Emptying A Pen Into The Bottle Of Ink

[bguigz]

Quick practical newbie question.

 

If I want to change the ink of a pen still relatively full, is it safe to empty it in the bottle from which the ink came from (mixing it with the ink remaining in the bottle, the same one) or do I have to throw it into the sink to avoid any kind of... "contamination" ?

 

To in advance

[mauckcg]

I dump it back in with the ink it came from. No sense wasting still good ink.

[sansenri]

second suggestion is really better...

or at least there is a third suggestion, don't dump it back into the original ink bottle, use an empty reclosable container, a small bottle or jar with cap, preferably glass, and label it.

You can then later use the left over ink by recovering it with a syringe.

Why not empty it back in the original bottle? exactly for the reason you said. It is possible that the ink may have been contaminated, either chemically (by contact with a previous ink that was in the pen) or biologically by bacteria.

It's an unlikely event that the amount of contamination may affect you ink, but it can happen.

In the first case, chemical contamination, depending on what came in contact with it, a precipitate may form when you return it to the bottle (in case of different ink pH for example), in the second case, bacterial/micotic contamination, mold could form in your ink bottle. In both unlikely cases however your full bottle would be ruined...

I don't usually risk it.

Sometimes I only half fill my pens when I know I will likely change ink soon, other times I use the spare bottle method, and either fill other pens with the leftover or use it for mixing experiments.

I don't like waisting ink either.

 

[stenolearner]

You cannot do this with Iron-Gall ink (encre métallo-gallique) - ink which works by a chemical reaction with air. The ink in the pen has been exposed to air, so some of the stabilizing ingredients have been depleted. Emptying the pen back into the bottle may result in sediment forming. See http://kwzink.com/language/en/manufactured-inks/iron-gall-inks/fountain-pens-iron-gall/ for more information.

 

Most inks are not iron-gall (you can tell because they are not waterproof), so this is not really a concern in most cases.

Edited December 3, 2018 by stenolearner

[Tweel]

I've occasionally emptied a still-full pen back into the bottle. My own concern, such as it is, is that the ink may have darkened and concentrated while in the pen and might affect the tint.

 

Biological contamination doesn't really worry me, realistically. If the bottle of ink was manufactured outside of a clean room, and if I've ever opened it outside of a clean room and without proper prep beforehand, then it's already loaded with spores. That's why the manufacturer puts biocides in the ink.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Tweel

[bobje]

Tweel,

this is an interesting and realistic perspective, one I’ve never heard. Thank you.

[kestrel]

I've occasionally emptied a still-full pen back into the bottle. My own concern, such as it is, is that he ink may have darkened and concentrated while in the pen and might affect the tint.

 

Biological contamination doesn't really worry me, realistically. If the bottle of ink was manufactured outside of a clean room, and if I've ever opened it outside of a clean room and without proper prep beforehand, then it's already loaded with spores. That's why the manufacturer puts biocides in the ink.

Not all spores, bacteria, and other SITB organisms are equal. There are different strains depending on location and some may have evolved resistance to the biocide used by Brand X ink. I usually write my pens dry but, when I don't, the unused ink goes in a sample vial or the sink depending on the reason the fill wasn't finished. Most ink is reasonably inexpensive. It's not worth the risk of infecting a pen with something nasty or spreading the wee beastie to other bottles of ink just to save a few pennies on a 1 or two mL fill.

 

The equation changes a bit for something like Penman Sapphire or Wirt Blue Black. For rare/expensive inks the pen is filled from a sample vial (sterilized) that was filled with ink transferred from the original bottle by sterile syringe and unused ink (rare but it happens) goes back in the vial, not the bottle.

 

I have seen SITB twice. Both times the infection was stopped after one pen and didn't spread to other inks.

[bguigz]

Somehow, I knew it wouldn't be that easy 😁

 

Even though it might still not be that much of an issue : in my case, it is black ink, Iroshizuki Take Sumi to be precise, so I'm not too worried about the color (the bottle is almost full, it was my first full).

 

And yes, half filling the pen would have been the way to go here.

[ParkerDuofold]

Somehow, I knew it wouldn't be that easy 😁

 

Hi Bguigz,

 

Is it ever?

 

 

Anyhoo, my issue with dumping ink back in the bottle is this:

 

Make 130% sure you're dumping the ink back into the CORRECT bottle! You can ruin the bottle if you don't.

 

For example, I dumped a near full converter of some blue ink into my bottle of Pelikan 4001 Royal Blue... thinking that was the ink... and now my Pelikan RB is no longer erasable.

 

With some inks... the outcome can be even worse.

 

Be well.

 

 

- Anthony

[sansenri]

"That's why the manufacturer puts biocides in the ink."

That's true, but these substances are harmful, so ink manufactures have to strike a right balance.

