Mabie Todd Cadet?

[Thy]

Hello, I recently found some NOS Mabie Todd Cadet pens mysteriously showing up on sites like Ebay and Etsy. Considering that I couldn't actually find any "used" Cadets on those sites, are these actually Mabie Todd pens, or just knockoffs? They look a lot like copies of the 1st gen Parker Vacumatics, right down to the cap and style, with the exception of them being eyedroppers. If they are, are they flexible?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Unused-Swan-Cadet-Mabie-Todd-co-Ltd-fountain-pen-India-Dark-Green-1/163747866183?hash=item2620222647:g:lIwAAOSwXFldDj9D

Edited June 25, 2019 by Thy

[Cob]

That is nothing like any Mabie Todd pen that I have ever seen. The fake 1940s Parker-design clip is a dead giveaway.

 

And if it doe not have a gold nib it is definitely not a proper Mabie Todd pen. There has been, I know, some Indian production of very inferior examples.

 

Cob

[PaulS]

instinctively, and looking at the circumstances, it would seem unlikely to be connected to M.T. According to 'The English Fountain Pen Industry 1875 - 1975', this model name has been used at least a couple of times in the past - very early in the C20 and then somewhere nearer the middle for the well known Summit pen, but neither occasion related to M.T.

 

However, perhaps others will have a better idea.

Edited June 25, 2019 by PaulS

[eachan]

There have been various "Swans" over the years which were not made by Mabie Todd. The most recent producer of Swans is Jinhao but the pen you show looks older.

[shalitha33]

It looks like one of the Indian swan pens actually. i believe they were built under licence from Mabie Todd & Co very close to the point of collapse. Some one please do correct me here.

[Cob]

There were others which were distinctly better quality, probably of German manufacture.

Cob

[peterg]

I think it is a German Swan, at least a lot of them are for sale there.

[Thy]

Thanks for the replies! It's actually an Indian-made Mabie Todd fountain pen (doing some deeper research from other sellers) and is one of the cheapest models around! Sadly, because it's so cheap, I doubt it has any flex. Thanks for all the replies!

[Scrawler]

It looks like one of the Indian swan pens actually. i believe they were built under licence from Mabie Todd & Co very close to the point of collapse. Some one please do correct me here.

That is what I thought also.

[PaulS]

it might be thought odd that an e.d. should be made c. 1960 - assuming that's what is being implied by the last post - but believe I've seen comments before that sacs, in hotter locations, can be a problem, and pens without a sac are more practical. Am I correct in that assumption? :-)

 

In view of the suggestion that these were made under licence from M.T. (U.K.) - it's intriguing to speculate on the criteria that might, or might not, have been in place as to the degree of leeway that M.T. allowed in terms of design, yet still carry the trade mark names.

Perhaps at that stage in the life of M.T. they weren't too bothered, as shown by the earlier Parker clip design.

Edited June 27, 2019 by PaulS

[northlodge]

It will be interesting to see if the new Hull book makes any mention of these pens, I did not think to look when I had the draft in my hands;-)

 

The real question is whether such an item is of interest to a MT collector?

I would certainly be interested in a genuine Summit branded item made under license in Mumbai.

[Greenie]

It will be interesting to see if the new Hull book makes any mention of these pens, I did not think to look when I had the draft in my hands;-)

 

The real question is whether such an item is of interest to a MT collector?

I would certainly be interested in a genuine Summit branded item made under license in Mumbai.

 

I can only speak for myself, but I just don't have an interest in these. It is an academic question if they "should" be included in a Swan book, or if they can be neglected for the same reasons that collectors likely do not have an interest in the new "Mabie Todd" pens from Fountain Pen Hospital.

[PaulS]

agree with those sentiments, though it might be of academic interest to receive a mention in said book insofar as it would provide the answer to those people, in the future, who might ask the same question that has prompted this thread.

[Cob]

it might be thought odd that an e.d. should be made c. 1960 - assuming that's what is being implied by the last post - but believe I've seen comments before that sacs, in hotter locations, can be a problem, and pens without a sac are more practical. Am I correct in that assumption? :-)

 

In view of the suggestion that these were made under licence from M.T. (U.K.) - it's intriguing to speculate on the criteria that might, or might not, have been in place as to the degree of leeway that M.T. allowed in terms of design, yet still carry the trade mark names.

Perhaps at that stage in the life of M.T. they weren't too bothered, as shown by the earlier Parker clip design.

As Mabie Todd was absorbed by Biro in 1952, I imagine that the Biro company was, by the end of the 1950s profoundly uncaring about MT's heritage and therefore did not care what was produced under the name - sadly.

 

Cob

Edited June 28, 2019 by Cob

[northlodge]

I have now been advised that this very model appears on page 325 of the new book, along with some other examples from the same production line. The item was indeed made under licence, so is arguably every bit as legit as a 1940's Valentine made Parker or Lang made Conway Stewart.

 

Of course the other point to note is that this imminent publication stretches to at least 325 pages!!

[PaulS]

glad to hear that discrimination at least isn't at work on this magnum opus. My only fear is that I sense some depression coming when I do eventually open the book and see those models that for some reason aren't in my collection - and probably never will be.

 

P.S. However, I'm comforted to know that there will be one of mine on show.

Edited June 28, 2019 by PaulS

[shalitha33]

I am not sure when these cadet pens stopped production actually. License (if there was) may have stretched beyond the end of mabie todd UK. I could recall using one at school in Sri Lanka in the early 90s. it was purchased as new from a store , but on its clearance lot. It could have sat there for 10s of years , made in 50s would be a very long stretch though.

 

Back then it was just a pen, compared to the other Hero pens i was using, cant recall it being especially good, or bad. Probably have some bits and pieces of somewhere around. have to look for it and see if it really was a MT.

Edited June 29, 2019 by shalitha33

[butch46]

I am relatively new to serious pen collecting (but have been picking them up here & there for about 10 years), and as a newbie I am not familiar with the Hull book and where to get one.

 

As for that "M-T Cadet", I think I have on of those somewhere around the house, and figured it to be a Chinese knock-off inasmuch as the real Mabie Todd faded into the sunset some 60 years ago and the one I found was not that old.

[SchaumburgSwan]

I am relatively new to serious pen collecting (but have been picking them up here & there for about 10 years), and as a newbie I am not familiar with the Hull book and where to get one.

...

 

Hi,

 

Stephen Hull's book has not been released yet... we'll have to wait 'til Oktober 2019.

Or preorder the limited edition...

More here: https://www.englishpenbooks.co.uk/home/the-swan-pen/

 

Best

Jens