Feelings are a reaction, and sometimes people react poorly....

 

Of course.

 

That is not what I was discussing here, and I have taken many pains, and many words, to elaborate on what I have specifically been referring to. I, for one, have not been discussing disputes over grades, or any other form of injustice or unfairness that a student might perceive. THOSE are entirely different matters and never mentioned by me.

 

I have repeatedly discussed how teachers--the adults in the scenario--are responsible for considering and adapting to student emotional states and needs in their teaching. I consider it unprofessional to dismiss this process as "pandering" or "coddling." Considering these things does not mean giving every student what he or she wants. It doesn't mean selling out or some other hyperbolic term of ethical corruption. It just means recognizing and adapting to the psychological status of the group in the room and the individuals in the room. The job is not for everyone: it is exhausting and frustrating and not well-paid. It requires much flexibility, reading of a room and its faces, and the ability to adapt on the fly. And sometimes, yes sometimes, even about changing the way we correct work.

[kazoolaw]

When combined with the fast writing style, it conveys a mode of being angry and hostile while reading the papers, especially on the courses that I was struggling.

 

You have combined the color of the ink with the rapid writing to interpret the note as angry and hostile. This is not the same as the author of the note being angry with you and hostile toward you. Your interpretation is more common in the classes that you have the hardest time with, and may be very frustrated.

 

The message you are "receiving" is not necessarily the message being sent.

 

gary

[TSherbs]

 

...And my calligraphy mentor, Lloyd Reynolds, used a reddish-brown ink (Osmiroid Brown?) as a favorite. I believe he was the one who said," You only need two inks - black and red."

 

David

 

Ha! I love it. Tell this to the Diamine corporation!

[kazoolaw]

If I pretend to be totally ignorant to the things I've just written above, I may have equally just asked:

 

- All you people who are "triggered" by people dislike grading using a red pen must have some need to assert their superiority so badly.

 

How does being labeled feel?

 

Being labeled incorrectly doesn't create any burden for me to carry.

[TSherbs]

The message you are "receiving" is not necessarily the message being sent.

 

gary

 

I know you wrote this to someone else.

 

But since I am an educator, I will respond: the intent of the message is not relevant to the pain that it causes. That I don't mean to hurt someone's feelings does not mean that I did not, and it does not mean that I was not wrong. We all make mistakes with good intentions. That I was thinking only at the time of marking every mistake that a young writer made so that she might improve her work does not mean that I did not overdo it and end up shutting her off from trying as hard on her next one.

 

That some people here continue to insist that the student receiving the corrections see them in the same manner in which they are intended (and I question the motives of some pedants) and that any other way of perceiving the interaction is somehow erroneous or misguided or even delusional (like seeing a red light as green) just makes my point about the importance of being able to see how trust is built with young people around schoolwork. It is a two-way street (I know, a tread-worn cliche).

[kazoolaw]

As long as blood, violence, STOP signs, negative numbers in accounting books and anything and everything negative is denoted by red in our world, this is very unlikely. It's about the meaning of red in this universe.

 

This is incorrect: everything red in the universe is not negative.

 

Santa Claus and St. Valentine both wear red. Red roses, red hearts, and valentines are symbols of love. Red is a symbol for love and passion.

 

Blood carries oxygen to the body, so that's a positive. "Red-blooded" means hearty, and vigorous. Red Bone is a type of dog. Red cars are sporty: think Ferrari.

 

Red lights and other warnings aren't negative, but designed to prevent harm.

 

Colors have different meanings in different cultures. I learned late in life that white in other cultures is associated with death.

 

All of which to say, your interpretation of "red" [isn't that a Taylor Swift album title?] may not correctly translate the message being sent.

Edited June 29, 2020 by gary

[txomsy]

I think that that is the point. Colors are just a physical phenomenon. No objective reason to avoid any of them.

 

The subjective meaning you attach to them is "yours", and not necessarily someone else's. We all should learn to respect other people choices, specially things like colors that do no real harm.

 

I remember when my father was on the verge of retirement and the "modern" teaching approach was strongly making its way into schools, he'd say he didn't care. When a student or father complained he would just talk to them and let them choose the grades on their own. Almost always -he said- they would maintain or even reduce the grades he had originally set. The secret? he just told them the reasons, how to turn it into an advantage, how to deal with frustration and what to expect in each ensuing scenario. He just confided in their responsibility. The lesson? When properly educated, most people -a hugely vast majority- takes the correct choice. Not easy, granted. By when he was doing that, he already had a lifelong experience in teaching. But not impossible either.

 

For me that is the meaning of "education": teach people to deal with frustration and make the correct choices by themselves, face life with an open attitude and be responsible. It is not about teaching how to get there first, crunch all opposition and forbid anything you don't like (specially when it comes from a supposed "authority" figure such as a teacher --and I say supposed because even that is subjective in our minds), Well, if you also learn how to deal with unreasonable people, that's an added bonus. Granted.

 

In our lives, we will feel we have "lost" more battles than we'll feel we have "won". In the end, just like colors are a neutral physical manifestation, "battles" are neutral as well. It is only in our imagination and due to our attitude that they are "won" or "lost". And if we can learn, or be taught to look beyond this foolery, we'll be able to appreciate the beauty and opportunities in everything.

 

In his poem "Une charogne" Baudelaire was able to see beauty -and most important, transmit it- in a carrion. That -IMMHO- is the attitude.

 

Not which color is associated to various events in our experience. I don't see any reason why anyone should feel sorry for using a color s/he used in their best intention because they thought it was appropriate.

 

With the appropriate disclaimers regarding widely known and approved shared cultural conventions.

[kazoolaw]

 

I know you wrote this to someone else.