Legislation is getting stricter on the use of biocides, this is one of the reasons why some inks had to be reformulated when the preservative they used became no longer approved by authorities, in the amount that was preserving the ink. So some formulations either had to reduce the biocide (reducing protection), or change it altogether. (this also changes country by country)

As in many other sectors, the use of preservatives contained in products which contain substances that potentially can be contaminated by bacteria or yeasts, is calculated based on the product wanted shelf life, and the times the product will be opened and re-closed before it's used up. As everyone uses ink differently, this type of use is estimated as an average.

Any product that contain water can potentially be contaminated when opened, and contamination greatly depends on how many times the product is opened and re-closed.

I have never seen an ink production line, but I am rather sure that industrially made ink undergoes stability testing.

Which means that samples of the ink will be stored at different temperatures to determine any changes to the ink properties with time, and very likely in use testing will also be run, which means that regular opening and reclosing of the ink (possibly reproducing a pen filling step) will also be set up to determine the amount of contamination or ink alteration (colour and other properties) after a determined time.

 

I am reasonably sure that most of the time ink is well preserved (clearly, allowed biocides will be in concentration much higher than would be allowed in anything that has to be ingested or placed in contact with the body) but exceptions could happen, so best practice would suggest not to risk it. The spare bottle method allows to avoid risk and not to waste the ink, unless it's stored for very long, in which case it will dry out...

 

[inkstainedruth]

Interesting thread. While I mostly agree with what has been said as far as not emptying the ink directly back into the bottle, I do have some thoughts/questions.

1. Most times, when you're filling a pen, it takes more than one attempt to fill it completely, due to capillary action. This happens no matter what type of fill system it has. So in some respects you're filling and dumping ink back into the bottle more than once to begin with (no matter whether the pen started off empty/clean or you're just refilling from the same bottle). Isn't this running the risk of contamination as well?

2. Even if you close the bottle up as soon as you're done filling (even before wiping the nib), aren't you getting *some* potential contamination just from the surroundings? I don't know know about the rest of yinz, but I don't live in a clean room.... There's always going to be a little bit of dust/cat hair, etc., in the environment, isn't there? Not to mention on the cloth/tissue/paper towel you're wiping the nib with afterwards (as well as possibly leaving lint or bits of material from the wiping material itself)? Doesn't that have the potential of ending up in the bottle?

3. I don't know how OCD other people are about flushing pens out, but how much of that little bit of "not running clear" is an issue when you go to refill the pen -- especially when changing inks?

4. What about switching from an almost empty bottle to a new one -- even if it's the same brand/color? Is pouring into a sample vial a better way to save the leftover ink from the old bottle "safer" when the ink is too low in the bottle to refill a pen (other than if you have something like a Snorkel, or pull a converter and fill it directly)?

Just some thoughts to put out there, that came to me as I was reading this thread. Especially since I'm the one who reconstitutes dried ink with distilled water in my Parker 61s.... Oh, and that's another potential contaminant, isn't it? That capillary filler?

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[kestrel]

Interesting thread. While I mostly agree with what has been said as far as not emptying the ink directly back into the bottle, I do have some thoughts/questions.

1. Most times, when you're filling a pen, it takes more than one attempt to fill it completely, due to capillary action. This happens no matter what type of fill system it has. So in some respects you're filling and dumping ink back into the bottle more than once to begin with (no matter whether the pen started off empty/clean or you're just refilling from the same bottle). Isn't this running the risk of contamination as well?

This is why I only fill from sample vials. Pens never touch the ink in the bottle.

2. Even if you close the bottle up as soon as you're done filling (even before wiping the nib), aren't you getting *some* potential contamination just from the surroundings? I don't know know about the rest of yinz, but I don't live in a clean room.... There's always going to be a little bit of dust/cat hair, etc., in the environment, isn't there? Not to mention on the cloth/tissue/paper towel you're wiping the nib with afterwards (as well as possibly leaving lint or bits of material from the wiping material itself)? Doesn't that have the potential of ending up in the bottle?

All true but you can minimize the risk by using the vials. FYI I share my home with more than a dozen cats and their litter boxes. I don't live in a clean room, either.

3. I don't know how OCD other people are about flushing pens out, but how much of that little bit of "not running clear" is an issue when you go to refill the pen -- especially when changing inks?

On an OCD scale of 1 to 10 where Adrian Monk is an 8 I probably come in around a 5. I ramp up to an 8 when cleaning out any of the Baystate inks or planning to fill with a Baystate. It hasn't made a difference with normal inks.

4. What about switching from an almost empty bottle to a new one -- even if it's the same brand/color? Is pouring into a sample vial a better way to save the leftover ink from the old bottle "safer" when the ink is too low in the bottle to refill a pen (other than if you have something like a Snorkel, or pull a converter and fill it directly)?

I use a vial for the dregs. If there isn't enough in the vial to fill one of my lever/crescent/touchdown/blow/button fillers I either use another pen or add a little bit of ink from the new bottle.

Who am I kidding? I have finished four bottles of ink in the last 15 years but you get the idea.

 

Just some thoughts to put out there, that came to me as I was reading this thread. Especially since I'm the one who reconstitutes dried ink with distilled water in my Parker 61s.... Oh, and that's another potential contaminant, isn't it? That capillary filler?

