Rhodia Overrated?

[linkoiram]

As I've gone from crappy printer paper to 28lb hp laser paper to rhodia and kokuyo campus notebooks, I've come to realize that I don't really like rhodia all that much. Sure it is nice paper and it makes inks shade and shimmering inks shine, but I feel that the slow ink absorption has the downside of making it feel like I'm writing on wax. Some of my pens, especially finer ones, skip on the paper (I'm assuming this is from having slight baby's bottom) at times and a medium nib can look too fine and unappealing.

 

Whereas the kokuyo paper is great, it is just as smooth as the rhodia and more absorbent, shows the ink shading and shimmer (not as well as rhodia) well enough, and my pens never skip. Are there any comparable brands of paper to this that I should look into? Are leuchtturm1917 notebooks or maruman mnemosyne notebooks closer in smoothness to kokuyo without the waxy coating?

Edited February 13, 2020 by linkoiram

[LizEF]

Paper is as personal a thing about this hobby as everything else therein. One of the best things I ever did was buy the Goulet Pens paper sample set:

 

https://www.gouletpens.com/collections/all-paper/products/notebook-sampler-package-set?variant=11899335376939

 

Since you already know you don't like Rhodia, it's probably not a good idea for you to buy it, but it's the same price as buying the individual notebooks, so you can just make your own. It uses all the mini notebooks/notepads from the various makers and styles, so for a pretty low price, you can try out a wide variety and see what you do and don't like.

 

I recommend you make your own mini set at your favorite retailer and try them out. I'm not sure my comparison of, say, Mnemosyne and Rhodia or Apica and Rhodia is going to do you that much good. But getting a bunch of $2 notepads to test will tell you for sure.

[ArchiMark]

Think you would like Leuchtturmm1917 better than rhodia. less of that waxy smoothness you refer to, a bit more tooth in comparison, but still fairly smooth. I like it a lot.

 

But as LizEF said, paper is a personal thing....

 

You have to try some papers out to know what you like.

[linkoiram]

Paper is as personal a thing about this hobby as everything else therein. One of the best things I ever did was buy the Goulet Pens paper sample set:

 

https://www.gouletpens.com/collections/all-paper/products/notebook-sampler-package-set?variant=11899335376939

 

Since you already know you don't like Rhodia, it's probably not a good idea for you to buy it, but it's the same price as buying the individual notebooks, so you can just make your own. It uses all the mini notebooks/notepads from the various makers and styles, so for a pretty low price, you can try out a wide variety and see what you do and don't like.

 

I recommend you make your own mini set at your favorite retailer and try them out. I'm not sure my comparison of, say, Mnemosyne and Rhodia or Apica and Rhodia is going to do you that much good. But getting a bunch of $2 notepads to test will tell you for sure.

Thanks, will do. I was considering that. Leuchtturm is available at the campus bookstore in a5 for cheaper than goulet so that would be an option but before that I'll try some sample memo pads.

[almoore]

Hi

 

Try John at Fountain Pen Love; his shop sells bundles of mixed papers and is a great way to try different papers without committing to full notebooks: https://fountainpenlove.com/shop/

 

Also depending upon the size of notebook you prefer Midori do a good range and I found the paper very good; GLP The Author is a good slim A5 notebook which uses Tomoe River paper. If you want a custom spec then try Good Inkpressions the range of options is great; they have an Etsy shop and their own website and if you want anything not listed then just ask, Nuria is very helpful.

 

Al

[senzen]

Not really, we each decides on our preferences, but not everyone sees all the benefits, it doesn't come down to just smoothness; while I really enjoy Tomoe River for instance, I really appreciate the vibrant colours with Clairefontaine, 32 lbs HP and yes, Rhodia. A bulb blower or fanning with a folded sheet of paper makes inks dry faster, my one ink that does take a lot longer even doing that is Orange Indien. Haven't used a blotter but that probably also helps.

[Rancho Gordo]

I'm with you. I thought I was nuts. I just don't like it. It feels spongy if that's possible. Much prefer Tomoe. My everyday book is a Leuchtturm1917.

We are lucky that there are so many options.

[migo984]

I dislike Rhodia too, and I’m not a fan of Clairefontaine notebooks either. I’d like to be able to afford Tomoegawa for my everyday notebooks, and I do use them for specific journalling purposes, but I can’t really justify the price for “scribbles”. So for me it’s Midori MD paper all the way; it’s just great for every ink I’ve used on it, and the aesthetic and form factor of their notebooks really suits me.