 

But since I am an educator, I will respond: the intent of the message is not relevant to the pain that it causes. That I don't mean to hurt someone's feelings does not mean that I did not, and it does not mean that I was not wrong. We all make mistakes with good intentions. That I was thinking only at the time of marking every mistake that a young writer made so that she might improve her work does not mean that I did not overdo it and end up shutting her off from trying as hard on her next one.

 

 

 

Yes, intent is relevant to the pain a message causes. You say “Good morning,” and I reply “How could you be so hurtful?” No hurtful message, no hurtful intent. Any hurt created in that example is in the mind of the hearer. Intent to cause pain changes an inadvertently painful message into a mean, or evil, comment. Intent transforms negligence into a crime. Inferring intent to harm from a neutral message, where none exists, does not make the message hurtful. Feelings don't make facts.

We cannot communicate if the hearer is free to construct an interpretation which is not connected to the message. If I tell you that your response was excessive, erroneous, and spiteful and that you need to be silent, would you admit error and stop? If not, why not? Why aren’t my feelings as valid as the person offended by red ink? And you change to green ink, and the next student says "I’m offended by pens," use a pencil, would you?

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

I am not being "flippant." I am pointing out what appears to me to be a heavy irony. Flippancy is a casual form of disrespect. I am not being casual, nor am I being disrespectful. I am capable of great flippancy and acidity; none of this is it.

 

 

 

At least we see now that you are referring to two cases where people were asked not to use red. I agree with you. But I consider those examples to be among a rare occurrence. It has never been mentioned by anyone in authority over me, or any other teacher I have known personally, in 35 years of teaching. That is not to say that it has *never* happened. Of course, it is bogus when it does. But calling student's feelings irrelevant, and using words like "pandering" and/or "coddling" is to really miss the mark in the other direction. And not in a flippant tone at all, I just want to point out that you have a grievance about the very thing you seem to be criticizing: unwarranted critique from a person of authority over you. This is just how students feel sometimes, but you have suggested more than once that they should get used to it because that is what the "real world" has to offer them: responses from authority figures that they don't like. There is nothing "flippant" in pointing this out. You should drop the personal aspersions here.

well, I sure took it as a "casual disrespect". I didn't use the word flippant by accident.

 

and by your own words:

 

TSherbs, on 29 Jun 2020 - 15:28, said:

the intent of the message is not relevant to the pain that it causes. That I don't mean to hurt someone's feelings does not mean that I did not, and it does not mean that I was not wrong. We all make mistakes with good intentions.

that makes it YOUR fault.

 

interesting.

 

I would have been more than willing to accept the argument that "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent" ( https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/11035-no-one-can-make-you-feel-inferior-without-your-consent )

and that "You are not responsible for other's feelings" ( https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/enlightened-living/200805/the-myth-managing-emotions )

 

And accepted partial/whole responsibility for having jumped to conclusions.

 

But apparently you believe the fact I was insulted by misconstruing your intent, is YOUR fault, and not in fact due to my failure to stop, sit back and realize that I am be unable to read your mind and implicitly understand what you meant, despite thousands of KMs of distance, and the complete lack of any secondary queues like body language and tone of voice. The internet's biggest flaw is lack of secondary queues and lack of context IMO.

 

Your argument makes no sense to me. It is tantamount to blaming a band when a disturbed individual commits a murder and blames it on vague lyrics in a song. The listener bears some responsibility. Not necessarily all, but definitely Some. As you said, communication is a two way street.

 

Next, You seem very concerned with the words codling and pandering

 

coddle

 

verb

gerund or present participle: coddling

1.

treat in an indulgent or overprotective way.

 

 

pander

 

verb

gerund or present participle: pandering

gratify or indulge (an immoral or distasteful desire, need, or habit or a person with such a desire, etc.).

"newspapers are pandering to people's baser instincts"

 

 

 

I submit that changing the colour of ink used to mark a paper when the only reason is "because it makes them feel bad" (oversimplified/paraphrasing, i know), rather than simply explaining the intentions behind whatever was written as corrections, you are doing exactly that. Indulging and over protecting.

 

Furthermore, the only use of the word irrelevant in this thread was by you. In accusing others of treating students' feelings as being such.

No one seems to be saying their feelings don't MATTER, what we are saying is that they need to learn to DEAL with them.

 

And it's not just students who feel demoralized when they fail. Many people do. Myself included. The key is learning to deal with that failure.

 

https://blogs.psychcentral.com/imperfect/2016/03/how-to-help-your-kids-deal-with-defeat-disappointment-and-failure/

 

And yes, frankly,

"... but you have suggested more than once that they should get used to it because that is what the "real world" has to offer them: responses from authority figures that they don't like."

 

That is EXACTLY what I am saying. To do otherwise is back to coddling, ie: overprotecting.

The world will OFTEN offer them responses from authority figures that they don't like.

I'm not saying they have to ENJOY it, I certainly don't, as you so kindly pointed out.

But I accept that that is how things are, have been and will continue to be for the overwhelming majority of people.

 

One of the key lessons I learned as a leader is that at some point, I would HAVE to ORDER my troops to do something that I DID NOT agree with.

That is life. That is part of the burden of leadership.

 

Furthermore, sometimes I would order my troops to do something THEY did not agree with but that I felt was necessary.

At that point, I become the "authority figure" giving them a response they don't like. Again, that is life.

 

I've had a quote running through my head all day:

"Hard times create strong men.

Strong men create good times.

Good times create weak men.

And, weak men create hard times."

 

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/8751435-hard-times-create-strong-men-strong-men-create-good-times

 

Failing to teach children to learn to deal with disappointment makes them weak and places them at a disadvantage sociologically.

And as a consequence they will be overrun by those of stronger will. And ironically will lead to even more disappointment for them.

Edited June 29, 2020 by IThinkIHaveAProblem