I shall defer to others with more experience with the 61.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[langere]

Ruth, I agree with you. Filling any pen from the bottle means that there is some potential contamination. I have never had a bottle go bad after using it. but then I also clean my pens pretty well and they are fully dry for many days before I put ink into them.

 

Erick

[dan in montreal]

Unless it's a piston-filler or an ED pen with a very large ink capacity, I don't see why you would want to do this. A standard converter contains between 0.8 ml and 0.9 ml of ink, right? The stuff you're putting back in the bottle after using the pen for a while is minimal, no? I'm assuming you've used some of it, some may have evaporated, there is ink that's left in the feed after you push it out... How much are you really putting back in? 0.4 ml? 0.3ml? Even if it's harmless, why take a risk, even if it's a very small one?

Some inks are really expensive - I would not do it.

Edited December 5, 2018 by dan in montreal

[Runnin_Ute]

I have been known to do it both ways. So far, I have been fortunate and not had any SITB in any of my inks. Although I am more likely to dump what little is left anymore down the sink.

 

The only hard to find ink I currently have is Levenger Pomegranate which was discontinued a few years ago. Looked and looked, could never find another bottle. Then had one fall in my lap this fall. Sure, it was about half a bottle, but still. I might be more likely to transfer to a vial or something rather than dump.

[tamiya]

Hang on... why's there need to unfill a pen?

 

If you like that pen, own multiples!

 

Want to try another ink, grab a clean pen from the cleaned pencup.

 

(hmm... ok, i seem to have 28 inked up pens lying on desk right now... yeah our local Pen Show weekend before, brought back some new colours etc etc)

[eharriett]

If it is a c/c pen, I’ll put back into the bottle. Each of those pens are thoroughly cleaned after each use and ink before an ink change.

 

If it is a piston. Or vintage pen with a sac in it, if I choose to dump (which I will do if the ink just isn’t fun anymore at this moment, or I want something else in that pen), I’ll dump. I try my best to clean out vintage pens, but they are never 100% cleared. To do a fill with a dry pen is pretty safe, but once the insides are wet, whatever is still in the pen could transfer back into the bottle. If that ever concerns me, I’ll fill from a small ink transfer cup, but even then I’ll most like be throwing a little away if I want to keep the bottle clear.

 

Perspective: ink is not that expensive. I am usually only that super-careful with vintage inks when I fill with those. Newer, non limited edition inks in regular production I might just not care.

[77kath]

I don't. Partly because I can't always remember which ink is in the pen, and partly because I have had SITB more times than I want to count. Not worth taking a chance for such a small amount of ink.

[sansenri]

Interesting thread. While I mostly agree with what has been said as far as not emptying the ink directly back into the bottle, I do have some thoughts/questions.

1. Most times, when you're filling a pen, it takes more than one attempt to fill it completely, due to capillary action. This happens no matter what type of fill system it has. So in some respects you're filling and dumping ink back into the bottle more than once to begin with (no matter whether the pen started off empty/clean or you're just refilling from the same bottle). Isn't this running the risk of contamination as well?

2. Even if you close the bottle up as soon as you're done filling (even before wiping the nib), aren't you getting *some* potential contamination just from the surroundings? I don't know know about the rest of yinz, but I don't live in a clean room.... There's always going to be a little bit of dust/cat hair, etc., in the environment, isn't there? Not to mention on the cloth/tissue/paper towel you're wiping the nib with afterwards (as well as possibly leaving lint or bits of material from the wiping material itself)? Doesn't that have the potential of ending up in the bottle?

3. I don't know how OCD other people are about flushing pens out, but how much of that little bit of "not running clear" is an issue when you go to refill the pen -- especially when changing inks?

4. What about switching from an almost empty bottle to a new one -- even if it's the same brand/color? Is pouring into a sample vial a better way to save the leftover ink from the old bottle "safer" when the ink is too low in the bottle to refill a pen (other than if you have something like a Snorkel, or pull a converter and fill it directly)?

Just some thoughts to put out there, that came to me as I was reading this thread. Especially since I'm the one who reconstitutes dried ink with distilled water in my Parker 61s.... Oh, and that's another potential contaminant, isn't it? That capillary filler?

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

All your doubts are theoretically true and correct, Ruth

1) yes it does increase risk of contamination, however, some opening/closing is calculated and protection is given by the biocide

2) same as above

3) chemical contamination is usually less harmful than biologic, unless the chemicals are very different (many inks are similar) and concentrated. When you wash, you reduce to the minimum the concentration of the previous ink, thus reducing further the risk of reaction with each time you wash.

4) if the bottle has been correctly stored risk should be minimum, however, I usually do use either a converter or a syringe to empty the last drops from a bottle, it does depend also on how old the bottle is (several of my bottles are now years old...) and especially on how many times it has been opened.

Reconstituting dried ink is usually quite ok, lack of water will stop any biologic proliferation!

Edited December 6, 2018 by sansenri