[linkoiram]

I dislike Rhodia too, and Im not a fan of Clairefontaine notebooks either. Id like to be able to afford Tomoegawa for my everyday notebooks, and I do use them for specific journalling purposes, but I cant really justify the price for scribbles. So for me its Midori MD paper all the way; its just great for every ink Ive used on it, and the aesthetic and form factor of their notebooks really suits me.

I want ot like midori but tbh it is too expensive for what it is. Apica seems more accessible because it is available in bigger sizes than a5 or b6,I find that a5 is fine for a notebook but borders on too small, and for a 15 dollar notebook a5 is simply not enough paper for the price. B5 seems the sweet spot for me, something smaller than standard 8.5 by 11 but bigger than a journal size. B5 seems more useful in terms of having real estate for class notes but I could see why a5 is preferable for personal notes and such.

 

Edit: now I realize that the leuchtturm is the same price as midori (which is why I haven't taken the plunge and gotten one yet)

Edited February 13, 2020 by linkoiram

[Mercian]

My own experience of the paper in Leuchtturm 1917 notebooks was that it wasn’t as enjoyable for me as the paper in Rhodia Webnotebooks.

 

I found that the Leuchtturm paper was far more likely to be susceptible to making the pen skip when writing over the bits of paper that have picked up the oils from one’s hand (although this can be easily avoided by resting one’s hand on e.g. a piece of blotting paper as one writes).

I also found that Waterman ‘Havana’ Brown faded really badly on it. It faded to a muddy reddish colour that, when I first look at it, reminds me of Port wine that has gone off. The ink normally looks a bit reddish anyway, but in a note from 2013 I didn’t even recognise it as ‘Havana’ when I looked back at it just now.
That said, confusingly, Parker Quink ‘Washable Blue’ has retained its colour on my Leuchtturms. QWB is normally the worst fader on ‘bad’ paper, so maybe it’s just the ‘Havana’? E.g. Diamine ‘Chocolate’ Brown hasn’t faded at all in the same notebook.

 

I must add that other inks did get on superbly with the paper in my Leuchtturms - e.g. Pelikan Edelstein Topaz, Lamy Turquoise, Diamine Royal Blue, and Diamine Imperial Purple all still look absolutely lovely on it.

 

As others have said, one’s preferences in paper are just as idiosyncratic as one’s tastes in inks and one’s preferences for nibs, and so one must try different paper until one finds one that suits those preferences.

 

I also would advise you to try to obtain samples of the paper.
And make sure that you pay attention to e.g. the spacing of line-ruling. I recently ‘wasted’ a whole notebook purchase because, when buying an example of a brand that I have been using for years, I failed to notice that the company had narrowed the line spacing.
The paper was still just as FP-friendly, but the line-spacing had gone from 7mm (which I like) down to 6mm (which is too narrow for my handwriting).

 

Good luck

[migo984]

I want ot like midori but tbh it is too expensive for what it is. Apica seems more accessible because it is available in bigger sizes than a5 or b6,I find that a5 is fine for a notebook but borders on too small, and for a 15 dollar notebook a5 is simply not enough paper for the price. B5 seems the sweet spot for me, something smaller than standard 8.5 by 11 but bigger than a journal size. B5 seems more useful in terms of having real estate for class notes but I could see why a5 is preferable for personal notes and such.

 

Edit: now I realize that the leuchtturm is the same price as midori (which is why I haven't taken the plunge and gotten one yet)

Apica & Life Noble Notebooks are expensive here in the U.K. Leuchtturm is nowhere near as FP-friendly as Midori.

[linkoiram]

My own experience of the paper in Leuchtturm 1917 notebooks was that it wasnt as enjoyable for me as the paper in Rhodia Webnotebooks.

 

I found that the Leuchtturm paper was far more likely to be susceptible to making the pen skip when writing over the bits of paper that have picked up the oils from ones hand (although this can be easily avoided by resting ones hand on e.g. a piece of blotting paper as one writes).

 

I also found that Waterman Havana Brown faded really badly on it. It faded to a muddy reddish colour that, when I first look at it, reminds me of Port wine that has gone off. The ink normally looks a bit reddish anyway, but in a note from 2013 I didnt even recognise it as Havana when I looked back at it just now.

That said, confusingly, Parker Quink Washable Blue has retained its colour on my Leuchtturms. QWB is normally the worst fader on bad paper, so maybe its just the Havana? E.g. Diamine Chocolate Brown hasnt faded at all in the same notebook.

 

I must add that other inks did get on superbly with the paper in my Leuchtturms - e.g. Pelikan Edelstein Topaz, Lamy Turquoise, Diamine Royal Blue, and Diamine Imperial Purple all still look absolutely lovely on it.

 

As others have said, ones preferences in paper are just as idiosyncratic as ones tastes in inks and ones preferences for nibs, and so one must try different paper until one finds one that suits those preferences.

 

I also would advise you to try to obtain samples of the paper.

And make sure that you pay attention to e.g. the spacing of line-ruling. I recently wasted a whole notebook purchase because, when buying an example of a brand that I have been using for years, I failed to notice that the company had narrowed the line spacing.

The paper was still just as FP-friendly, but the line-spacing had gone from 7mm (which I like) down to 6mm (which is too narrow for my handwriting).

 

Good luck

Are the rhodia stapled notebooks and dot pads the same paper as the we notebooks?

[Mercian]

Are the rhodia stapled notebooks and dot pads the same paper as the we notebooks?

 

The paper in the Webbies is cream/ivory, while that in the two head-stapled bloc pads that I have (No. 13 & No. 18) is white.

I only have lined paper, not dot-grids, but I believe that the dot-gridded paper is the same as the lined paper.

 

Apart from the colour, both bloc pads and the Webbies contain the same smooth, coated, 80gsm ‘High Grade Vellum’ paper, and I find that they give the same properties (feel under the nib, bleed resistance etc) when writing.

 

[Edit]

Please ignore the above bit that I have now struck through.

 

LizEF (post below this one) is dead right.

The two bloc pads I have contain white ‘High Grade Vellum’ 80gsm (21.3lb) paper.

 

The Webbies contain 90gsm “ivory brushed vellum paper made by Clairefontaine”.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Mercian

[LizEF]

Are the rhodia stapled notebooks and dot pads the same paper as the we notebooks?

 

Depends which stapled pad you get - there are "premium" and "classic". Premium are 90gsm ivory. Classic are 80gsm white. They feel different and writing on them is different. The webbies and Rhodiarama use the premium paper. There are tiny "premium" pads you can use to test the paper before buying a webbie, Rhodiarama, or larger pad.

[linkoiram]

 

Depends which stapled pad you get - there are "premium" and "classic". Premium are 90gsm ivory. Classic are 80gsm white. They feel different and writing on them is different. The webbies and Rhodiarama use the premium paper. There are tiny "premium" pads you can use to test the paper before buying a webbie, Rhodiarama, or larger pad.

Might be worth trying a premium pad, it isn't like I hate rhodia, I use it to test pens for how wet they are and the properties of them are great, just not as practical as a more absorbent pad for day to day writing imo. Thanks for all the input guys, I thought I was crazy

[Intensity]

Definitely a personal preference issue. Rhodia is more accessible in the western markets and available in a lot of stores, which adds to its popularity. I dont care much for it personally, but my least favorite of the recommended staple papers is Clairefontaine 90g type.

 

Nowadays I only use Fabriano Bioprima and various Japanese paper, like Tomoe River 52g, Kokuyo, Nakabayashi Logical (prime and Swing), to some extent Maruman which I like less than the others.

[DilettanteG]

I thought I'd add my two cents, just because I've spent so much time on trying to find what works for me and my ridiculous search for my perfect, Cinderella paper. Warning, it's about to get pretty pedantic up in here.

 

I think this really comes down to taste when you get paper of sufficiently high quality. For me, I dislike tooth on my paper and prefer wet usually broader or flex nibs. So, dry times can't be excessive. I like lined paper, preferably large enough to accommodate my love of broader cursive italics and stubs. Plus, my daily portfolios are set up for lined, top stapled (not glued, as they seem to fail over time) pads with micro perforations. I'd love a variety of colors, but cream or white are a nice way to break up the monotony. I don't mind paying a premium, but over about $15 with tax and shipping is too much for pads that I go thru pretty quickly.

 

 

The Clairefontaine paper is lovely, but the glue failed and the block of paper kept falling out of my portfolio.

 

I gave the Leuchtturm a shot, even though it's bound in a notebook and it smeared and left a lot of ink on the facing page as soon as I closed it.

 

Tomoe River doesn't seem to come lined and it's pricey here in California.

 

Graphic Image makes great journals, but not pads.

 

So, I ended up with:

 

-White 80g lined letter sized (A4) Rhodia pads (I just ordered a dozen from Cult pens) with the white "ice" cover for my black leather portfolios.

 

-Cream 90g lined letter sized (A4) Rhodia pads (I also ordered a dozen from Cult pens) with the chocolate color cover. It matches my dark brown portfolios.

 

-White 100g Freeleaf Luxe lined/box letter sized Levenger brand pads. The Luxe seems to be because of the gold gilt edges, but they also make an FP version with blotter pages. The Luxe just happened to be really cheap on their eBay outlet. I use this for notes and To Do lists.

 

-For Journals, I'm pretty happy with my Graphic Image 9" leather hardbound with cream or blue paper. Plus a few pocket sized Smythson notebooks with their featherweight lined blue pages. Both are definite indulgences though, so they're a bit hard on the wallet.

 

I haven't tried the Midori. Do they come in pads?

[linkoiram]

Got a pack of custom sheets from fountainpenlove with both types of tomoe GSM, maruman, apica premium, clairefontaine triomphe, leuchtturm, midori MD, and life noble so we will see how those are. About the same price as the Goulet pack but more variety with less pages, more ideal for trying out a bunch of types but the apica will be nicer than the regular apica but we will see. It appears the apica cd15 and kokuyo semi b5 campus are very similar in properties, maybe less bleed through with apica, but we will see.

[A Smug Dill]

I haven't tried the Midori. Do they come in pads?

 

Yes.

 

 

Definitely a personal preference issue. Rhodia is more accessible in the western markets and available in a lot of stores, which adds to its popularity.

 

Hear, hear!

 

I think Rhodia has cleverly managed to position itself as a brand of premium paper products without being either exclusive (by exorbitant prices, or by how few outlets there are for its retail products) or specialised (for fountain pen use and/or as an art supply). I see them in bricks-and-mortar stores such as Dymocks (probably the most recognisable national chain of books and stationery stores here in Australia), Officeworks, Kinokuniya, and even some newsagents (in Sydney CBD as well as relatively 'hip' suburbs) all the time, and it doesn't seem out of place for all sorts of everyday use. On the other hand, it's French (with all the connotations of being of better quality compared to the average made-in-China paper product), it's actually pretty good (unlike bloody Moleskine, which seems to pursue a similar strategy), and it isn't seen as common (even among, say, college students). It's the sort of notepad or journal that junior executives can get away with ordering on the company's stationery budget for office use, or well-paid professionals can just pick one up conveniently (at their own expense) when they need a new one.

 

It's also seems to be quite universal, at least in Western markets, as you say. I saw them in retail stores in New Zealand, USA, and most of the European countries that I've visited. While HP is probably more recognisable worldwide as a brand name, mentioning "28lb" or "32lb" paper outside USA would almost automatically cause it to lose relevance for consumers; so, even for an English-speaking online forum with global membership, HP 32lb paper would be a narrow choice to use as something that is relatable to the vast numbers of fountain pen users in Europe, Oceania and Asia; whereas Rhodia (and Clairefontaine, Leuchtturm1917, and sadly Moleskine too) would be more useful as a shared frame of reference in discussions. If "office printer paper" is the common ground being sought, and narrow geographical relevance is considered to be of little concern, I'd have to go with Reflex paper (even though I don't normally use it), because that is probably the most recognised brand name of photocopy/laser printer paper here.

 

It's a shame that Japanese brands in general don't seem as keen to establish more of a market presence outside of Japan.

[TheDutchGuy]

It's a shame that Japanese brands in general don't seem as keen to establish more of a market presence outside of Japan.

 

 

Indeed.

 

About Rhodia: I’m not keen on the brand. The difference between the front and back of the pages is major. In Europe, I feel that Oxford rules the roost. It costs significantly less than Rhodia, is utterly consistent, can be obtained in a wide variety of formats and is just a pleasure to use.